Topic: Nintendo 3DS Takes Piracy Prevention 'A Step Further'

[UncleBob]

If I had illegally downloaded what I thought was Wolfenstein, tried to run it and, instead, it formatted my hard drive, no I wouldn't blame IBM.  Because that would be stupid.

Of course it would; I'm not arguing with you there.  But what you proposed is if somebody ran legitimate (by iD Software), but not IBM-approved Wolfenstein Shareware, and it instead triggered the system to format the hard drive.  Big difference.

Not at all.  Because illegally downloaded ROMs are in no way "legitimate".

[MegaByte]

Who said anything about illegally downloaded ROMs?

[UncleBob]

We're talking about piracy on the DS - thus it is logical to assume that a large component of that would be illegally downloaded ROMs.

[MegaByte]

We were talking about eFuse in relation to the Droid X -- the Android platform was practically founded on the ability to modify and run software as  you see fit.  Don't conflate the issue.  There are legal and illegal uses.  I was specifically giving examples falling under the former and you keep trying to twist it into the latter.  Even if a large component is illegal, that doesn't give the right to intentionally damage property.  See again car analogy.

[UncleBob]

While this part doesn't seem to apply to the DroidX, I'd be interested in hearing something like this for the 3DS or future home systems

I could see why that part might have confused you.  I did actually mention the DroidX.  In the part where I said it didn't apply to the DroidX.  Then went on to talk about how I'd like to see something like this on the 3DS.  In a thread about piracy on the 3DS.  Then posted more about Nintendo (who makes the 3DS and not the DroidX) and used various examples involving Nintendo software and the current generation of the DS.

To clarify, the only reason I brought the DroidX into the thread about piracy on the DS is because this product and the hub-bub surrounding it is what made me aware that such a technology could be made available in consumer-level devices.

[MegaByte]

Actually, it was the latter part of that post that seems to be confusing people, so let me get it straight.  Are you or are you not advocating the ability for Nintendo to have a system trigger a brick on any and all software it deems illegitimate?

[UncleBob]

I am not.

I'm advocating for Nintendo to include a system trigger the bricks the system if the exact code is ran telling it to brick the system.

[MegaByte]

Okay, then please redirect many of my previous arguments to TJ Spyke instead

As for the trigger, how would that be determined?  Or are you saying it wouldn't be determined and it would essentially only be there for malware?  In that case, it would be fairly superfluous since there has already been software for DS and Wii that would brick the system even without eFuses.

[UncleBob]

Now the part that people won't like.

I foresee, somehow, some way - some ROMs being leaked onto the internet that include the trigger.  It wouldn't go off right away - perhaps after loading the illegally-gotten ROM 10 times or something.

These ROMs would look to be actual (illegal) copies of high-profile 3DS titles.  Like, say, a month before New Super Mario Bros. 3DS comes out, there's suddenly this awesome ROM of it in the various ROM-getting places.  This particular ROM (where'd it come from?  who knows... *wink, wink*) would be the full game.  In this case, I'd program it so that it wouldn't trigger until the system's date is set after the launch of the game *and* the ROM has been loaded, say, 10 times.  That way, plenty of pirates have gotten the game and they've all had the chance to legally purchase it.

[UncleBob]

And, instead of bricking the system, it locks out the power button, turns the volume up all the way, disables the volume control and plays this video non-stop until the battery dies.  If you recharge your DS and turn it on again, it simply does all this over and over again.

I'd probably buy a second system just to do this to it.

[MegaByte]

The problem there is that if it ever got traced back to Nintendo, they'd be in a world of hurt.  One, distributing their ROM in that matter would not be good from a copyright standpoint.  And two, the damage caused.  Some music companies (or their proxies) have tried similar approaches.

[Deguello]

UncleBob believes the best defense is a good offense.

[UncleBob]

The problem there is that if it ever got traced back to Nintendo, they'd be in a world of hurt.  One, distributing their ROM in that matter would not be good from a copyright standpoint.  And two, the damage caused.  Some music companies (or their proxies) have tried similar approaches.

If it traced back to Nintendo.  Of course, it'd be interesting if the ROM was distributed with instructions that said it was copyrighted Nintendo, for internal use only, do not distribute and do not play on regular 3DS units.

UncleBob believes the best defense is a good offense.

And that's the truth.

[oohhboy]

None of this UncleBob help fight counterfeiters. They would have the means and ability to identify and strip out any such code.

The delay in action and count down would mean that your average consumer wouldn't make the connection when their machine died. They would think

1) It was his fault.
2) Nintendo makes shitty hardware.
3) Maybe it was their friend or families fault.

After 1) and 3) they are going to rationalise that it is 2). Instead of a message saying don't pirate games, go kick your friends arse for give you one or the seller for selling one, it will all look like a hardware failure.

Once again none of this asks what happens with the false positives.

Bloody hell UncleBob, you are acting like some back country sheriff that has received some federal funding and access to the arsenal of national guard surplus. You got the gear and just itching to use it because you can. "Lets go bust down the very next house we can get a warrent on".

[UncleBob]

None of this UncleBob help fight counterfeiters. They would have the means and ability to identify and strip out any such code.

You know, I'm sure counterfeiters do make a dent in sales and profits - but, at least, there's a hard trail to track these people down.

You don't have that with downloadable ROMs online.  There's scarcely any kind of traceable trail to follow up on.  Between the people uploading and the people downloading, you simply can't go after every person with a Guy Fawkes mask on.

After 1) and 3) they are going to rationalise that it is 2). Instead of a message saying don't pirate games, go kick your friends arse for give you one or the seller for selling one, it will all look like a hardware failure.

I would assume, instead of just bricking the system completely, the hardware would give a general error code.  While I was joking about my "You are a pirate" idea above (but seriously, I would lol so hard if Nintendo actually had the balls to implement something like that), I would expect something like "This device has experienced an irrecoverable error.  Please contact Nintendo customer support for assistance."  At which point, you can have a little chat with Nintendo about what you were doing when the system failed.

Once again none of this asks what happens with the false positives.

On the off-chance that, somehow, this "KILL" code managed to get into a legitimate game?  You know, I would just have to trust that Nintendo's Q&A would check for this before authorizing the carts.  As MegaByte said - there's software out there now that will brick your Wii... yet none of it has managed to make it to the market.  But, if it did, then, again, I trust Nintendo to honor repairs and replacements.

Bloody hell UncleBob, you are acting like some back country sheriff that has received some federal funding and access to the arsenal of national guard surplus. You got the gear and just itching to use it because you can. "Lets go bust down the very next house we can get a warrent on".

Maybe I'm just tired of companies like Nintendo being told to suck it up because some people feel that the law doesn't apply to them.  People who cry out "but that's not fair!" at the thought of Nintendo doing something like this all while unfairly and illegally downloading as much as they want.  It's bullcrap.  If pirates get to resort to illegal tactics, then they shouldn't get to complain when Nintendo punches back.

[NWR_insanolord]

There are perfectly legitimate reasons people use homebrew; it's not all piracy. I haven't been able to update my Wii to the newest firmware because the imported games I own would be rendered completely unplayable by the loss of homebrew functionality. Because of this, Nintendo is losing money: there are several VC and WiiWare games I'd buy if I had access to the Shop Channel.

[Deguello]

There are perfectly legitimate reasons people use homebrew; it's not all piracy. I choose not to to update my Wii to the newest firmware because the imported games I own would be rendered completely unplayable by the loss of homebrew functionality. Because of this, Nintendo is losing money: there are several VC and WiiWare games I'd buy if I had access to the Shop Channel.

Let's be honest here.

Now let's put ourselves in Nintendo's shoes.  You have to find a way to combat piracy.  By being soft you lose potential sales to software pirates, by being hard you lose potential sales of homebrew users who have access to piracy materials but only deigned to put Linux on the Wii or something.

If you were Nintendo, which would you surmise is the greater number of lost sales?

Now I'll concede the point that not all software pirates are "lost sales."  Some are just greasy pirates forever.  But in the true interest of being honest about such things, we have to be honest that "homebrew" is basically piracy tools with a very minuscule number of benign applications, which usually get trumped up when Nintendo needs to get serious about piracy.  Don't kid yourselves.

Now picture you are Nintendo thinking about the next DS model and Kotaku just posted a step-by-step guide to copying DS games and playing them with a flash cart (which they did.)  What's the solution?

[BeautifulShy]

Insanolord there is a solution.Get another Wii.Make that one for ligitimate use.While your current Wii can be used for homebrew.

[UncleBob]

There are perfectly legitimate reasons people use homebrew; it's not all piracy. I haven't been able to update my Wii to the newest firmware because the imported games I own would be rendered completely unplayable by the loss of homebrew functionality. Because of this, Nintendo is losing money: there are several VC and WiiWare games I'd buy if I had access to the Shop Channel.

Like I said before, if it were just honest homebrew, I don't think Nintendo would really care that much (if at all).

[BlackNMild2k1]

There are perfectly legitimate reasons people use homebrew; it's not all piracy. I haven't been able to update my Wii to the newest firmware because the imported games I own would be rendered completely unplayable by the loss of homebrew functionality. Because of this, Nintendo is losing money: there are several VC and WiiWare games I'd buy if I had access to the Shop Channel.

Like I said before, if it were just honest homebrew, I don't think Nintendo would really care that much (if at all).

But there are always a few that will ruin it for the whole.

[Mop it up]

Like I said before, if it were just honest homebrew, I don't think Nintendo would really care that much (if at all).

Does Nintendo still care about people using/creating unlicenced software for their systems? I don't think they were none too happy about Tengen's unlicenced NES games, and I believe they even attempted to stop them in court. But I don't know for sure.

[UncleBob]

Like I said before, if it were just honest homebrew, I don't think Nintendo would really care that much (if at all).

Does Nintendo still care about people using/creating unlicenced software for their systems? I don't think they were none too happy about Tengen's unlicenced NES games, and I believe they even attempted to stop them in court. But I don't know for sure.

I think releasing unlicensed commercial software is a whole different category than homebrew.

Now picture you are Nintendo thinking about the next DS model and Kotaku just posted a step-by-step guide to copying DS games and playing them with a flash cart (which they did.)  What's the solution?

To be fair to Kotaku, it's not like they're the only video game news and information site out there encouraging piracy through their postings and such...

[TJ Spyke]

They crushed Tengen in court, Tengen basically killed any chance they had by lying to the US Patent and Trademark Office website and illegally getting a copy of the NES10 patent. The lawsuit was basically Tengen suing Nintendo because they had a security chip on non-Japanese NES systems called NES10 (they developed the chip after they already released it in Japan) that prevented unlicensed games from playing. They then lied to the USPTO to illegally get a copy of the patent (they would be able to get it if they were being sued, so they lied and said they were) so they could get around it. Nintendo wound up winning the lawsuit after they showed the judge that you could get around the security chip and play unlicensed software on it. The ironic thing is that a different branch of Atari Games (parent company of Tengen, they formed Tengen because they were not allowed to use the "Atari" name for game systems due to Jack Tramiels Atari, Inc. owning the rights) were close to finding their own way around the chip until that paralegal screwed up and got the illegal paperwork from the USPTO.

The only time I really recall Nintendo not going after companies making unlicensed games was Wisdom Tree. Wisdom Tree made religious based games for NES, SNES, and GB and only sold their games in places like religious book stores. Nintendo figures it wasn't worth the bad PR to sue a company that made religious games that most people didn't even know existed.

[Stogi]

If I can "jailbreak" my 3DS with no consequences, then I will totally do it. The only thing better than having the ability to have all your old school games on one portable system, is being able to watch compressed 3D bluray on it!

SUCK IT SONY! (Or at least be prepared to suck it)