Topic: NWR Game Club #2: Metroid: Other M

[Chocobo_Rider]

I'm spent.

People need more Sakamoto here, less there, more Team Ninja, no Team Ninja, they say Fusion doesn't count, Fusion isn't accounted for enough, Sakamoto shouldn't author or supervise his own stories, and "Other M [was] critically panned" (79% on metacritic, 1M+ units sold).

There's no reasoning when people object to the reasons themselves!

Have fun, fellas.

[Adrock]

Miyamoto of all people had it changed to a first person camera? Is it known why he did that? I figured he'd want it to be third person.

He originally wanted Ocarina of Time to be 1st person as well. I recall an old interview where Miyamoto mentioned that 1st person was ideal for Metroid because there are a lot of enclosed spaces and corridors. I'd have to dig through a pile of old EGMs to find the exact quote.

There's no reasoning when people object to the reasons themselves!

And you're objecting to their reasoning. That's what makes it a discussion. That's (presumably) what we're all doing on an Internet message board in the first place. Welcome to the party. Glad you could make it.

[Luigi Dude]

I agree that Team Ninja did a great job on the game's production values. If the whole thing was left up to them, I'd bet money the game would have been better overall.

Considering how terrible Ninja Gaiden 3 ended up, this is completely false.  Other M and Ninja Gaiden 3 are the two new action games that Team Ninja made after Itagaki left.  Other M which Sakamoto told Team Ninja what to do ended up good, Ninja Gaiden 3 which Team Ninja did on their own, ended up bad.  People love to trash Sakamoto because of the storyline, but it's become very clear that his guidance at least kept Team Ninja in line so the gameplay itself didn't end up total sh!t like Ninja Gaiden 3 did when the current Team Ninja is left to work on their own.

It's like how other companies like Rare, Silicon Knights, Factor 5 and Next Level Games make good games when Nintendo designers are guiding them, but there's a huge drop in quality when they're left alone.  Sakamoto might have had some flawed idea's but he at least kept Team Ninja from making the game a total disaster like Ninja Gaiden 3 ended up being.

[Adrock]

Sakamoto was largely responsible for my favorite game ever: Super Metroid. I have no major issues with him as a game designer, just as a storyteller. Other M suffers because of its storytelling but nixing those elements leaves you with the closest we've ever seen to a traditional style Metroid game in 3D which is good or bad depending on who you ask. I liked the gameplay despite it mostly repositioning the camera to be a 3D game. It's no where near as refined as the Prime games but I didn't think it was bad, simply different. In terms of gameplay, I think there's a lot of untapped potential.

I harp on Sakamoto's faults as a storyteller but I understand the pressure he was under to move Metroid in that direction. With Fusion, he tried to accommodate players who hated feeling lost in Super Metroid's mostly subterranean world which fans scoffed at as intrusive handholding. He introduced more story elements because that was direction the industry was headed. That said, I think he should stick with what he's good at: being a game designer. He doesn't get everything right but pobody's nerfect.

[broodwars]

From everything I've heard about Ninja Gaiden 3, the "problems" with that game came from series fans not liking that Team Ninja tried to actually make the series accessible, rather than yet another game in the series made for the 1% of the gaming population skilled/masochistic enough to handle constant punishment.  Maybe they went about it the wrong way (such as stripping out all but one weapon, with the others returned later via free DLC), but they had the right idea and from all appearances they turned out an average game.

And really, Adrock?  You really think the man who gave us...

- No backtracking and minimal exploration in a Metroid game.
- Forced Wiimote-only 3D gameplay on a console that has an analog stick attachment.
- Terrible static 1st person shooting that requires you to flip the Wiimote, a process that apparently didn't always work for some gamers.
- "Pixel Hunt" first-person sequences.
- Pointless "slow-moving, over the shoulder" 3rd person sequences.

...was "being good at...being a game designer"? 

[Ian Sane]

Other M is actually bad enough for me to wonder how much credit Sakamoto deserves for Super Metroid.  Gunpei Yokoi used to get a lot of credit for the Metroid series but then as we became more familiar with who was involved, he was seen more as a general producer with Sakamoto doing the details.  Considering the post-Yokoi output, I wonder if Sakamoto needs someone to filter out his stupid ideas and Yokoi filled that role.

I liked Metroid Fusion but the whole time I couldn't help but feel that the game was too linear.  It still felt like Metroid and was still a good game but it was a bad sign in retrospect.  My feeling was that I could live with the series being this linear and story oriented but pushing it further than this would cross the line.

When someone who was seen as a creative genius appears to lose it, you can usually see it coming in hindsight.  You can look back at their earlier work and spot little clues.  You can spot signs of bad habbits that if they went wild would be a major problem.  You can see a bit of Phantom Menance in Star Wars and Heaven's Gate in The Deer Hunter.  Use Your Illusion in retrospect totally seems like the work of someone who would fuss around on an album for 15 years and alienate the rest of his band.  The downfall of Sonic was foretold in the Big the Cat segments of Sonic Adventure.  A minor flaw in a great piece of work can be a clue to the downfall of a later piece.

Metroid Fusion was the first Metroid game Sakamoto made without Yokoi and immediately he's trying to force the player on a linear path for the purposes of storytelling.  In retrospect it's the herald of Other M.  I think it's worth noting that this is his first Metroid game without Yokoi, suggesting that Yokoi reigned him in on this story stuff and that without him, Sakamoto had the freedom to go nuts.

Newfound freedom is usually what causes the "creative genius goes insane" phenomenon.  Usually they're reigned in by a partner or a producer or a publishing company or a limited budget or limited technology.  Something prevents them from doing what they REALLY want to do.  What they really want to do is self-indulgent hubris but someone or something prevents them from doing that and forces them into making something, you know, GOOD.  The "creative genius" is thus exposed as merely a cog in the machine that has some good ideas but needs some outside factor to filter out the crap.

[Adrock]

And really, Adrock?  You really think the man who gave us...

- No backtracking and minimal exploration in a Metroid game.
- Forced Wiimote-only 3D gameplay on a console that has an analog stick attachment.
- Terrible static 1st person shooting that requires you to flip the Wiimote, a process that apparently didn't always work for some gamers.
- "Pixel Hunt" first-person sequences.
- Pointless "slow-moving, over the shoulder" 3rd person sequences.

...was "being good at...being a game designer"? 

Yes. He's a good game designer. To me, Super Metroid is nearly flawless. I can't think of one bad thing to say about the game. I kind of wish it was longer but that might have affected the pacing. You're picking apart one game but his track record is pretty solid. I admit Other M is not perfect but the bulk of its gameplay is good. I had fun with it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Its like what happened to David Spade after Chris Farley died. The two of them had a dynamic which goes beyond what either of them were on their own, but then Farley died and now Spade is no longer funny and comes across as just an obnoxious asshole. Well, there are probably some who still find him funny obviously, because he still has a career, but we aren't seeing movies on par with Black Sheep from him these days.

It was a shame Gunpei Yokoi died like he did and when he did, but even if he lived his days at Nintendo were over, and if I'm not mistaken he would be in his 80s now, so whether he lived or not he still wouldn't be able to reign in Sakamoto and tell him "this is stupid. Don't do that!". Sakamoto is like a little kid and needs that sort of supervision, because without it things end up taking a turn towards stupidity.

In a way Gunpei Yokoi was like the Adam Malkovich to Sakamoto, both Gunpei and Adam end up dying at the end and both Samus and Sakamoto are left without their father figure to supervise them and they are forced to be independent. Is it at all possible that the Adam Malkovich character might have somehow been an homage to Gunpei Yokoi? Even if Sakamoto did it subconsciously?

[broodwars]

Yes. He's a good game designer. To me, Super Metroid is nearly flawless. I can't think of one bad thing to say about the game. I kind of wish it was longer but that might have affected the pacing. You're picking apart one game but his track record is pretty solid. I admit Other M is not perfect but the bulk of its gameplay is good. I had fun with it.

Super Metroid released in 1994, 18 years ago.  At one time, when he was part of a team with a partner who kept him in check (Gunpei Yokoi), he could make what many people think is a good Metroid game (it's not a game I'm fond of, but I recognize its importance).  That doesn't mean I'm going to give him a pass on games he makes now.  Being considered a good game designer in a totally different era doesn't mean they'll always be good designers.  There's a real problem in the Japanese game industry (especially) with increasingly old men dictating games for a younger, modern generation.  At least Miyamoto has been wise enough to see it coming; train a new generation of designers to take over in his stead; and "retire" from major-title game development before he started ruining games, Star Fox Adventures nonwithstanding.

[Adrock]

He's designed games in between Super Metroid and Other M, the latter just happens to be his latest and the only one people seem to have real issues with. I don't think that means he's not or no longer a good game designer. I'm not giving him a pass either. I've voiced my concerns about Other M. However, beyond the things you mentioned, I still enjoyed Other M's gameplay. There are better games (especially within the Metroid series) and there are far worse games.