Topic: Episode 216: Made from Real Explosions

[Yoshidious]

Special guest Nathan Fouts tells us about designing (and selling) 2D action games.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/24345

It's still just the three of us for most of this episode, but our special guest did arrive for an awesome middle segment. First, though, we've got the Layton vs. Gyakuten announcement, an ode to Retronauts, and in-depth impressions of Endless Ocean 2, Drill Dozer, Super Meat Boy, and of course, Kirby's new console game.

The focus on 2D platformers continues into part two, when Nathan Fouts of Mommy's Best Games and 8 Bit Horse pops in to pimp his wares (which are worthy of much pimping) and philosophize on how to design an exploration-based 2D action game. He takes us on a journey through heavy metal artwork, 2D games of yore, and even Cho-Aniki -- wherefore art thou, Jon Lindemann? Be sure to check out Nathan's killer indie games on Xbox 360: Weapon of Choice, Shoot 1up, and Explosionade, with Grapple Buggy due next year.

The RFN crew wraps up this big episode with a promised batch of Listener Mail. We answer your burning questions about game-specific podcasts, narrative innovation in Star Fox 64, and Kirby's slow-paced gameplay mechanics. Keep those emails coming, and be sure to vote in the next RetroActive poll to help select which Nintendo DS game we'll play together and discuss on an upcoming episode. See you next week!

[Shaymin]

Loved the Retronauts pimping - it was one of my first podcasts as well. And now that both Sharkey and Ray have both been laid off, there's even less of a chance of it coming back.

Other episodes I'd recommend:
#30 - Chrono Trigger
#35 - Saturn
#36 - Phantasy Star
#48 - Famicom

[broodwars]

The response (Jonny's, specifically) to that reader Email on Kirby's Epic Yarn pretty much solidified my belief that this game has nothing for me outside of a cool art style.  Like the guy who sent that email, I'm also a little disturbed by just how much reviewers seem to be giving this game a free pass on gameplay just due to a cool art design.  Giant Bomb's recent Quick Look of the game was especially sickening, as it just consisted of continuous gushing from 30-40 year old men gushing about how "CUUUUUUUTTEEE!" the game was.  Hopefully, Donkey Kong Country Returns will have more of that exploration-based 2D adventure platforming that I get into.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Having just defeated the final boss, I'd argue Kirby's Epic Yarn definitely gets trickier, at least if you're going for all treasures and gold medals. There's definitely more to the game than cuteness. I'm a seasoned platformer fan that was critical of Kirby's last outing. There are some clever level designs and gameplay mechanics that emerge over the course of the game, and most of the levels feel distinct. The transformations are especially interesting in co-op, because not unlike in Mario Kart: Double Dash, you really need to communicate and coordinate with your partner to succeed.

Yeah, the gameplay isn't HARD, especially if you don't care about gold medals, and the exploration isn't as complex as in Wario Land: Shake It. But it's still fun, and I wouldn't call the exploration element trivial. Honestly, to me the gameplay feels like a mix of Wario Land 2 and Yoshi's Island, only less intricate.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Although the graphics are garnering lavish praise, I don't think that's the sole reason for Epic Yarn's strong reception. In fact, the general consensus I've heard which is encouraging me to pick it up in the New Year is that the level design is so good that the fact it is easy doesn't really matter.

Good catch on getting Nathan Fouts on the show. I know he's not particularly well-known (if it weren't for a mention on the infamous Drunkcast, I wouldn't have heard of him), but he has an interesting history in the gaming world and seems very on top of games old and new. That's the thing you notice about independent developers - quite a lot of the time, they have a better grasp on what the consumer likes than some of the big name companies, as they more often than not become involved in communities. Case in point, 8 Bit Horse, which at first glance is looking pretty cool.
I especially enjoyed when he asked everyone about how they want exploration in games because it brought up a handful of thought-provoking conundrums that developers struggle with. Primarily, when Nathan talked about Galaxy 2, although what he said applies to tonnes of games, and mentioned the challenge for the developer to give a reward for exploring. It's a good point, and one that's incredibly difficult to get right.
For example, we frequently encounter in platformers the curious choice of leaving 1-Ups in secret little nooks. If you have the intuition to find your way to said secret places, you probably have the intuition to push through the game without needing extra lives. The players who can't find their way to these places, they are the ones who need the lives, but they don't receive them, because the reward for playing well is something that makes it easier. Rewards in general within games, not just for exploring, can be strange, like how in shooters, the more skilled players are awarded perks, when obviously they are not the ones who would need those perks.

I did ramble on a bit there, though I guess that's a testament to the complexity of the subject. Thanks for another superb episode, and you might be happy to hear that I've ordered a copy of Endless Ocean 2 based on your recommendation. Ta.

[happyastoria]

Greg, the way you feel about Retronauts is the way I feel about RFN. You made me laugh when times are down. You pull me up when life's to rough, etc. lol

Kirby's Epic Yarn is comparison to Flower. It's a laid back experience. Everyone knows what this games is about, and nobody should be surprised when they buy it. Kind of reminds me of SMG 2, some gamers were mad because it was "more of the same", but anybody can tell that by doing a simple youtube search.

[Sundoulos]

Loved the Retronauts pimping - it was one of my first podcasts as well. And now that both Sharkey and Ray have both been laid off, there's even less of a chance of it coming back.

Other episodes I'd recommend:
#30 - Chrono Trigger
#35 - Saturn
#36 - Phantasy Star
#48 - Famicom

Oh, wow... seriously?  I liked what Ray was doing with the Sound Test podcast, too.  1up keeps taking away all the reasons I had to actually visit their site.  As of late, the only draw has been the feature Neal wrote on Virtual Boy.   

[FZeroBoyo]

I must say, I'm quite interested in Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light despite hearing how even James is having a hard time with it. I'm also eager to play Kirby's Epic Yarn.


The feature was also entertaining, and the part about 2-D platformers stood out. I certainly hope Donkey Kong Country Returns gives us a good challenge.


Lastly, I hope Nintendo keeps the original content in Star Fox 64 for 3DS. That is all you need to pull me in. 

[NWR_Neal]

While I can't speak for other reviewers, I gave no such free pass for Kirby because of its cute art style. I found the gameplay to be really inventive and awesome. The level design isn't necessarily difficult, but it's very enjoyable and rewarding. The art style helped make the game great, but it is not the only reason I think it's one of the best games of the year. I think it's one of the best games of the year because of how clever it is.

[MegaByte]

Also, it's not just that it has a cute art style, it's that the art style is inextricably connected in the gameplay.  That makes a huge difference.

[noname2200]

Just want to put in a good word for Etrian (et-tree-en) Odyssey.  I'm not sure why Nathan compared it to a roguelike, unless he's referring to the above-average difficulty, but I'm confident that James at least would really enjoy it.  It's somewhat like Strange Journey, with a good mixture of Final Fantasy V's class and sub-class system thrown in for good measure.  For an RPG fanatic-slash-masochist, it seems like the game would work out perfectly for him.

[mjafyx]

Here's an interview with the Super meat boy guys.
http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2010/10/indiegamescom_podcast_5_super.html
They mention that the music of the Wii version will be quite compressed. So i will be getting it for the PC since i don't have a 360.

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm still playing Super Meat Boy and it gets even better... and even more cruel. The "final boss" is a superb tribute to Super Mario Bros. Now that I've completed the main quest, it's on to the Dark World and collecting bandages to unlock more characters.

[Plugabugz]

You asked a question of why his games are not on WiiWare but what about PSN?

[Hyrulian Guard]

RFN moved to the #1 spot on my podcast list, a few months back.
 i see now that was a mistake. Not only did your Speacial guest have nothing to
do with nintendo, he admitted he doesnt even want to.
 that being said, instead of JIZZING on that idiot, how about interviewing
 people like Jools Watsham of Renegade kids or Matt Bozon of
 Wayforward. Those two for example not only develope for Nintendo
 but love pumping out awesome games for nintendo fans.
 
 After this show i never will buy a game from M.B.G. and encouage everyone
i know (admiitedly a small group) to avoid those titles.
 I have a 360, im not nintendo only, but i can go to itunes and subscribe
 to any of 50  360,PS3, or multiplatform podcasts.
 
 I find it insulting to your listener base, that you spent 1/3 of the RADIO FREE NINTENDO
Podcasts 1hr 45mins spugging over a developer that has not and WILL NOT make a  single nintendo Game.  FOR SHAME Jonathan Metts, shame on you.
 
 Maybe if you spent less time pimping 360 games, you would have time for more
 of your listeners mail.


 

[Plugabugz]

He said clearly in his response to Jonny as to why he's not making games on WiiWare owing to Nintendo's restrictive registration practices (he works in an office in his home, and Nintendo don't allow same-address places of work) and he also said he's not in a place to want to develop for DS. Given the DS is a physical platform with a different setup altogether than digital distribution methods (which he uses) can you blame him?

It really is Nintendo's loss in this case, especially with silly WiiWare rules like that.

[Hyrulian Guard]

AAGAIN, you would interview this guy why?  to pimp 360 games. thats it.
 
 as for nintendos rules, they suck.  but im loving Shantae.
 and Renegade kid makes only DS games, maybe you can talk to them.
 
 crap. must be on the radio free multiplatform podcast boards. sorry, was thinking people came to NWR for nintendo, my mistake, obviously u cant get 360 or ps3
 news anywhere else.

[Plugabugz]

as for nintendos rules, they suck.

I'm glad you agree on this. Now it's his decision whether to develop for Nintendo platforms or not, and he chose not to because of what appears to be his business practices (digital platforms) and requirements that Nintendo laid down that he cannot meet.

I'm disappointed but at least he's being reasonable about it.

I have no problem with the guys talking about stuff other than Nintendo. I have a PS3 and Jonny's lavish praise about Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light made me deliberately go and redeem my £20 PSN voucher and get the demo (expecting to buy the game). I wouldn't have heard this because i don't listen to other podcasts elsewhere.

[broodwars]

Hyrulian Guard, if you dislike this podcast so much for being "so multiplatform" (as you have made clear multiple times in the past), why do you still listen to it?  Go somewhere else or stop complaining, because I'm getting tired of reading your complaints about a quality product like this that people put so much work into and you get for free.  I like having something to balance out the conversation about Nintendo products that sometimes I really couldn't care less about.  Besides, iirc (the interview bored me so thoroughly that it's hard to remember) a lot of the interview was life as an independent developer and conversation about game design.  That stuff's universal, not just specific to any one platform.  It's not their fault that Nintendo's requirements for WiiWare are apparently so asinine that they're chasing developers away.

[Retro Deckades]

Proper spelling and punctuation can go a long way towards being taken seriously. While we're at it, so can a good argument.

As for Kirby's Epic Yarn, it's game play is about as solid as it gets.

[Hyrulian Guard]

Yup. Anyone who disagrees, get out! That's what America
was founded on. Don't know where ur from but
we charish other peoples right to complain.

As for listening, I may not be doing that long and
leaving nwr and not coming back. Apparently
people here don't think nintendo has any merit
and feels pushing xbla games on a supposed
nintendo site is fine.
You discussed me with ur " my way or the highway "
attitude.

[broodwars]

Yup. Anyone who disagrees, get out! That's what America
was founded on. Don't know where ur from but
we charish other peoples right to complain.

As for listening, I may not be doing that long and
leaving nwr and not coming back. Apparently
people here don't think nintendo has any merit
and feels pushing xbla games on a supposed
nintendo site is fine.
You discussed me with ur " my way or the highway "
attitude.

In the words of Linkara: "Because Poor Literacy is KEWL!"
 
Dude, I of all people don't have an issue with offering criticism.  The problem is that it's all you do with this podcast.  You've made it thoroughly clear that you don't like how this show operates, yet you keep listening to it and whine about it every time the cast decides to talk about something they're into at the moment that's not a Nintendo product.  Some people would call that the very definition of insanity (or stupidity), and frankly it gets on my nerves.  If you don't like the show, don't listen to it.  You are the only person making you listen to this podcast that you don't like.  It really is as simple as that.

[Hyrulian Guard]

You know your right.
 I'm out.
 enjoy your XBX discussions.

[Jonnyboy117]

I appreciate the feedback and criticism. Although I think your views represent a small minority of our listeners, it's important to hear those views, and we do take them into consideration. However, your tone is extremely off-putting. We are much more likely to listen to you if you treat us (and our guests!) with respect and politeness.

It seems you are new to this website in general, so let me tell you something about it. We are 100% independently operated and funded. Our entire staff works for no pay, and yet we strive for the same level of professionalism that you will get at IGN, Gamespot, 1up, etc. If you want to doubt whether we love Nintendo, ask the numerous staff members who have been doing this volunteer work for 7-8 years. We are adults, most of us with real jobs, and we have broad interests in gaming and beyond. We do what we do because we love doing it. That goes for the entire website, and all the podcasts as well.

Look around the web and iTunes for other Nintendo-focused podcasts. You won't find very many. Now consider how many of those are any good. Now filter out the ones that ever mention or discuss any non-Nintendo games/systems. I don't think you'll have anything left to listen to. If we only talked about Nintendo games and only answered emails directly about Nintendo games, the show would be less than an hour long each week. Furthermore, we'd have to specifically purchase a lot more Nintendo games to make up the difference, games that we may not actually care about... with our own money! Sheer economics demand that we can only talk about games we were going to buy/rent anyway. And all four of us on the show are multiplatform gamers, so obviously we want to play games on multiple platforms. That would apply to virtually anyone on our staff.

We made considerable efforts to keep Nintendo at the focus point of every episode. Even in this case, when we brought on an independent developer who makes Xbox games, we constantly referred back to Nintendo games. "Did you work at Geist?" "What are some of the Nintendo games that influence your games?" "Have you considered making WiiWare games?" "What makes exploration in Metroid games fun and rewarding?" "How do you design an upgrade like the Screw Attack?" ...and so on.

Find another podcast with 200+ episodes and more Nintendo content, on average, than our show. Go on, I want to see what you come up with. Make your case.

We love Nintendo. We talk about Nintendo, primarily and at length and in depth, on every single episode of this show ever produced. But we are not purists. We are not fanboys. We do not live in a vacuum. We know that Nintendo games are and should be influenced by what's happening in the entire gaming world, just as they continue to influence that world.

This is a Nintendo podcast for grown-ups. If you can't handle that perspective, find something that caters exactly to what you want. This is the Internet, after all.

[KDR_11k]

Yup. Anyone who disagrees, get out! That's what America
was founded on. Don't know where ur from but
we charish other peoples right to complain.

America was founded on the principle that private people can tell others to **** off.