Topic: E3 2011 Predictions

[Ian Sane]

I've been wanting more new IP from Nintendo forever.  They do provide some but the problem is that it's usually from their B-teams and it usually just isn't all that good.  Realistically I want new IP from the big guns like EAD and IS.  And it has to deliver big.  Steel Diver is new IP but it looks like a glorified browser game.  I think what I really want is a new world to explore.  New characters, new setting, new mythology, new gameplay.  The most notable new IP for this gen has been the Miis but the Miis have no identity.  They're just in game avatars for you and me.

Last gen Pikmin was a great example of getting it right.  Miyamoto and EAD making a brand new game with unique gameplay and a completely new world to discover.

[Nemo]

Was that really the last good IP from Nintendo?

I certainly can't think of any others...

And Pikmin came out 10 years ago.

You're overdue, Nintendo.

[TJ Spyke]

No, they have had several good ones. Bonsai Barber was a pretty good WiiWare game, the Art Style series is mostly good. There is also Elite Beat Agents. There are plenty of other good IPs from them, but I tried to pick ones that I think most people would like.

[NWR_insanolord]

Miyamoto has said that once he comes up with an idea for a gameplay mechanic, he only turns it into a new IP if he can't find a way to shoehorn it into an existing franchise (not in so many words, of course, but that was the basic idea), and he's the one calling the shots at EAD. Frankly, I don't really mind that they don't do new IPs that often as long as they continue to find interesting new ways to do existing ones. Then again, I'm a big believer in Miyamoto's philosophy that story in most types of games is, at best, unimportant, and that too much of it can be a detriment.

[broodwars]

Miyamoto has said that once he comes up with an idea for a gameplay mechanic, he only turns it into a new IP if he can't find a way to shoehorn it into an existing franchise (not in so many words, of course, but that was the basic idea), and he's the one calling the shots at EAD. Frankly, I don't really mind that they don't do new IPs that often as long as they continue to find interesting new ways to do existing ones. Then again, I'm a big believer in Miyamoto's philosophy that story in most types of games is, at best, unimportant, and that too much of it can be a detriment.

If Miyamoto is the one chiefly responsible for the fact that Nintendo doesn't do new IPs (on the consoles, anyway), that would be rather unfortunate.  It's my big problem with Nintendo, especially when you have Sony creating and iterating on new IPs this generation (even from studios who had big PS2 franchises).  Sure, I enjoy Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc., but I want to see new unique universes and related gameplay experiences from Nintendo.  As much as I dislike the original Kid Icarus, at least it's not a franchise we've seen over a dozen games in from Nintendo over the past 20 years so it's practically a new IP for 3DS.

[Ian Sane]

  Miyamoto has said that once he comes up with an idea for a gameplay mechanic, he only turns it into a new IP if he can't find a way to shoehorn it into an existing franchise (not in so many words, of course, but that was the basic idea), and he's the one calling the shots at EAD. Frankly, I don't really mind that they don't do new IPs that often as long as they continue to find interesting new ways to do existing ones. Then again, I'm a big believer in Miyamoto's philosophy that story in most types of games is, at best, unimportant, and that too much of it can be a detriment.

I don't like this philosophy.  If they take the new gameplay mechanic and shove it in the same lame Mario trapping I have seen a million times it's stale to me before I even play it.  Because they don't pay any attention to story the only way to make the characters and world interesting is to start from scratch.  Now sometimes it wouldn't make sense to not put it in an existing franchise.  If it's some new jumping mechanic it would make a lot of sense to give it to Mario.
 
Honestly when you shoehorn everything into an existing franchise if you can it's really cutting corners.  You're being lazy about the details and the really great games have had a lot of attention paid to all of the details.  The gameplay, the graphics, the music, the level design, the controls, the characters, the story - it all connects.  When they just use Mario again and have the story be "Are you a bad enough dude to rescure the Princess?" they're basically putting in no effort on the story and characters.  They're half-assing it and it SHOWS.  You can notice it when you're playing.  Now you combine this with Nintendo's half-assing on the graphics too (most Wii games look like average Cube games at best) and it feels like you're getting a slapped together game.
 
I notice that often Nintendo benefitted in the past from the restrictions of the time.  Graphics could only be so good and there wasn't much potential to tell a story so they didn't have to push it far to push the envelope.  Now that the technology is there, Nintendo looks lazy.  It was on the Cube that I first noticed this.  The reliance on the Miis basically screams "we don't feel like trying".

[Stogi]

Miyamoto's has created a new IP almost every single generation.

NES - Mario Zelda
SNES - Star Fox, Mario Kart
N64 - No new IP's but arguably the most impressive sequels; Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, OOT, Star Fox 64
GC - Pikmin
Wii - Wii series

[broodwars]

Miyamoto's has created a new IP almost every single generation.

GC - Pikmin
Wii - Wii series

No one has disputed Pikmin, and the defining characteristic of the Wii series is that it's spectacularly bland and generic.  You can do pretty much anything in that IP, because there is nothing that really defines it outside of the Mii characters.  Putting that franchise in the same breath as something unique like Pikmin is a joke.

[Stogi]

Well it shouldn't be laughed at, because the Wii series is wildly more popular than Pikmin. It's also ridiculously fun.

[broodwars]

Well it shouldn't be laughed at, because the Wii series is wildly more popular than Pikmin.

So is Duke Nukem and so many other bad or lame franchises over the past 10 years.  It doesn't mean I respect those series more than Pikmin, either.

[Stogi]

We're not talking about respect. We're talking about new IP's. Just because you don't respect an IP doesn't take away the fact that it's NEW.

[Luigi Dude]

I've been wanting more new IP from Nintendo forever.  They do provide some but the problem is that it's usually from their B-teams and it usually just isn't all that good.  Realistically I want new IP from the big guns like EAD and IS.  And it has to deliver big.  Steel Diver is new IP but it looks like a glorified browser game.  I think what I really want is a new world to explore.  New characters, new setting, new mythology, new gameplay.  The most notable new IP for this gen has been the Miis but the Miis have no identity.  They're just in game avatars for you and me.

Last gen Pikmin was a great example of getting it right.  Miyamoto and EAD making a brand new game with unique gameplay and a completely new world to discover.

Why don't you actually wait until Steel Diver comes out before you start to bash it.  Steel Diver like Pikmin is a new IP from a Nintendo EAD studio and has had Miyamoto's involvment as well.  Just because your not interested in it, doesn't mean others aren't.

Need I remind you that the original Pikmin, like Luigi's Mansion was criticized for being a glorified tech demo that Nintendo rushed out because they needed something for the Gamecubes launch.  The biggest complaints were that the first Pikmin was too short and not worth the full $50 tag that it was being charged.  This is no different then how people like yourself are already complaining about Steel Diver being a short tech demo that isn't worth full price either.  Even though the final version of Steel Diver hasn't even been released yet making complaints about it being not worth the price unfounded at the moment.

All the praise of Pikmin comes from the sequel which was a masterpiece but the original was anything but.  For all we know Steel Diver could have a sequel in 3 years from now that improves it the same way Pikmin 2 improved on Pikmin 1.  But don't pretend that Steel Diver shouldn't count because your not interested in it when many others are and then praise the Pikmin series when it's first game was guilty of some of the same complaints people are using against Steel Diver.

[broodwars]

All the praise of Pikmin comes from the sequel which was a masterpiece but the original was anything but.  For all we know Steel Diver could have a sequel in 3 years from now that improves it the same way Pikmin 2 improved on Pikmin 1.  But don't pretend that Steel Diver shouldn't count because your not interested in it when many others are and then praise the Pikmin series when it's first game was guilty of some of the same complaints people are using against Steel Diver.

Eh, personally I like the first game a lot more than its sequel.  The time limit made sense within the narrative and encouraged the player to keep moving and make the most of all their days, and that was really only if you wanted to collect all the parts (which you didn't have to to complete the game).  The second game has always come off to me as an over-reaction to the complaints against the first.  Instead of trying to maximize your day, you instead spend hours over endless days grinding-up Pikmin in dull, randomly-generated caves.  Because you know, what I really needed in my strategy game is the same sort of level-grinding, randomly-generated BS that kills Japanese RPGs for me.  The game just got tedious for me really quickly.  The first game is short, but it's magnificent in how much it does in such a short space of time and gets its point across better.

[Stogi]

I agree with Broodwars. I could never get into Pikmin 2 as much as I could with the original.

[Ian Sane]

The Miis are more or less not IP at all.  They're just a visual avatar for the player himself.  If anything it gives Nintendo the ability to avoid creating new characters altogether since they can just shove the Miis in there.  Hell, they're doing that with the new Pilotwings.

 We're not talking about respect. We're talking about new IP's. Just because you don't respect an IP doesn't take away the fact that it's NEW. 

Steel Diver like Pikmin is a new IP from a Nintendo EAD studio and has had Miyamoto's involvment as well.  Just because your not interested in it, doesn't mean others aren't.

I feel these two quotes demonstrate Nintendo's weakness in generating new IP.  They do it so rarely that if you don't care for it specifically, you are SOL.  If they were constantly cranking out new stuff then if you didn't like this, you might like that.  There would be variety.  But since we get about one a generation, you better hope you like what they come up with.  I think the Wii Series is utterly lame.  So personally the Wii is just the same old franchises because that one new franchise didn't do it for me.  If Miyamoto and EAD busted out more than that, it wouldn't matter.  It's similar to why third party support is important.  Without it you end up relying on one company that can only do so much.  So you have to wait months for any thing worthwhile but when it comes, if you don't like it, you've got to wait around for several more months for something else and you hope to hell you like that.
 
The big problem with Nintendo consoles over the last three generations has been a lack of variety.  The weak third party support, the reliance on sequels, the family-friendly image, and currently one company trying to make titles for casuals and core gamers all contribute to it.  Nintendo turns off third parties so they end up being the only game in town and then they themselves suck at providing any variety outside this very narrow scope of image and target audience.  For all their talk about being innovative they are embarassingly safe and conventional.  They cram every demographic into a melting pot and crank out something for the least common denominator.  But if you want something truly interesting it just isn't offered anymore.

[Stogi]

The Miis are more or less not IP at all.  They're just a visual avatar for the player himself.  If anything it gives Nintendo the ability to avoid creating new characters altogether since they can just shove the Miis in there.  Hell, they're doing that with the new Pilotwings.

How is having Mii's in WiiSports make WiiSports not a new IP?

And I'm glad Nintendo created Mii's and I hope they are used in all games that have ZERO story, because they're perfect. Pilotwings makes perfect sense, as does any sport games or party mini-game compilation.

[Luigi Dude]

I feel these two quotes demonstrate Nintendo's weakness in generating new IP.  They do it so rarely that if you don't care for it specifically, you are SOL.  If they were constantly cranking out new stuff then if you didn't like this, you might like that.  There would be variety.  But since we get about one a generation, you better hope you like what they come up with.  I think the Wii Series is utterly lame.  So personally the Wii is just the same old franchises because that one new franchise didn't do it for me.  If Miyamoto and EAD busted out more than that, it wouldn't matter.  It's similar to why third party support is important.  Without it you end up relying on one company that can only do so much.  So you have to wait months for any thing worthwhile but when it comes, if you don't like it, you've got to wait around for several more months for something else and you hope to hell you like that.
 
The big problem with Nintendo consoles over the last three generations has been a lack of variety.  The weak third party support, the reliance on sequels, the family-friendly image, and currently one company trying to make titles for casuals and core gamers all contribute to it.  Nintendo turns off third parties so they end up being the only game in town and then they themselves suck at providing any variety outside this very narrow scope of image and target audience.  For all their talk about being innovative they are embarassingly safe and conventional.  They cram every demographic into a melting pot and crank out something for the least common denominator.  But if you want something truly interesting it just isn't offered anymore.

So by your logic if a new IP doesn't come from an EAD studio it doesn't count, give me a break.  Nintendo has created a wide variety of new IP's during the last decade from all their other studio's as well as working together with third party developers that are anything but safe and conventional.

Looks like I need to post the f*cking list AGAIN.

Legend of Starfy
Drill Dozer
Rhythm Heaven
The bit Generations series
Band Brothers
Nintendogs
Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents
Polarium
Another Code
Electroplankton
Jump Super Stars
Magnetica
Brain Training
Big Brain Academy
Magical Starsign
Hotel Dusk
ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat
Soma Bringer
Fossil Fighters
Style Savvy
Tomodachi Collection
Geist
Chibi-Robo
Odama
Endless Ocean
Captain Rainbow
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Tact of Magic
Zangeki no Reginleiv
FlingSmash
Xenoblade
The Last Story


Until you play every single f*cking game from every single series on this list Ian, you have no right to say Nintendo lacks variety and creativity.  There's a lot more to Nintendo then just the EAD studio's and you need to finally realize that.

[Mop it up]

N64 - No new IP's but arguably the most impressive sequels; Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, OOT, Star Fox 64

What about Wave Race? Although I s'pose that's technically Game Boy...

[ThomasO]

Until you play every single f*cking game from every single series on this list Ian, you have no right to say Nintendo lacks variety and creativity.  There's a lot more to Nintendo then just the EAD studio's and you need to finally realize that.

Ian's reply will most likely be "well, because Reggie's a shithead I can't play many of those games as they're available only in Europe or Japan."

[Mop it up]

To be fair, that's a valid complaint.

[ThomasO]

True, though the complaint still doesn't disprove that Nintendo generates new IPs and variety.

[Mop it up]

I guess it changes the complaint to that Nintendo doesn't push their new IPs well enough. They don't try many of them outside of Japan (or Europe in some cases) and they don't seem to receive the advertising or other general hype as their popular franchises or the Wii Series. That's at least my complaint anyway, I know they've created quite a few new IPs recently but most of them don't seem to go anywhere for one reason or another. Sometimes it's just from unfortunate lack of sales, but other times it feels like Nintendo doesn't push their new IP enough.

[Stogi]

There is no point to the complaints though. There are several games on the Wii that even the most hard headed can enjoy. It's just the fact that they...you know, dismiss them before they even attempt to understand them.

[Ian Sane]

Here's the easy way to do it.  I don't give a crap about lame stuff like Giest or Endless Ocean.  This isn't like some court of law where you can hit me up on technicalities.  Listing a bunch of new IP doesn't mean squat.  I am unsatisified with the new IP.  Most of it is from the third tier devs and I want stuff from the BIG devs like EAD or IS.  I don't buy Nintendo systems to play games from the lesser devs.

Miyamoto matters a lot.  His involvement is probably the biggest reason why anyone would buy a Nintendo system.  So if he is playing it safe with the same franchises that is pretty weak.  If the one new IP he introduces is aimed at a target demo that I am not part of it, that sucks.

There is a handful of people on this thread saying they're not satisfied regarding Nintendo introducing new IP.  That should not be the case.  It should be so abundant that virtually no one is left behind.  It is all a matter of opinion so listing off a bunch of titles like this is a scientific matter doesn't mean anything.  They don't have enough variety for me so I'm going to voice that opinion.  You can't change anyone's mind by producing some big list and saying that technically our requests have been fulfilled.  The person making the request decides that.

It's the same thing with third party support.  Someone inevitably dumps some list of every third party game on the system as if that is sufficient.  Obviously I must be wrong because third party games exist and it's all black and white science.  A system with true variety covers all bases.  You should be able to find something you like even if you are picky or selective.

If you look at the PS3 you'll see games like Uncharted that are new to this generation that are specifically designed with the intention of them being a big series for Sony.  It's one of their top devs working on it, at the expense of the existing IP they could be working on, and the game is pushed as a big must-own title for the system.  The new IP is treated as the main course, not some side dish.  You can't compare Captain Rainbow to Resistance, Uncharted, Infamous or LittleBigPlanet.  Those four new IPs were treated like Nintendo treats their big franchises, before they even had proven themselves.  Nintendo rarely takes risks like that.  Pikmin is a good example because it was clear that they were giving it the attention of a proven series like Mario.  They should have multiple "Pikmins" every generation.

Nintendo made three Mario platforms for the Wii and two Metroids.  Is that really necessary?  Couldn't Super Mario Galaxy, NSMB Wii and Metroid Prime 3 been sufficient to meet the demand for those series to continue?  That frees up two major projects for new IP.  I mean I think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is awesome but I wouldn't have cared one way or another if Nintendo had dedicated that effort to something else.  I don't need that many Mario games per generation.  They could easily balance sequels and new IP from their major teams.  It isn't like Miyamoto has to stop working on Mario and Zelda to find the time to create something new.

[broodwars]

There is no point to the complaints though. There are several games on the Wii that even the most hard headed can enjoy. It's just the fact that they...you know, dismiss them before they even attempt to understand them.

I've played the vast majority of Nintendo titles released on the Wii this generation in NA, some I've really liked; others less so; and several I've strongly disliked.  But when...

- I had to buy a PS2 (and then a PS3) to supplement the game experiences that Nintendo was ensuring I could not get on more than a rare occurrence on the Wii in NA, yeah I have and will continue to complain about that.

- I'm having to scrounge through WiiWare and Virtual Console titles released after 2008 (that I haven't already bought) so I can get the remaining coins I need to reach Platinum status for the year because Nintendo is flat-out not releasing Wii titles this year outside the craptacular Mario Sports Mix and the continually-delayed Skyward Sword...yeah, I'm going to complain about that.

- Nintendo experiments with new IPs in Japan and then NoA (the puppet arm of Nintendo Japan) seemingly-refuses to publish them over here so I can try them, yeah I'm going to complain about that.

I suppose a lot of this comes down to how extremely profit-focused NoA is on top of Nintendo Japan's stubbornness, as it is so rare to get "niche" Nintendo titles in NA anymore and that's where a lot of the company's more interesting titles are these days.  Outside of a handful of titles (Punch-Out, Sin & Punishment 2, etc.), it's rare to see something over here (at least on Wii) that's not a guaranteed seller from a major franchise.  No, I'm not going to play the likes of Endless Ocean, but considering so many of the Wii's "casual" audience will never play Metroid Prime 3, I don't see the problem there.