Author Topic: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled  (Read 15515 times)

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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2010, 11:03:24 AM »
It's probably a combination of a couple of factors.  Firstly, Nintendo's size limit on WiiWare games.  Secondly, the fact that Team Meat probably COULD have worked to cram it all in there, but they probably sized up the situation and decided that the extra time and effort wasn't worth it from a business perspective.  I mean, it's not like Nintendo is going to do stuff like make a demo for the game, or advertise it beyond maybe the Nintendo channel.

There just isn't much incentive for independent developers to work with Nintendo on WiiWare titles, and it really sucks.
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Offline coffeewithgames

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2010, 11:24:44 AM »
"I mean, it's not like Nintendo is going to do stuff like make a demo for the game, or advertise it beyond maybe the Nintendo channel."
[/size]
[font=helvetica, arial, 'liberation sans', sans-serif][/size]Well, Nintendo is improving slowly in the demo department, so I wouldn't say dismissing a demo is correct.[/font]
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The demo situation though, is up to the developers from what I understand...and they must make and submit it to Nintendo for approval.[/font]
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Offline happyastoria

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2010, 12:37:05 PM »
Hmmmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this game first being developed for the Wii? Also, I swear it was Nintendo that went up to Team Meat to make this game, so that makes Team Meat a bunch of backstabbers? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2010, 12:38:46 PM »
Lindy has a great post, and hits the very heart of the matter.  While surely possible to compress the game with enough effort, it apparently isn't worthwhile for Team Meat (especially if the 360/PC versions are already available and selling) to make that extra effort.  Business decisions aren't always what gamers want... but they really are what drives development.


One thing I don't understand, however, is blame being placed on Nintendo.  The limit for WiiWare sucks, and I'm not giving them a free pass there... but that limit was CLEARLY understood when Super Meat Boy was starting development.

What upsets me is how Team Meat announced the game first on WiiWare, publicized the game for months on that service (although I don't recall them ever talking about it being "exclusive" and don't believe any such claims), and then created a game that ignored all known limitations of the system.  It's not smart development, it's not smart marketing*, and it's annoying as piss to people who actually believed the game would come out on Wii.

*This is debatable.  Maybe it's smart marketing to get your name out as much as possible, and it certainly seemed to build anticipation and hype for Super Meat Boy before release.  It also left a lot of people disappointed and/or upset with Team Meat though.


From a total fanboy perspective, it feels like a money-hat situation.  Their contract with MS prevents PSN release, and (oops!) the game doesn't fit on Wii and isn't worth spending time and effort to compress.  At least it's not a surprise: all signs have been pointing this way for months now.  As a Wii-only gamer (due to budget, not choice), Team Meat is on my blacklist by default.  Screw them - I've already got more games than I have time for, so why care about small dev studios who choose not to meet their promises?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 12:41:10 PM by ejamer »
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Offline happyastoria

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2010, 12:58:20 PM »
I would like to share a comment posted on Destructoid:

"Nintendo came to them to ask for a bigger version of Super Meat Boy, and they were to develop for them a WiiWare version.  http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/indie-queue/5931-Indie-Queue-Meat-Boy-Gets-Supersized
 
They haven't given Nintendo ANYTHING.  ANYTHING.  Instead, they developed for the XBLA, and released a PC port which I've heard was bug riddled, and now they're saying "Oh, Nintendo's file size restrictions are the problems" and not the fact that they didn't develop for the system, like they were supposed to.
 
They owe Nintendo SOMETHING for their success, as they really wouldn't have Super Meat Boy without them.

I don't care if a Nintendo release would result in a loss of profit, it needs to happen.  It's the least they can do, since they wouldn't have made the damn game in the first place if Nintendo didn't come forward in asking for a game.  I understand why Team Meat doesn't want the game chopped up, but it's pretty shortsighted of them to be asked to make a game for a console, and not pay attention to the maximum file size.  In fact, it's stupid.
 
Don't shaft Nintendo, Team Meat, they're the only reason you've had your success."

He makes a lot of good points.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 01:01:39 PM by happyastoria »

Offline broodwars

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2010, 01:14:23 PM »
Figures.  Nintendo puts out a digital download service infamously unfriendly to small developers (between the file size limit, the lack of marketing, and until recently the lack of demos), a small developer finds it's not worth it to make a bastardized version of the game for that service, and naturally people blame the developer.  Guys, we've been hearing complaints from small developers about the problems with WiiWare for years.  Remember when Telltale Games was complaining about the many issues with WiiWare when they were releasing Monkey Island (they even named a location in the game after one such problem)?  Yeah, they saw that WiiWare wasn't going to work out, so they took their game to a service where the console maker actually gives a damn if they succeed.  Oh yeah, let's blame the developers for Nintendo's lack of interest in putting out a service that suits anyone else's needs than their own.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2010, 02:20:51 PM »
@broodwars:
Don't you think that TellTale Games is a bad example though?  They are another company that doesn't know how to compress games well, and haven't even put in enough polish to even have their games run well on the (considerably more powerful) 360.  And let's not even start talking about pricing of those downloadable episodes...

Nintendo's downloadable service has one huge flaw: Nintendo hasn't been involved enough in promoting and advertising the service and the games available.  File size restrictions aren't the end of the world when it's a known factor going in, and there are numerous examples of small developers who claim that Nintendo has been very good to work with during the development process.  All of this was known before Super Meat Boy was announced as an upcoming WiiWare title.



@happyastoria:
The reason Team Meat has experienced success is because their game is (by all accounts) very good and worth playing.  They don't owe Nintendo anything in that regard, as far as I can tell, and deserve whatever success they might find.  The sentiment and sense of disappointment is something that I can certainly relate to though!
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2010, 02:24:48 PM »
Figures.  Nintendo puts out a digital download service infamously unfriendly to small developers (between the file size limit, the lack of marketing, and until recently the lack of demos), a small developer finds it's not worth it to make a bastardized version of the game for that service, and naturally people blame the developer.  Guys, we've been hearing complaints from small developers about the problems with WiiWare for years.  Remember when Telltale Games was complaining about the many issues with WiiWare when they were releasing Monkey Island (they even named a location in the game after one such problem)?  Yeah, they saw that WiiWare wasn't going to work out, so they took their game to a service where the console maker actually gives a damn if they succeed.  Oh yeah, let's blame the developers for Nintendo's lack of interest in putting out a service that suits anyone else's needs than their own.

This.

I am sorry guys, while I do agree that Team Meat made mistakes, I think Nintendo is the bigger culprit here. Team Meat LOVED Nintendo, BELIEVED in the WiiWare service. They kept singing its praises back in the day, just like many other indie developers did. Nintendo sold them a dream that they would limit in the end.

Truth is Nintendo kept botching up WiiWare. Yes, we have a storage solution, but the size limitations remain the same. Yes, we have demos but they are only for a limited time. I mean, they are so limited that Gaijin Games told people to buy their games so they can rate them on the Nintendo channel and thus the demo stays there FOR TWO MORE WEEKS. Most people that buy the Wii have no idea that it can connect online and download games. The advertising for WiiWare games suck. A trailer on the Nintendo Channel for a week and POOF, its gone. Developers would have to rely on luck and word of mouth just to get sales. Finally, even if the game gets a lot of promotion and great ratings the chances for success are small, especially when you compete against killer apps like My Aquarium and The Hungry Caterpillar.

Team Meat is not a big company with disposable income like Activision and EA. They NEED the money in order to keep creating games. It's very likely that they saw that the grass WAS indeed greener on the Xbox and PC side and decided to give that a chance, and they have seen a much deserved success there. To me, this isn't about them screwing over. Yes it sucks that Nintendo fans won't be able to play it on the Wii but with the economy in such a bad state right now developers need to SURVIVE first and foremost.


Also, Team Meat should have the right to create the game they want to create. Obviously, their vision of the game is bigger than the WiiWare service allows it to. A lot are saying "hey, compress that fucker!", but there's more to it than that. Compressing is an ideal solution, but they would still need to cut out a lot of stuff just to make it happen. They simply don't want a botched idea of their product.

Seriously people, stop trying to paint Nintendo as the main victim here. They have made many mistakes that have affected many developers, and Team Meat is just another cautionary tale for everyone to take note of.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 02:28:54 PM by NWR_pap64 »
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Offline Ryan Cannon

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2010, 02:29:07 PM »
Well this sucks, this was one Wiiware game I was getting excited about, because lately a lot of them have sucked! I guess moving to the Xbox was a good move, and the Computer because almost everyone has one. but i would rather play this game on a system. *sigh* maybe they should make the game bigger and better and then release it for the 3DS. of course that would take time and money, but I know I would buy it. unless of coarse they made it an iphone app
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Offline Killer_Man_Jaro

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2010, 02:42:01 PM »
I'd be lying if I said I was surprised, but this is deeply unfortunate if this was the only version you had access to (glad I got Super Meat Boy off Steam while it was cheap). The 40MB limit has made no sense since the SD Card patch -- with all the extra gigabytes to work with, file size should be irrelevant.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2010, 03:19:06 PM »
Super Meat Boy is insanely fun. It's not very demanding on your system either. Seriously, who doesn't have a PC nowadays? No one is being deprived of the game except for maybe Nintendo themselves. And you know what, I don't think that it bothers Nintendo at all. Nintendo only cares about catering to their own games and to Hell with everyone else, fans and consumers included. What's ironic is that the game is so full of references and allusions, that you'd expect it to have been originally released on the SNES.

I do wish that they hadn't limited the unlockable characters to specific platforms however. As much as I enjoy the Minecraft guy, I really wanted to play around with Tim from Braid.
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Offline NWR_Neal

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2010, 03:36:24 PM »
First off, Nintendo's attempt at demos is improving, but it still a joke compared to XBLA and PSN. Yes, they're making larges strides in the right direction, but it still sucks.

Second, from talking to the guys at Team Meat a few times, this is the story of the game's genesis:
Nintendo met with Edmund at GDC or something along those lines. Nintendo told them to contact them later. Team Meat contacted them later, and then after some discussion, Super Meat Boy came into existence.
I also know from talking to them that the XBLA release was in the works for a long time, but because of Microsoft's policies, they couldn't announce it until closer to release.

Also, that article that someone linked to before has a line in it that makes me feel bad for Team Meat. They had to scrap together for a Wii dev kit, which ain't exactly cheap. Yes, Nintendo might have suggested that they make Super Meat Boy, but Team Meat actually invested a lot of time and money into Wii development.
I could suggest to the dude who made VVVVVV that he makes Super VVVVVV for consoles, but I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape if the game comes out on XBLA and not WiiWare. I have no real investment in the game; I just think it would be cool. I'm inclined to believe from what I've read that that is all that Nintendo did.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2010, 03:41:58 PM »
A Wii dev kit is $2,000, which is super cheap as far as dev kits go.
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Offline Retro Deckades

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2010, 04:38:01 PM »
A Wii dev kit is $2,000, which is super cheap as far as dev kits go.

$2,000 + the money needed to rent/own a location that has a different address than your residential one.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2010, 04:57:18 PM »
...

Seriously people, stop trying to paint Nintendo as the main victim here. They have made many mistakes that have affected many developers, and Team Meat is just another cautionary tale for everyone to take note of.


A good question: who is the "victim"?  Not Nintendo, who (at most) might like Super Meat Boy to be on their console as another small flag to wave in an effort to prove the service isn't severely flawed for indie devs.  Certainly not Team Meat, who are making the decisions necessary to earn enough money from their development effort regardless of what announcements were made earlier.  The only victim that I see are people who actually believed the game would be coming out on WiiWare as stated, people who wanted to play the game exclusively on that platform...


It is funny to see how many people need to draw lines and point fingers at one side or the other being at fault.  For everyone trying to paint Nintendo as a victim, there is someone else painting them as a villain.  In actuality, they don't fit either role, aren't really even involved in this particular decision, and probably don't care that much about the whole thing.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2010, 04:59:07 PM »
Well Nintendo has admitted that their current online system sucks and they're looking for ways to improve it for their next systems.  The problem with this though is they've basically written it off as a lost cause now and would rather just start over on their next system then try to fix the current one.

So if we're lucky, maybe Super Meat Boy will be able to show up on the 3DS since if Nintendo seriously made the 3DS with third parties in mind then I'd imagine it'll have a higher size limit for digital download games then the Wii does.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2010, 05:01:20 PM »
I would love to have the game in portable form. Even though I already own it on XBLA and Steam, I'd buy it again if it came to 3DS.
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Offline TheFleece

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2010, 06:17:53 PM »
Some quotes from a Joystiq article:

"We knew of the limits early on but overestimated our ability to get Nintendo to raise the file size," McMillen said. "It's lame that there is a 40MB cap on WiiWare games ... but it was our fault for blindly assuming this cap wasn't set in stone, and we are sorry for that." McMillen added that the team's finances would take a hit after the file-size showdown, but it wouldn't wither their support of Nintendo platforms in the future.

"Right now we have talked to three larger publishers who have passed on the title because they believe Wii retail is a bad idea profit wise. Most places we have talked to believe that only Nintendo brand games sell well on their system and don't even understand why we want to release Wii retail."

When asked if Super Meat Boy's problematic squishing crisis could have been foreseen back in 2009, Edmund gave us this answer: "Probably, honestly we got so lost in making a cool game we totally forgot about how strict the limitations for the Wii were, we just wanted to make something huge and the game got a little out of control."

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/24/super-meat-boy-what-went-wrong-with-wiiware/
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2010, 06:30:44 PM »
The victim, I would say, are the Wii owners who want the game but can't play it. If the reason they can't play it is because of Nintendo's silly policies and limited online vision, then Nintendo is pretty much the villain here, assuming one has a need to point fingers. Honestly, the best way to send a message to Nintendo is with your wallets. Unfortunately, most of us aren't willing to do that. I might detest many of Nintendo's boneheaded moves, but I'm not going to not buy Zelda. Nintendo is and always will be in the driver's seat. Their ability to produce phenomenal software will ensure that they remain profitable which, in turn, ensures their ability to sell mediocre hardware and enforce facepalm inducing policies. Conventional wisdom would suggest that someone at Nintendo would have learned years ago that they're making significantly less money by being so.... well, Nintendo. I still have high hopes for 3DS... though part of me feels like a beaten wife going back to her abusive husband who will never learn.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2010, 06:41:35 PM »
Nintendo is not the villain here, at all. The cap size has been known for years, so don't get mad at them because a developer didn't want to make a game that size. If anything, Team Meat is the villain because they announced it as a WiiWare game, then said they would release the game with few features, then said they wouldn't bother. Team Meat look worse in this situation.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2010, 09:15:28 PM »
So, wait... You're seriously chastising Team Meat for deciding to add a bunch of stuff to make their game better, something we all hope for, if not flat-out expect, from every decent developer. What is this? I don't even....

In 2006, Xbox Live Arcade used to have a 50MB limit. When Konami said they couldn't fit Symphony of the Night within those limitations, Microsoft actually increased the limit just for the game which seems like peanuts now considering the current limit is something like 2GB. For a company like Nintendo that values quality above all else, it's absolutely ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical, for Nintendo to force or even politely ask any developer to sacrifice their vision of a particular game because of a file size limit. Nintendo could simply... oh, I don't know, lift that restriction. What exactly does Nintendo have to lose? (Hint: nothing) When 3rd parties have all but abandoned the Wii for greener pastures, you'd think Nintendo would be a little more flexible when any company willingly offers their services. Given these circumstances, I'm a little surprised Nintendo even allowed WayForward to sell Shantae: Risky's Revenge for 1200 Points earlier this year.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2010, 09:21:56 PM »
They announced it as a WiiWare game, then bitched about it being too big but saying they would make it fit, now basically telling Wii owners "F*** you, we don't want to put the effort in". They knew the cap size but chose to ignore it because they thought Nintendo would give them (some third party developer that no one had even heard of before this game) permission to go above it.

Microsoft is determined to take Sony down no matter what the cost, that is why they let Konami go up the cap limit on XBLA for the game.
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Offline leroypantweather

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2010, 09:31:54 PM »
so for all the linux running wii owning ps3 playing gamers out there, we gets noooooooooo love,  booooooooooooo team meat booooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2010, 09:49:25 PM »
The 50 MB cap for XBLA games was based on the idea that there were people with 360s without hard drives, and the original memory cards Microsoft sold for the system were 64 MB, so Microsoft set the limit so any game would fit on one of them. The initial raise of the limit was, as TJ Spyke said, to prevent Symphony of the Nighht from being exclusive to PSN. Over time the proportion of 360 owners without hard drives has dwindled, and that combined with newer firmware allowing people to use any USB drive as storage has let them increase the limit.

I think the idea that the 40 MB limit is something that Nintendo can't change because of how they designed the system is the only one that makes any sense at this point. Nintendo is an incredibly stubborn company, but I truly believe they would have upped the limit by this point if they could. If this is indeed the case, the best we can hope for is that they were smart enough to design the 3DS (and all future systems) in a way that it wouldn't be a problem.

Looking for a villain in this isn't going to help anything. Nintendo made some boneheaded, shortsighted mistakes when designing the Wii hardware, but there isn't really anything they can do at this point. Team Meat made an amazing game, but it's too big to fit on WiiWare, and they'd rather not release it than cut a whole bunch of stuff out of it to make it fit. I understand why someone with no other way to play it would be upset about that, but if they're not comfortable releasing what they feel is an inferior version of their product, I respect their artistic integrity.

I urge everyone here who hasn't already done so to play this game on one of the other platforms; don't let bad feelings toward the developer prevent you from playing what I consider to be one of the absolute best games of 2010.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2010, 10:02:52 PM »
So, wait... You're seriously chastising Team Meat for deciding to add a bunch of stuff to make their game better, something we all hope for, if not flat-out expect, from every decent developer.

Game isn't better if I can't play it.
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