Topic: E3 2011 Day 1: Microsoft, Ubisoft, EA, Sony Press Conferences

[NWR_pap64]

Funny enough, I'm with broodwars. 3D shouldn't be the 3DS's main selling point. Yes, glasses free 3D is an advancement in the medium, but the idea of 3D itself is no longer innovative. There are 3D TVs, 3D on Youtube, 3D on laptops, TONS of 3D movies. The 3DS has to sell first and foremost SOFTWARE. Even if the software sells the 3D well enough, if its of high quality and worth owning then the 3DS will take off. So in my honest opinion, 3D isn't the 3DS's best feature.

[Stogi]

I think in order for Nintendo to get back market appeal for the 3DS, they need to showcase 3D movies and a whole bunch of great games.

Luckily, that's exactly what I think they'll do.

[Dasmos]

I think we need to have another argument over the definition of gimmick.

[GoldenPhoenix]

They've learned the correct lesson: that there is a price threshold that mainstream consumers are unwilling to pay.  The PS1/2 were successful because they took a financial hit to release what was considered high-tech at competitive prices.  The PS3 was them assuming the consumer will pay $600 as long as there was perceived value for it.  I see the Vita as a realization that they have no leverage for competitiveness if they are outside of reasonable pricing with Nintendo.  Sony is fighting for market share with Nintendo at this point, not profits off of each unit.

I guess, but in that case they need an extreme success to be profitable, which I don't see happening against the 3DS (or even the DS). Nintendo's model is still far more profitable.

The problem with the 3DS, though, is that its software lineup is pretty weak so far.  We'll see how that shapes out after tomorrow's Press Conference, but right now Sony's thrown out a great incentive for those many people who didn't purchase a 3DS to wait for what's possibly a much better product with a potentially better lineup of games.

There's also a psychology in the price.  Nintendo flat out told us they're overcharging on the 3DS, which makes me feel ripped off buying it at $250.  Sony's likely taking a pretty substantial loss at $250, which makes me feel like I'm getting a great value at $250 for that technology and lineup of games.

Weak lineup? I take it you have been sleeping the last few handheld generations, the launch window lineups are always weak to average at best. 3DS still has a great lineup of games, many of which should debut before PSV. 

Also while I think Nintendo needs to do something about price now, Sony taking substantial losses to release a new system is not something I am happy about, and a trend that has always bothered me about MS and Sony. It is garbage like that which hurts the industry, and is meant to flood the market. Nintendo talks about iPhone games being a race to the bottom, taking large losses to sell hardware makes iPhone game pricing seem irrelevant.

In regards to 3D on 3DS, glasses free 3D is still a fresher take on 3D. The fact is that the 3D TV market has no standard, and you may be buying outdated stuff that won't even work in a few years. Not only that but glasses are expensive. While 3D has been around for awhile, glasses free has not, at least when it comes to handheld devices. There appears to be a double standard being expressed here as well, games are a key feature for any , well, game system so might as well say PSVs touch pad, and hardware power is fluff as well and doesn't matter.

[Mop it up]

Funny enough, I'm with broodwars. 3D shouldn't be the 3DS's main selling point. Yes, glasses free 3D is an advancement in the medium, but the idea of 3D itself is no longer innovative. There are 3D TVs, 3D on Youtube, 3D on laptops, TONS of 3D movies. The 3DS has to sell first and foremost SOFTWARE. Even if the software sells the 3D well enough, if its of high quality and worth owning then the 3DS will take off. So in my honest opinion, 3D isn't the 3DS's best feature.

I never said it was the best feature, just that it was better than anything the Vita offers. The only thing on the Vita I see that can possibly enhance games is the rear touchpad, although I have trouble imagining how it can do anything that a regular touchscreen and/or buttons can't do. So, we'll see how it gets used.

[NWR_pap64]

I think in order for Nintendo to get back market appeal for the 3DS, they need to showcase 3D movies and a whole bunch of great games.

Luckily, that's exactly what I think they'll do.

I think that's what they'll do as well. Hell, they NEED to do that at this point.

[broodwars]

Also while I think Nintendo needs to do something about price now, Sony taking substantial losses to release a new system is not something I am happy about, and a trend that has always bothered me about MS and Sony. It is garbage like that which hurts the industry, and is meant to flood the market. Nintendo talks about iPhone games being a race to the bottom, taking large losses to sell hardware makes iPhone game pricing seem irrelevant.

That's the glory of capitalism, though.  The consumer can only win when we have price wars like this.  And while this price move has made Sony extremely competitive with the 3DS, they still have the win people over on what really matters: the games.  If they put out a lineup as weak as the 3DS' has been so far, they'll be in the same place Nintendo has been...only it'll hurt much more because of the loss they take on the hardware.

And incidentally, I hate 3D in any form outside of theme park attractions and whatnot.  It's a silly gimmick and has been a silly gimmick for well over 50 years, whether you watch it with glasses or on glasses-free displays.  Sony doesn't get a free pass on their love for 3D just because I don't care about the 3D display of the 3DS.

[NWR_insanolord]

I agree with Dasmos, that needs to happen right now.

[Stogi]

Hey IMAX 3D is the ****. It might as well be a theme park attraction.

[Luigi Dude]

I think in order for Nintendo to get back market appeal for the 3DS, they need to showcase 3D movies and a whole bunch of great games.

Luckily, that's exactly what I think they'll do.

I think that's what they'll do as well. Hell, they NEED to do that at this point.

Considering they'll be showing Mario Kart, Animal Crossing and a Mario Platformer for the 3DS tomorrow, Nintendo already has this well wrapped up.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Why does everyone assume that Sony is taking this HUGE loss with PSV or even a loss at all?

3DS is WAAAY over priced. I think the estimated bill of parts and assembly totaled in at $150 or something like that. It is priced to make almost $100 in profit per unit sold. that is just downright greedy and one of the main reasons why I haven't bought in and have no plans of doing so in the near future.

If they took half of that profit and put it back into the tech, the 3DS could have 512MB RAM, 8GB internal and a beefer battery and GPU. take a little bit more and you could up the screen res and throw in that second analog for free. $2 more gets you that 3D camera setup on the inside too.

I would bet the PSV is near break even on price for both models with a slight loss on the wifi, but slight profit on the 3G.
I bet the wifi only model cost something like $260 to Sony and the 3G/wifi version cost around $285.
A 3G antennae don't cost that much and certainly not in the bulk Sony will be selling ordering for the 3G model. And I bet that 3G model will have abundant supply at launch while the wifi only version will be harder to find because of the profit to loss ratio.

[broodwars]

Why does everyone assume that Sony is taking this HUGE loss with PSV or even a loss at all?

3DS is WAAAY over priced. I think the estimated bill of parts and assembly totaled in at $150 or something like that. It is priced to make almost $100 in profit per unit sold. that is just downright greedy and one of the main reasons why I haven't bought in and have no plans of doing so in the near future.

If they took half of that profit and put it back into the tech, the 3DS could have 512MB RAM, 8GB internal and a beefer battery and GPU. take a little bit more and you could up the screen res and throw in that second analog for free. $2 more gets you that 3D camera setup on the inside too.

I would bet the PSV is near break even on price for both models with a slight loss on the wifi, but slight profit on the 3G.
I bet the wifi only model cost something like $260 to Sony and the 3G/wifi version cost around $285.
A 3G antennae don't cost that much and certainly not in the bulk Sony will be selling ordering for the 3G model. And I bet that 3G model will have abundant supply at launch while the wifi only version will be harder to find because of the profit to loss ratio.

We don't know for sure, but Sony's history is selling hardware at a loss to make up later with software and cheaper hardware revisions.  Even if that wasn't the case, though, Sony hasn't made the stupid mistake Nintendo made by telling us we were being ripped off.  That lets us make assumptions that tend to increase the imagined value of the product.  That's really the key right there.

[BlackNMild2k1]

exactly. Sony didn't tell us they were over charging us, so why assume they are taking a loss. We should be assuming that Nintendo is taking in too much of a profit if Sony can outdo the visuals at the same price with even better tech all around.

[ShyGuy]

Chillax Bill Haders, The market will correct the price of the 3DS.

[lolmonade]

They've learned the correct lesson: that there is a price threshold that mainstream consumers are unwilling to pay.  The PS1/2 were successful because they took a financial hit to release what was considered high-tech at competitive prices.  The PS3 was them assuming the consumer will pay $600 as long as there was perceived value for it.  I see the Vita as a realization that they have no leverage for competitiveness if they are outside of reasonable pricing with Nintendo.  Sony is fighting for market share with Nintendo at this point, not profits off of each unit.

I guess, but in that case they need an extreme success to be profitable, which I don't see happening against the 3DS (or even the DS). Nintendo's model is still far more profitable.

Ehh.  Just a different business model.  Sony has always taken the razor-blade approach to system selling: selling the complete shaver for cheap while making no income or losing revenue (system) for the sake of selling as many high-margin replacement razors (games) as possible.

Nintendo has always determined that they want to make a healthy profit on their consoles & handhelds.  Neither method is poor if implemented correctly, just different.

[lolmonade]

exactly. Sony didn't tell us they were over charging us, so why assume they are taking a loss. We should be assuming that Nintendo is taking in too much of a profit if Sony can outdo the visuals at the same price with even better tech all around.

There was an article not long ago stating the expected cost for Nintendo to produce the 3DS

http://technabob.com/blog/2011/03/29/nintendo-3ds-costs-isuppli/

The total bill of materials for the 3DS is pegged at $100.71 (USD) in parts, with labor adding another $2.54 making the total cost to build $103.25. That price doesn’t count the marketing dollars spent on the 3DS launch and advertising

Nintendo is definitely making a healthy profit per system, but if they're selling small potatoes, they would be better off moving more units at a lower margin for higher overall sales.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The fact is that we don't know how much money goes into a single 3DS nor a PSV that is sitting on a store shelf. I really doubt Nintendo is making $100 profit, raw parts is just one factor in the cost of a product. Not to mention nothing is confirmed in regards to these stats.

I think Nintendo will be fine, the PSP released for $250, so I think Nintendo if they can manage it should drop the price as close to the $150 mark (not referring to parts cost but instead what teh DS launched at) as possible, even $180 would be fine. Then they should leverage the 3D much more heavily, getting off their butts and getting deals with various movie studios for exclusive 3D content. And of course focus on games first and foremost. If they can do all that they should be just fine against Sony's PSV.

[lolmonade]

The fact is that we don't know how much money goes into a single 3DS nor a PSV that is sitting on a store shelf. I really doubt Nintendo is making $100 profit, raw parts is just one factor in the cost of a product.

I think Nintendo will be fine, the PSP released for $250, so I think Nintendo if they can manage it should drop the price as close to the $150 mark (not referring to parts cost but instead what teh DS launched at) as possible, even $180 would be fine. Then they should leverage the 3D much more heavily, getting off their butts and getting deals with various movie studios for exclusive 3D content. And of course focus on games first and foremost. If they can do all that they should be just fine against Sony's PSV.

The article definitely states that is an estimate, so the numbers aren't absolute, but it wouldn't surprise me if parts & labor sum up to that amount.  If Nintendo is smart, they most likely keep a tight supply line, and purchase inventory in bulk to net discounted rates with parts manufacturers, so that estimate seems reasonable to me. 

It also states that the estimates don't account for advertising, which is a large expense for any company, so of course Nintendo isn't netting a $150 profit per system, but I think it isn't unreasonable to possibly reduce the price to $225.  Not immediately, as I believe it would show a discounting of the Nintendo Brand, but I believe a smart move on their part would be to start doing at least game pack-ins or something if some of the new software coming out doesn't boost their anemic sales since the initial launch boost.   

[Stogi]

Lowering the price of the 3DS would be a significant sign of timidness.

When people look at the PSV and 3DS side by side, I think the value of glasses-less 3D will really be the factor that wins out. All Nintendo has to do is convince people why it is a factor at all. 3D movies and 3D games. Beat Sony at their own game.

[noname2200]

The price point on the Vita is certainly interesting, and lord knows my 3DS hasn't seen a whole lot of playtime, but it's really sad that the only reason I can think of to pick up a Vita is that it's backwards-compatible with the PSP (it is...right?). Nintendo at least made a point of saying "all this stuff is coming out someday!," and tomorrow we should be seeing even more games for the 3DS. I firmly believe that Nintendo gave Sony an opening in the handheld arena this generation: from the looks of it, Sony has declined that invitation.

Maybe things will change come TGS, but right now it just seems like I'd spend another $250 for another paperweight.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Lowering the price of the 3DS would be a significant sign of timidness.

When people look at the PSV and 3DS side by side, I think the value of glasses-less 3D will really be the factor that wins out. All Nintendo has to do is convince people why it is a factor at all. 3D movies and 3D games. Beat Sony at their own game.

You have a point as well, you can really hurt the value of a product by signaling to consumers that it is "cheap". That is why the Wii was such a success, it was lower priced then the other two systems, but not to the point of looking bad. Instead it said "Hey we are a great value, our competition doesn't have Motion Control!".  So Nintendo has a tight rope to walk here. 3D regardless of what some individual opinions may be, is popular at the moment, and will likely become the standard as time goes on. Ironically PSV is in a similar situation as Nintendo was with Wii when it came to HD TVs! Instead of HD, it is 3D

[Khushrenada]

So, I recorded G4's coverage of today's E3 news and just fast forwarded through it and watched some of the press conferences. Plan on doing the same thing tomorrow and will try to avoid any spoilers of Nintendo's Press Event. I want to see the whole unfold for once without having read all the news online first.

But so far, from what I've seen, this is looking like the most boring E3 ever. Funny thing. When you fast-forward through the coverage, you realize how similiar most games look. So far, the only thing I've seen that's peaked my interest slightly is Rayman Origins I guess. The industry needs some new ideas. It's kind of depressing. At this point, I don't really expect too much from anybody. My Nintendo can spark up my enthusiasm again tomorrow (and they probably will) but right now, all I know from them is that they will be announcing more new franchise installments and more new hardware to upgrade to which is just adding to my feeling of malaise to the whole gaming industry.

But like I said, I'm sure when I see the Press Conference and I can actually see what the new console is all about and what the games do look like, I'll probably be changing my tune. However, this first day has so far wiped out my E3 enthusiasm.

Just my 2 cents on the day.

[ShyGuy]

Sequels and rip-offs, as far as the eye can see...

[KDR_11k]

I heard about a backlash against 3D movies on a podcast where the 2D version gets many more viewers than the 3D one. Sucks for the 3DS.

[SixthAngel]

I heard about a backlash against 3D movies on a podcast where the 2D version gets many more viewers than the 3D one. Sucks for the 3DS.

The movie studios are shooting themselves in the foot though.  I have to check online to see if the movie is really 3d or done in post production before I lay down the bucks for it.  Post production 3d really can make it look worse and it is hurting the image 3d first developed in people's minds with Avatar.

The NGP price is much better than I expected.  I think the system's biggest hurdle will be the 3DS momentum.  It is out, has units sold and has the majority of games already in the pipeline for it thanks the success of the DS.  PSV will have to do something amazing to get the games moved to a higher end and more expensive system especially when the first wave of big title will be for the 3DS.