Topic: New Super Mario Bros. 2

[FZeroBoyo]

Sure, one could say the look is lazy but you could also say that playing a video game for the graphics is like watching a porno for the story.


I'm sure the game will be fun and make plenty of dollars for Nintendo.


insanolord, you've made it clear you don't like Mario World, so people might just tune it out...

[NWR_insanolord]

The look isn't going to stop me from playing and probably loving the game, but I'd still rather it be better than it is.

[Luigi Dude]

I love 2D Mario, but I agree that the art style is a weak point.  It's not that it's terrible, it's just that it looks like that they didn't put much effort into it; it was an afterthought.  Compare that with the Galaxy games where serious work was clearly put into the graphics.  Why can't NSMB be treated with the same care?  Again, I'll always prefer 2D over 3D Mario, but I'd appreciate it if the team developing it showed at least some enthusiasm.

The thing with the NSMB games is Miyamoto wants the artstyle to be as simple as possible to emphasize the simpler gameplay of the 2D games.  The 3D games get more detailed graphics because there gameplay is more complex so Miyamoto feels more detailed graphics fit the 3D games better.

This is why the 2D Mario games are never going to look as good as the 3D games because Miyamoto wants their to be a clear distinction between the two series and the 2D games need to be the more simple looking of the two.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Sure, one could say the look is lazy but you could also say that playing a video game for the graphics is like watching a porno for the story.


I'm sure the game will be fun and make plenty of dollars for Nintendo.


insanolord, you've made it clear you don't like Mario World, so people might just tune it out...

There is a big difference between "graphics" and "art style". Video games are a visual medium, and the art style contributes to ones enjoyment. Right now the NSMB games are pretty generic in how they look, there is very little that is eye catching or visually interesting about the style. I could care less how much graphical power the games use, what I want is a unique looking game that has a fresh style in a series. Something that the mainstream Mario games, especially the 2-D ones always had. NSMB felt like a step back in many ways, almost an oversimplification.

For example, look at Wind Waker, I doubt anyone can tell me with a straight face that the art style did NOT contribute quite a bit to their enjoyment of the game, in addition to the gameplay itself. Right now the NSMB are fun games, but hardly memorable in how they look, and IMO, how they are designed. A few years down the line they will likely be a distant memory to some, they won't have the staying power of a Wind Waker, Yoshi's Island etc.

[NWR_insanolord]

It doesn't have to be sprites. Look at something like Donkey Kong Country Returns, which did polygonal graphics in a 2D game with a much more ambitious style. GP used the term "generic," which seems like the best way to describe it; it doesn't feel like they put any kind of effort into the look of it, which makes even the best gameplay feel cheaper.

[Oblivion]

Sure, one could say the look is lazy but you could also say that playing a video game for the graphics is like watching a porno for the story.


I'm sure the game will be fun and make plenty of dollars for Nintendo.


insanolord, you've made it clear you don't like Mario World, so people might just tune it out...

There is a big difference between "graphics" and "art style". Video games are a visual medium, and the art style contributes to ones enjoyment. Right now the NSMB games are pretty generic in how they look, there is very little that is eye catching or visually interesting about the style. I could care less how much graphical power the games use, what I want is a unique looking game that has a fresh style in a series. Something that the mainstream Mario games, especially the 2-D ones always had. NSMB felt like a step back in many ways, almost an oversimplification.

For example, look at Wind Waker, I doubt anyone can tell me with a straight face that the art style did NOT contribute quite a bit to their enjoyment of the game, in addition to the gameplay itself. Right now the NSMB are fun games, but hardly memorable in how they look, and IMO, how they are designed. A few years down the line they will likely be a distant memory to some, they won't have the staying power of a Wind Waker, Yoshi's Island etc.

Kind of like Epic Yarn versus Return to Dreamland? I found Return to Dream fairly generic and boring compared to Epic Yarn, despite how easy it was.

[Spak-Spang]

I think there is some wisdom and truth to the simple graphics...but also the simple graphics are supposed to make it feel like a classic game...except that 3D models were used because they are cheaper and easier to work with I think.

The thing about Mario though is, I never felt like Mario tried to push the graphics or have a particular style with any of the games...except for Yoshi's Island...which is one of ,if not the best, Mario games.  Now, that being said...Where Mario games have always pushed the envelope was classic game design, and pushing platforming level design to perfection.  Mario 3, World, Yoshi's Island, and yes even New Super Mario Wii have incredible level design that is brilliant in almost every way. 

The only 2D platforming game that I thought had subpar level design was New Super Mario for the DS...and even that game had fun gameplay. 

I think with the New Super Mario line of games, Nintendo isn't just trying for simple graphics, but also a simpler game design approach...and it just isn't perfect for me.  If you go for simple and nostalgia you better make it pretty and interesting to look at.  If you make it less pretty, then you better have some great level design concepts to really push the game.  I think New Super Mario Wii succeeded...however the DS one is just some kinds of lame.

I hope the new WiiU game does some things to spice up the graphics and overall presentation...I think it might actually.  I feel we may see some more unique things from the game than we first expect. 

[Ian Sane]

The graphics are safe, generic and boring for one simple reason - so Nintendo can make one set of models and reuse them again and again.  It's to cheap out on costs and nothing more.

I think this actually will make for a good indicator on whether or not I should buy a Nintendo game or not.  If it uses these models then it's going to be generic so I'll skip it.  If it uses original art then I can assume that Nintendo is trying to go for something more ambitious.

If I want cookie cutter formula, um, why would I ever have bothered with Nintendo in the first place?  I would have followed the third parties and ditched them for good with the N64.

[GoldenPhoenix]

It doesn't have to be sprites. Look at something like Donkey Kong Country Returns, which did polygonal graphics in a 2D game with a much more ambitious style. GP used the term "generic," which seems like the best way to describe it; it doesn't feel like they put any kind of effort into the look of it, which makes even the best gameplay feel cheaper.

Sprites would be a fresh retro look to the games though, especially when you consider the flexibility you can have for now given the extra power of the game consoles. But I do agree, well crafted polygonal graphics with a good eye for artistic design of the visuals can look great as well.

[Adrock]

I think both can work. The responsibility falls on Nintendo's artists. Going back to sprites will only make a difference if they're used effectively. Otherwise, we end up with the same problem we have now. As nice as Wario Land: Shake It looked, I didn't feel like it really pushed the boundaries of what is possible with hand-drawn animation. The cut-scenes, especially, was as generic as anime can get. Put some imagination behind that level of animation quality and Nintendo has a winner.

[lolmonade]

I was planning on hiding the announcement of this game from my wife.  Damn Gamestop employee had to go and mention it to us as I was checking out.  Now I have to get it for her...

[TrueNerd]

I'll be waiting and seeing on this one. What team is behind this? What's the deal with the Mario game for Wii U? How are they different? Level editor? For me to play either this or NSMB WiiU, they have to be at least as good as NSMB Wii. Probably better. And hopefully there's a reason both of them exist beyond "It's more NSMB."

There has been no shortage of ambitious Mario games of late. For NSMB 2/WiiU to be worth it, they need to step their game up. Bringing back the raccoon tail and P-meter alone isn't enough. If there's no level editor, it better have insane and inspired level design and it better be challenging and it better bring SOMETHING new to the table.

And this art style has looked like ass for six years.

[FZeroBoyo]

Nintendo registered a domain name for "Super Mario 4" a few weeks ago, and I feel that that is going to be the Wii U game. The last numbered Super Mario Bros. game appeared on a console, so why not?


I hope Mario fans don't complain about wonky physics and things like "HIS HAIR SHOULD BE BLACK LIKE IN SUPER MARIO BROS. 3/SUPER MARIO WORLD!!!"

[tendoboy1984]

Nintendo registered a domain name for "Super Mario 4" a few weeks ago, and I feel that that is going to be the Wii U game. The last numbered Super Mario Bros. game appeared on a console, so why not?


I hope Mario fans don't complain about wonky physics and things like "HIS HAIR SHOULD BE BLACK LIKE IN SUPER MARIO BROS. 3/SUPER MARIO WORLD!!!"

But Super Mario World is subtitled "Super Mario Bros. 4" in Japan, so if you don't count the NSMB games, this "Super Mario 4" would actually be Super Mario Bros. 5.

[tendoboy1984]

My point about the New Super Mario Bros. series is that, yes the graphics are a bit bland. But I've always wanted to see the 2D series evolve past the sprite look of the 8-bit and 16-bit eras. New Super Mario Bros. Wii is what I've always envisioned the 2D series would eventually look like. They can't stay sprites forever (unless your Mega Man).


That art style may be overused now, but when it was first seen in the DS game (back in 2006), it was considered unique and charming.

As for DKC Returns and Kirby Returns to Dreamland, those games have 3D characters on a 3D sidescrolling background, similar to Super Smash Bros. It's different than the art style that NSMB uses (3D characters on a flat 2D background).

[TJ Spyke]

Nintendo registered a domain name for "Super Mario 4" a few weeks ago,

Except for the fact that the domain was registered in 2007, which gaming "journalists" fail to notice.

[tendoboy1984]

Nintendo registered a domain name for "Super Mario 4" a few weeks ago,

Except for the fact that the domain was registered in 2007, which gaming "journalists" fail to notice.

Huh? What?

[Oblivion]

Nintendo registered a domain name for "Super Mario 4" a few weeks ago,

Except for the fact that the domain was registered in 2007, which gaming "journalists" fail to notice.

Source? This is the first time I've heard this.

[TJ Spyke]

BNM posted it last week, I think it was in the rumors topic. Maybe it's possible a cybersquatter registered it then and Nintendo just acquired it recently from them.

[MegaByte]

That is exactly it. If you bother to look at the whois record:

  Creation Date........ 2007-03-22
  Registration Date.... 2012-04-03

[Spak-Spang]

Well, I have faith in this game...because to me the Wii version did not disappoint at all.  I though the game charming, and fun...and I think that the art style looks much better in motion than it does in stills. 

[tendoboy1984]

Well, I have faith in this game...because to me the Wii version did not disappoint at all.  I though the game charming, and fun...and I think that the art style looks much better in motion than it does in stills.

Agreed. NSMB DS was a stepping stone to what would become the more ambitious NSMB Wii. I hope NSMB 2 can successfully build off of the Wii game's formula.

[TrueNerd]

My point about the New Super Mario Bros. series is that, yes the graphics are a bit bland. But I've always wanted to see the 2D series evolve past the sprite look of the 8-bit and 16-bit eras. New Super Mario Bros. Wii is what I've always envisioned the 2D series would eventually look like. They can't stay sprites forever (unless your Mega Man).
[/size]

Why not? Rayman Origins uses sprites and looks INFINITELY better than NSMB. No one's mistaking that game for being of the 8 or 16 bit era. And why is that such a bad thing? SMB 3, Super Mario World, and especially Yoshi's Island still look great.

There's just no personality in the look of the NSMB games. It's plastic and cold and bland. 2D Mario games used to be full of personality in their art direction. Be it through sprites or 3D models, I want that back.

[Spak-Spang]

There is SOME personality in the character animation...like the Koopas that dance to the music.  However, I do agree...that it is lacking.

The problem isn't really the character design, it is not putting the creative flare to the animation that give life to the characters.  For example in Super Mario 64 I would say the art direction is not very inspired.  It looks good, but honestly, I would not say Wow...Nintendo created characters and worlds that are magical.  However, the animation flares made up for that.  When Mario did his long jump, you felt like you were Mario straining to jump that far.  He flung his whole body forward and it just felt right. 

There were many moves and actions that felt that way.  I also really loved the swimming in Mario 64...as another example.  However, everything in New Super Mario's animation seems less than inspired. 

If you are going to use 3D models that are easier to animate please play with them more.  I want to see Mario's triple jump and his third jump he rolls into a ball ala Super  Mario 3 star...and give him invincibility during the jump...to kill enemies over him...or just give him some flare in his jumps. 

Personally I always wanted a 2D Mario that had all the moves of the 3D Mario game...minus the punching.  Let him do back flips, long jumps, triple jumps, Wall Slides, Grab onto ledges and pull himself up...swim in underwater sections to secrets, but have to worry about air.  These things could literally change the entire level design of a Mario game.

And yes, I know the New Super Mario Series has given me SOME of that...and in those areas I really praise New Super Mario, especially New Super Mario Wii...but I still want more.

[tendoboy1984]

There is SOME personality in the character animation...like the Koopas that dance to the music.  However, I do agree...that it is lacking.

The problem isn't really the character design, it is not putting the creative flare to the animation that give life to the characters.  For example in Super Mario 64 I would say the art direction is not very inspired.  It looks good, but honestly, I would not say Wow...Nintendo created characters and worlds that are magical.  However, the animation flares made up for that.  When Mario did his long jump, you felt like you were Mario straining to jump that far.  He flung his whole body forward and it just felt right. 

There were many moves and actions that felt that way.  I also really loved the swimming in Mario 64...as another example.  However, everything in New Super Mario's animation seems less than inspired. 

If you are going to use 3D models that are easier to animate please play with them more.  I want to see Mario's triple jump and his third jump he rolls into a ball ala Super  Mario 3 star...and give him invincibility during the jump...to kill enemies over him...or just give him some flare in his jumps. 

Personally I always wanted a 2D Mario that had all the moves of the 3D Mario game...minus the punching.  Let him do back flips, long jumps, triple jumps, Wall Slides, Grab onto ledges and pull himself up...swim in underwater sections to secrets, but have to worry about air.  These things could literally change the entire level design of a Mario game.

And yes, I know the New Super Mario Series has given me SOME of that...and in those areas I really praise New Super Mario, especially New Super Mario Wii...but I still want more.

Compared to Super Mario 64, the Mario Galaxy games felt like a step backwards in terms of animation. Mario moved too rigidly, and his acrobatics weren't as nimble. He didn't really feel like he had any "weight" or momentum to his movements.