Topic: E3 2011 Predictions

[Caterkiller]

Other M's sales performance was abysmal and even the great Reggie himself openly expressed his disappointment over how poorly it sold.

With that being the case, I'm sure Nintendo has got the message that consumers weren't happy with the directions this game took. Unfortunately, my fear with that is Nintendo may decide to just abandon Metroid entirely rather than do it the way we want them to.

No way will they abandon it entirely. It will just go the star fox route. Just barely being seen ever again.

[Sarail]

It really bothers me that there's so much hate for Metroid: Other M. It's my second favorite Metroid title (gasp!) with Super Metroid leading the way.

As for predicitions, I do see Ninty announcing its new console. Nintendo won't show any games, obviously, but I do see it detailing the specs of the next system and possibly a hint or two of the system's big "catch".

As for current possible game annoucements... I'd walk away from E3 just happy if The Last Story and Xenoblade were announced for North America. That's all I really want that's left of the Wii. Anything else is just candy.

[Chozo Ghost]

It will just go the star fox route.

So does that mean we're going to see a Metroid equivalent of Star Fox Adventures?

[NWR_insanolord]

It will just go the star fox route.

So does that mean we're going to see a Metroid equivalent of Star Fox Adventures?

I'm combining both of these quoted posts to make one game: a scrolling, on rails shooter where you play as Samus in her ship.

[Luigi Dude]

Other M's sales performance was abysmal and even the great Reggie himself openly expressed his disappointment over how poorly it sold.

Other M has sold over 500K worldwide which is far from abysmal.  It's around what Zero Mission and Hunters did and better then Pinball.  The only reason Nintendo was disappointed in the sales is because they were expecting it to be a million seller like most Metroid games are and spent more on advertising and production values then they would have liked for a game that did the way Other M did.

Once again, disappointed doesn't mean failure.  Nintendo was disappointed in Animal Crossing Wii's sales because they weren't as high as they hoped but that's not stopping them from making Animal Crossing 3DS.  Nintendo was disappointed in Twilight Princess Japanese sales because they were anywhere close to the American sales, but that's not stopping them from making Skyward Sword.  Nintendo is disappointed that the 3D Mario's don't sell as well as the 2D Mario's but that hasn't stopped them from making Galaxy 2 and the upcoming 3D Mario for the 3DS.

No way will they abandon it entirely. It will just go the star fox route. Just barely being seen ever again.

The reason we haven't seen a Star Fox in a long time is because Miyamoto controls the series and wasn't pleased with how third parties were handling the series but didn't feel it was an important enough series to have one of Nintendo's internal studio's work on it either.  In the case of Metroid, Sakamoto controls the main part of the series and Kensuke Tanabe controls the Prime part.  This is why all Metroid's that Sakamoto isn't involved with are all called Metroid Prime, to show that it's a spinoff series.  This is why Sakamoto himself even said the Prime games aren't part of his series and why they're never mentioned in Other M.  The Prime part though is controlled by Kensuke Tanabe who as been the top producer since Prime 2.  Before anyone mentions Miyamoto, he was only the top producer of the first Prime and after that he made Tanabe the man in charge of it.

So basically if Sakamoto wants to make more Metroid games, he'll be able to make another one.  If Tanabe wants to make another Prime game, he'll be able to make another one.  If we don't get another Metroid game in a long time though, it's because Sakamoto and Tanabe just don't feel like making one.  Not because Iwata won't allow it since the Metroid series is still a pretty successful series considering even it's low entries still manage at least half a million worldwide.  The only thing low sales will do is future Metroid might get smaller budgets but that would probably mean there wouldn't be anymore storyline cutscenese and voice work like Prime 3 and Other M had, but considering that's what most of you hated, looks like most of you have nothing to worry about then.

[MegaByte]

After the GDC talk, I'm thinking that if Nintendo doesn't do a new Star Fox soon, Tanabe may be its best bet, getting it to an American developer.

[TJ Spyke]

When did Nintendo say they were disappointed with the sales of Animal Crossing: City Folk? The game sold over 3.3 million copies. Other M, however, has been declared a disappointment by Nintendo and failed to sell that well considering how much money they spent making and advertising the game. Also, Sakamoto never said the Prime games aren't part of the series. Not to mention that Other M shows why he should not be allowed to touch the series again, and I think Iwata might not give him another chance because the worst parts of Other M were the parts that he controlled. The game pretty much sold poorly in every region (unlike TP, which sold really well in other regions).

[Chozo Ghost]

If Sakamoto's interpretation of the Metroid franchise is the "official Canon", then consider me a heretic...

[Ian Sane]

How do you fix something when the original creator has goofed it?  It isn't like Miyamoto made Star Fox suck.  It was other devs that made the lousy games.  So in theory if EAD took on Star Fox again it could be restored.  That's the standard process for a reboot.  A series goes to other devs, turns to crap, and then the original creators are brought back to restore it.

We can't do that with Metroid.  So is Retro now the go-to guys for the series (actually with their DKC experience they could probably make a good side-scrolling Metroid)?  I now truly wonder what level of involvement Gunpei Yokoi had.  The first Metroid without him was Metroid Fusion, which I thought was good but in retrospect it can clearly be considered the beginning of the end.  That was the first sign of Sakamoto's interest in making the game more linear for the sake of storytelling.  Zero Mission was more back-to-basics but it was a remake of the original game so it's hard to gauge.

Did Sakamoto want to go nuts with stupid teenage melodramatics with Super Metroid only to be stopped by Yokoi?  Was Yokoi Sakamoto's leesh that kept him from doing stupid stuff?  What would Zelda turn into without Miyamoto around?  It isn't like Miyamoto is the director anymore but he does supervise.  If Aonuma wanted to do something really stupid Miyamoto has the veto power to kibosh it.  Isn't that really what Metroid now faces?  The original boss that oversaw the creation of the series is no longer supervising.

[Oblivion]

There's only one thing to take from that then: Sakamoto hired the Japanese Mafia to "bump" off Yokoi.

[MegaByte]

Of course, SMB was originally supposed to have side-scrolling shooting elements. Since those actually made it into SML, I wonder if that was something Yokoi pushed for.

[NWR_insanolord]

Gunpei Yokoi was the Chris Farley to Sakamoto's David Spade.

[Mop it up]

Did Sakamoto want to go nuts with stupid teenage melodramatics with Super Metroid only to be stopped by Yokoi?  Was Yokoi Sakamoto's leesh that kept him from doing stupid stuff?

I think it is more likely that the hardware of the time was too limited to have the kind of story that the developers wanted. There was a Metroid manga around the time of Super Metroid I believe, and from what I can gather, Samus is pretty similar to how she behaves in Metroid Other M. So the game wouldn't really be a surprise or seem different if people had read it, but of course, no one in America really did.

[Chozo Ghost]

Before Other M, Samus seemed like a character you could respect for being brave and strong. But in Other M she cries and screams and it makes you think that she really has no business doing what she does. This is why Other M has been criticized as being sexist.

From Wikipedia:

G4 TV's Abbie Heppe controversially declared this a "sexist" portrayal of Samus, complaining that she "cannot possibly wield the amount of power she possesses unless directed to by a man". Heppe went so far as to criticize people who liked the game, stating she would never talk to them again.[59]

I agree with Ian. This game really does make me mad, and the more I think about it the madder it makes me. Samus was one of my childhood video game heroes, but its like Sakamoto took everything about her that made her a great character and waded it up into a ball and tossed it into the wastebasket. In Other M she is reduced to a child who isn't allowed to do anything without Adam's permission. In every other Metroid game if there was something that needed to be done she just did it. She didn't cry about it or scream or curl up into a fetal position like she does in Other M.

[Luigi Dude]

Before Other M, Samus seemed like a character you could respect for being brave and strong. But in Other M she cries and screams and it makes you think that she really has no business doing what she does. This is why Other M has been criticized as being sexist.

From Wikipedia:

G4 TV's Abbie Heppe controversially declared this a "sexist" portrayal of Samus, complaining that she "cannot possibly wield the amount of power she possesses unless directed to by a man". Heppe went so far as to criticize people who liked the game, stating she would never talk to them again.[59]

I agree with Ian. This game really does make me mad, and the more I think about it the madder it makes me. Samus was one of my childhood video game heroes, but its like Sakamoto took everything about her that made her a great character and waded it up into a ball and tossed it into the wastebasket. In Other M she is reduced to a child who isn't allowed to do anything without Adam's permission. In every other Metroid game if there was something that needed to be done she just did it. She didn't cry about it or scream or curl up into a fetal position like she does in Other M.

Oh not this bullsh!t again.  The whole reason Samus listened to what Adam had to say is because he and his troops were on a search and rescue mission to find any survivors as well as gathering evidence on what really happend and he didn't want Samus using anything that might destroy evidence or accidently kill survivors.  Since Samus has respect for Adam she agreed to only use her weapons when he feels it's right since she trust his judgment.  Yeah, there were some parts that make no since like why it took to get the varia suit, but the whole reason behind this part of the storyline anyway is Sakamoto wanted to find a more logical reason for Samus to not have all her weapons from the start and this is what he thought was the most logical way.  People have to stop getting so hung up over this part of the game since the entire reason is just to give Samus a new way of getting powerups as she progresses. 

Not to mention the dumbest part of this complaint is the ass hats who keep bringing it up never want to answer the f*cking question about what if Adam was a women instead.  The people who complain about Other M's sexism are basically saying it's bad for Samus to take orders from a man, but when asked if it would be OK if she was taking it from a woman instead, they just go silent.  By their logic, if it's sexist for a woman like Samus to take orders from a man which means the only way the game would have not been sexist is if she's taking orders from another woman.  Which is just as sexist since it's saying a woman should only listen to other woman and never listen to anything a man says.

And on the issue of crying, Samus only cries at two parts in the game.  The first is when Ridley reappears because she goes PTSD since Ridley killed her mother as a child and the second was when Adam died.  Now the Ridley was just bad writing on Sakamoto's part since she's dealt with Ridley two times before in his canon, but the way Samus acted still falls into the realm of believable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder

Diagnostic symptoms for PTSD include re-experiencing the original trauma(s) through flashbacks or nightmares, avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, and increased arousal – such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, anger, and hypervigilance. Formal diagnostic criteria (both DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10) require that the symptoms last more than one month and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.^[1]

On the issue of Adam dieing, well no sh!t she would cry considering the history they've had.  In Metal Gear Solid 3, at the end of the game Snake stands over The Boss grave and sheds tears over her.  Does this mean MGS3 is sexist toward men since a man cried?  Give me a f*cking break.


Aside from the two scenes I just mentioned, every other part of Other M has Samus being just as brave and strong as she was in the previous Metroids.  Yes the storyline of Other M was poorly written and Sakamoto needs to learn he's not a good storyteller but the complaints about the game being sexist are beyond stupid since aside from a few moments that are easily explainable why Samus acted a certain way, it's basically non existent.

[broodwars]

Oh not this bullsh!t again.  The whole reason Samus listened to what Adam had to say is because he and his troops were on a search and rescue mission to find any survivors as well as gathering evidence on what really happend and he didn't want Samus using anything that might destroy evidence or accidently kill survivors.  Since Samus has respect for Adam she agreed to only use her weapons when he feels it's right since she trust his judgment.  Yeah, there were some parts that make no since like why it took to get the varia suit, but the whole reason behind this part of the storyline anyway is Sakamoto wanted to find a more logical reason for Samus to not have all her weapons from the start and this is what he thought was the most logical way.  People have to stop getting so hung up over this part of the game since the entire reason is just to give Samus a new way of getting powerups as she progresses.

Personally, my whole problem with the "Permission" system is that it's incredibly contrived and stupid, and it doesn't even make sense within the confines the story gives it.  OK, Adam telling her to deactivate Power Bombs and maybe the more powerful beams makes sense.  That's powerful stuff that could blow up the station if not used carefully.  But forcing Samus to deactivate her armor, Grapple Beam, etc.?  It makes absolutely no sense why these lesser tools were forced off as well, within the logic of the story.  Frankly, I don't understand why Sakamoto felt the need to justify why Samus has to be powered-down at the beginning of the game.  We all understand that that's just a gameplay contrivance of the Metroid series, and while it can be neat to see an explanation (the best being Metroid Prime's) I don't really give a damn if it's not.  It's like throwing a fit over why the Mario games never explain why Mario doesn't just start the game with a full inventory of past Power-ups, which then have to be stolen from him by a Lakito in the first 5 minutes of the game (or like complaining why Link isn't uber-powered up at the beginning of the Zelda games featuring the same link).  I'm willing to give the gameplay contrivance some lenience, because if I don't the game falls apart.

Throw in the seemingly random times that Adam unlocks your equipment, and the system just doesn't make any sense.  Sure, it's somewhat sexist as well, but that aspect of the system is incredibly minor (and can be explained more or less decently by the story) and far outweighed by it just not being a good gameplay system in general.

Now the Ridley was just bad writing on Sakamoto's part since she's dealt with Ridley two times before in his canon

Actually, at that point in the Metroid canon, she's killed Ridley 4 times in various incarnations.

1.  Metroid/Metroid Zero Mission.
2.  Metroid Prime.
3.  Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.
4.  Super Metroid.

I know that Sakamoto doesn't like to acknowledge the existence of Metroid games that are better than the ones he's made himself, but there's no reason we shouldn't.       But yeah, the Ridley scene was the one that destroyed the game for me, because it is the one aspect of the game that is blatantly, overtly sexist.  Maybe it's just a Japanese societal thing, but I don't think we'd ever see (in that same situation, with that same history) the main character crying in terror and curling into a metaphorical fetal position if they were male.  Maybe if this was Samus' first run-in (rather than her 5th) with Ridley, I could buy it.  But it's not, and it's terrible writing.

I really wish we could put Metroid Other M's incredibly poor writing and design behind us and chalk it up to an insane (and, IMO, incompetent) director being given free reign to do whatever he wanted.  Hopefully, Nintendo will soon announce a Sakamoto-less Metroid title so we can look to the future instead.

[Chozo Ghost]

Oh not this bullsh!t again.  The whole reason Samus listened to what Adam had to say is because he and his troops were on a search and rescue mission to find any survivors as well as gathering evidence on what really happend and he didn't want Samus using anything that might destroy evidence or accidently kill survivors.  Since Samus has respect for Adam she agreed to only use her weapons when he feels it's right since she trust his judgment.  Yeah, there were some parts that make no since like why it took to get the varia suit, but the whole reason behind this part of the storyline anyway is Sakamoto wanted to find a more logical reason for Samus to not have all her weapons from the start and this is what he thought was the most logical way.

But that isn't the most logical way it could have been done, and in fact it wasn't even logical at all. I understand not wanting Samus to have everything right off the bat, but there are many different ways it could have been handled that would have made more sense. For example, a mischievous creature could have been added in the story that attacks Samus in the beginning of the game and steals most of her stuff and then hides it all over the ship and then she has to find it. Another way it could have been done is to portray her as suffering damage early on which knocked out much of her equipment, so she has to locate repair stations throughout the ship to bring those various things back online.

So I just gave two examples right off the top of my head that are more logical than the way Sakamoto handled it.

[Oblivion]

WoahwoahWOAH. Samus...cries...in Other M? The ****? What happened to the strong, independent, kick-ass, bounty hunter I grew up with? I haven't bought Other M because of lack of money, and while I've heard some bad things about this game, I didn't hear anything about her CRYING. TWICE. That's it. I'm never playing Other M. I thank you all for warninng me. If I had seen that, I would've thrown my Wii out the window.

[Stogi]

Yes....

Emotions are not allowed in the most stoic of characters...

[Oblivion]

No, Samus can have whatever smotions she wants. But after 20 years of being the kick-ass bounty hunter that, you know, DESTROYED A COUPLE WORLDS, she cries over Ridley? Are you kidding me? Yes, I can understand her crying over Adam, (thanks for the spoiler btw) but over an enemy who killed her parents and who she's fought four times? No way, José.

[Mop it up]

I think one problem is the contrast between Metroid Prime and Metroid Other M. Metroid Prime was an almost perfect evolution of the minimalistic storytelling in Super Metroid. There were no real cutscenes, the entire story is "told" through scanning objects in the environment, and sometimes enemies. This allows the game to have a nice story, but it's delivered in a non-intrusive way; it's up to the player if they want to learn the history of the decaying world, and decide how they want to feel. Other M is pretty much the exact opposite of that.

If you just follow Sakamoto's Metroid games, you can see the evolutionary process that leads to Other M. Each game onward from NES Metroid, to Metroid II to Super to Fusion, added a little bit more elements of story, progressively filling in the blanks of the character of Samus and the universe around her. So I'd say that the timing of Metroid Other M was kind of unfortunate, and probably didn't do it any favours. If the Prime games never existed, Metroid Other M probably would have been at least a little better received.

[Chozo Ghost]

Also, is it just me, or does the rebellious "punk" teenage version of Samus featured in the backstory cutscenes not even look like her at all? The hair is different, the eyes are different, everything is different. The teenage version of Samus to me looks like she's a Japanese girl with her hair dyed blonde. What do you think?



It seems to me that Sakamoto might have been trying to make the game more appealing to the Japanese market so he redesigned the character with a more Japanese appearance, but he left the adult Samus more or less the same as she appears in other games (except at times she doesn't seem to be 6'3" in the scenes where she is standing with the Space Marines who tend to tower over her, unless the space marines are like 7ft tall, which is certainly possible).

[Stogi]

Listen, I'm not trying to argue that the design and character decisions weren't bad or badly thought out. I'm arguing that making Samus a rounder charachter can be good for the series.

Like Neil wrote, it would be interesting to see a young Samus being raised by the chozo. A fragile girl turned into a bounty hunter, and all the emotions displayed during that transition.

Now while that would be "interesting", gameplay should always come first.

[Ian Sane]

I don't like the "permissions" method of powering up not because it's sexist or anything like that.  I don't like it because it's just not fun.  Exploring secret passages and finding a new power-up and then being able to go back to previous areas is fun.  Waiting until the game arbitrarily allows me to do this is not.  The most important thing about videogames is the rule of fun.  That's why no one questioned why Samus was without all her power-ups in Super Metroid and why games that force you to eat food always suck and why videogame characters can usually take several bullets without dying.  You make sacrifices in logic and realism to make the game playable and fun.  And the stupid thing is that the permission stuff does not even make sense from a logical point of view.  If I'm about to get killed and using this better weapon I have could save my life I'm going to use it.  Even in the army if your superior says you can't use lethal force you still have the free will as a human being to disobey that order if you feel you absolutely have to.  Who wants to play a game where you effectively SHOULD be able to do something but it just doesn't let you?  Who wants to play a game where someone bosses you around the whole time?

Regarding Samus crying and all that, I think it just shows a common problem with storytelling in games.  In a videogames YOU are the main character.  Do you know why Samus was a badass in the earlier Metroid games?  It was because *I* was a badass in those games.  Maybe Sakamoto wanted me to be a big pussy the whole time but that isn't the way I played it and that isn't the way most of us played it.  In most videogames I'm Mr. Awesome with his big gun kicking ass and taking names.  This is especially true in older games where they couldn't cram it with cutscenes.  We were the main character and we usually played it as escapist fantasy.

Once you give the character a really defined personality you run the risk of offending the player.  The main character is the player and no one wants to be told that they're some other character than who they want to be.  I want to be a badass so don't tell me that I'm not by forcing me to cry and act like a wuss.  This is probably worse with older characters where people got attached to this avatar that realistically had no personality to begin with.  Hell, I'm still mad whenever Mario talks because *I* don't want to sound like such a stupid goofball.

The Metal Gear Solid series is also a good example.  Snake is a badass.  Everyone likes playing as Snake as a result.  Raiden is a pussy.  No one likes playing as Raiden.  Realistically Raiden can do all the same stuff.  I can choose to take people out with non-lethal force or sneak around or just slaughter everyone.  I have the same gameplay choices that are given to me as Snake.  But then the cutscene starts and they tell me who I'm supposed to be.  Luckily Snake is a cool character that fits the escapist fantasy most young men dig so the forced personality works.  Raiden's does not because most of us don't fantasize about being emo wimps.  None of us fantasize about playing a girl who acts like a sissy so Other M fails big time on escapism.

So either make the main character more of an avatar for the player with no real personality or if you're going to go nuts with story make the main character heroic and brave.  Videogames are escapist fantasy so if you're going to tell the player who he is then it better be someone he fantasizes about being.

Though maybe there is a cultural issue here.  Wanting to be Mr. Awesome is very much a Western fantasy.  Do Japanese gamers fantasize about that or do they fantasize about being sissy girls?  With all the bishy characters and such I wonder if being a big pussy is a fantasy for Japanese people.  Of course being a wimp is easy and requires no effort so it's a pretty dumb fantasy to have.  That's like fantasizing about being a fat lazy deadbeat.

[BlackNMild2k1]

You guys are gonna make me take M:OM out of it's case for the 1st time and actually play it just to see how bad it really is.