Topic: Wrestling discussion

[BeautifulShy]

I am a fan of the Mid 90's- to 2005 era of wrestling.

I like TNA since most of my favorite wrestlers are on there.

Favorite wrestlers?

Female Wrestler:Lita
Cruiserweight:Rey Mesterio Jr.
Technical:Bret "The Hitman" Hart
WCW:Sting
90's WWE: Stone Cold Steve Austin
Today WWE:John Cena
TNA:Kurt Angle

[BranDonk Kong]

Back to UFC for a minute - you do understand that Dana White runs the company right? He creates the matches - the champion defends his title when he is told to do so. This isn't a bunch of freelance fighters picking and choosing who and when they fight (for the most part) - they are all under contract.

[TJ Spyke]

Dana White is a douche, that is no secret. He especially makes that fact clear when a big name fighter signs with a rival company (or his threat that any fighter who signed up to be in EA Sports MMA would never get a UFC contract). The fighters can ask to fight more often, and White does deserve some of the blame.

[Ian Sane]

ooh the current product...no. I used to be a big fan of wrestling, but it pretty much died for me around the time WWF bought WCW.

Yep, that's pretty much the moment for me, too.  Though I find that stuff from 1998 onwards is hard to watch today.  That's when things really went all "sports entertainment" and that doesn't seem to hold up very well in later viewings.
 
Though I don't watch current wrestling anymore I do buy a lot of the DVDs with historical matches on them.  My brother and I started a project where I listed all the matches I have on DVD in a spreadsheet and we are watching them in chronological order.  The cut-off is Wrestlemania XVII as that was shortly after the WCW purchase and as it paid off the angles going at the time it seemed like a fitting conclusion.  It's been a lot of fun.  The only issue is the WWE puts an unskipable "don't try this at home" warning at the beginning of every disc and since I pretty much have to switch a disc after every match we have to watch this a million times.  It's so fucking annoying.
 
I've noticed that even though I was a big WWF fan at the time there are certain things about the league that always annoyed me.  They're very noticable if you're constantly switching between different leagues like we are.  But then I notice things I don't care for about WCW and ECW as well.  All the different leagues had their pros and cons.  Being able to watch ALL of them was very important as it provided balance.
 
I don't think it's a coincidence that once the WWF ceased to have competition that I started to dislike it because suddenly THIS style of wrestling is IT.  If I don't like what I'm seeing I've got nothing else.  That sucks.  For the WWF what I didn't like was that it seemed ashamed of being pro wrestling.  They didn't acknowledge the history of the other leagues.  Wrestlers would come from one league and be treated like rookies in the WWF.  "Wrestlers" are "superstars".  There was an obvious attempt to call their product "entertainment" as opposed to a sport.  Now we all know wrestling is fake but like any good fiction it has to act like it's legitimate.  You can't talk about sports entertainment ON THE SHOW.  That's like an actor breaking the fourth wall in a TV show.
 
What I liked about them is the production values were by far the most professional and they were very good at delivering on their storylines with usually the fan favourite winning in the end.  You could tell that there was some sort of overall plan and vision to the angles.  WCW usually had the problem that there was no central leadership so all sorts of inconsistent and incoherent **** would go down.  Plus WCW had an inferiority complex.  They wanted to be the WWF and when they tried to copy the more sports entertainment elements of it they usually came up with something really stupid and goofy (Dungeon of Doom).  WCW had better in-ring wrestling though and treated their sport with more prestige.  ECW's greatest flaw was that its chaotic nature was rather one-dimensional but otherwise it was flawless.
 
I tried to watch TNA when it got it's own weekly show but it was too similar to the WWE for me to like it.  It seems like it's the WCW inferiority complex taken to the extreme.  TNA comes across as a bad rip-off of WWE, which I already disliked to begin with.
 
My brother and I have, probably like any fan, discussed what we would make if we had our own wrestling league with a TV show and everything.  We figured the key thing would be to act like this is a totally REAL sport which I think both leagues fail at.  We've all seen a match where the title switches hands when someone runs in and hits the guy with a chair behind the refs back.  Does that make ANY sense at all?  Can you imagine watching the Superbowl and some guy just pops in and interferes with the game and the refs miss it but it's on camera and the NFL just lets this go?  It wouldn't happen.  It's incoherent.  Or angles where the heels actually do something that would land them in jail?  Or floating cameras that just happen to exist backstage when this is supposed to be a live sporting event?  Or evil authority figures that are openly corrupt?  Or guys who just waltz down to the ring and get on a mic and start yakking and the league just allows it?  That's all sports entertainment stuff that makes NO FUCKING SENSE and that's really why I stopped watching.  Good fiction has to be coherent.
 
And we would have a name that sounded like some sort of athletic sports league.  Total Nonstop Action doesn't mean anything.  World Wrestling Entertainment reveals the fakeness in the name.  They really should have gone back to the old WWWF (World Wide Wrestling Federation) name from the 60's and 70's since it sounds legitimate.  I think something like the National Wrestling League (NWL) would work well for a name.

[Shaymin]

Sounds like you'd like Ring of Honor. They have their moments of SPORTS-ENTERTAINMENT~ but other than that it's presented as an athletic competition.

Their TV show is on Mondays before Raw if by chance you get HDNet.

[TJ Spyke]

Too bad HDNet is only in like 1% of US homes.

I find most Ring of Honor stuff boring. ROH is like 1970s wrestling: very little storylines (at least on their TV show, which is taped 3 months ahead of time and results in tonights episode having been taped back in February), mediocre production values, and most matches being way too long. Some of the ROH matches were pretty good though, like most matches with Bryan Danielson (now competing in WWE as Daniel Bryan) and CM Punk.

[ThePerm]

I can say for sure when I started watching wrestling. I was talking to my friend on a phone and he told me to turn it to channel 18 which was USA, now it must have been right after Shawn Michaels got injured and was out for years, because he was out of the picture. The focus on the show was definitely Stone Cold and his feud with McMahon, im thinking (according to wikipedia) it was immediately after Austin won the title. Now, my only exposure to wrestling before that was WCW vs NWO world tour, flipping through the channels in the 80s, and whatever extra exposure Hogan and Macho Man, and the Hitman got outside the ring. After that day though I had become an instant fan. I still was confused though. I started watching WCW because I wasn't quite aware of the difference between federations. Soon after though I became one of those walking wrestling stat tanks, I knew all the wrestlers their height, weight, etc. Unlike Ian though, i find 98' to early 2000s great to watch. Being a wrestling fan led me to all my current best friends, because wiithout similar interests they wouldnt be my friends at all.

Pretty soon after I was invited to friends pay-per views, we would dress up like wreslters and have backyard fights on mattresses, and we would break tables and hit each other with chairs fun stuff. I remember dressing up like Scott Steiner, I find it kinda funny because we used to have to paint our faces to have beards.

WWF had better presentation and better announcers and had the Titan-tron. I liked Bobby Heenan, but Tony Shiavone was really the only thing that was wrong with WCW. He seriously dragged them down. You could not be edgy with that guys voice as your announcer. He’s a good announcer though, but he seems a better fit for some other sport. Even though it’s a contradiction to say having some classiness is bad for wrestling..who doesn’t like Mean Gene Okerland?

WCW had better matches. I always liked watching the Luche-Libre fighters or the Japanese guys fight for the Cruiserweight title. Its weird seing the rookies of the era are the old timers of today. Its like watching Raging Bull




Obvious greats were Austin and the Rock, but I really liked the stable wars over in WCW. The Wolf pack vs now. Hogan was actually phenomenal as a villain. I could go on forever.

Also, the nice thing about where I lived was that WCW and WWF didn't actually compete for a Time Slot, My WCW was an east coast feed, and my WWF was a west coast feed. So instead of being on at the same time, they were on one after the other.

[Ian Sane]

Also, the nice thing about where I lived was that WCW and WWF didn't actually compete for a Time Slot, My WCW was an east coast feed, and my WWF was a west coast feed. So instead of being on at the same time, they were on one after the other.

Here in Canada TSN showed both Raw and Nitro.  Raw was shown at it's normal time slot on Monday while Nitro was on on Wednesday (and later switched to Tuesday).  In high school we would all talk about both WWF and WCW as everyone got to watch both shows and there wasn't any clear preference to one or the other.  If you were a wrestling fan you watched both.
 
I have fond memories of 2000 as I could literally watch wrestling every day if I wanted to.  Monday: WWF Raw, Tuesday: WCW Nitro, Wednesday: WCW Thunder, Thursday: WWF Smackdown, Friday: ECW on TNN, Saturday: WCW Saturday Night, Sunday: WWF Heat.
 
I liked the 1998 to early 2000s stuff at the time.  It just doesn't hold up for me as well now.  It seemed very catered to my teenage tastes.  It's like how I don't think Mortal Kombat is cool anymore but when it was current I was the right age to find it, without irony, 100% awesome.

[ThePerm]

i remember this being a dream match, but never actually watching it till today. I didn't even know this was ever a card!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-u3QLDRCk4

it was a boring match, but perfect ending.

[BeautifulShy]

Yeah the Goldberg vs Lesner match wasn't that exciting.

I liked Wrestlemania 10. Bret "The Hitman" Hart vs Owen "The Rocket" Hart.

Good technical match up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HbZL56QEgcE

[ThePerm]

my favorite match ever was Benoit vs Jericho Tribute to Owen Hart match

[Shaymin]

Bret/Owen was the first match of the first show I ever sat down and watched in full. It's largely the reason I still care about wrestling today.

[GoldenPhoenix]

i remember this being a dream match, but never actually watching it till today. I didn't even know this was ever a card!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-u3QLDRCk4

it was a boring match, but perfect ending.

That match was horrendous, neither wrestler had their heart in it, they both were leaving WWE so they put on a lazy match. One of the worse in Wrestlemania history.

[BranDonk Kong]

I know 2 people that have met the Rock...one is the chef at my restaurant, he used to live in Miami and actually cooked for him all the time. D-Von Dudley (or brother D-Von, now) lives about 15 minutes away from me in my Grandparents' neighborhood, I have a photo with him (somewhere) and an autographed menu from my restaurant, I've actually met him on several occasions. He used to have a smoothie/wrap shop nearby but it closed down recently. Jamie Noble lives nearby too, my brother used to see him at the gym, I saw him at Duffy's Sport Bar one time. Kevin Nash lives pretty close too, but I've never seen him. A lot of TNA guys live around here.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I know 2 people that have met the Rock...one is the chef at my restaurant, he used to live in Miami and actually cooked for him all the time. D-Von Dudley (or brother D-Von, now) lives about 15 minutes away from me in my Grandparents' neighborhood, I have a photo with him (somewhere) and an autographed menu from my restaurant, I've actually met him on several occasions. He used to have a smoothie/wrap shop nearby but it closed down recently. Jamie Noble lives nearby too, my brother used to see him at the gym, I saw him at Duffy's Sport Bar one time. Kevin Nash lives pretty close too, but I've never seen him. A lot of TNA guys live around here.

Oh cool, are they pretty nice guys?

[BranDonk Kong]

I didn't actually meet Jamie Noble, but yeah, D-Von is a cool guy. I see him at Publix sometimes, he's eaten at my restaurant a couple times (so have Janet Reno and Martin Short). he first time he ate there was when I got the signed menu, he also gave me his WWE RAW hat. The second or third time he ate there was shortly after Team 3-D joined TNA - I sent a note said "Kick Team Canada's ass at the PPV" with the waiter when he took the bill, and D-Von wrote back on it "Oh my brotha testify!" - it was pretty awesome. He took a picture with the chef, a busboy, and myself. I threw the 3D sign up...I wish I knew where it was. Also, he's absolutely massive.

[TJ Spyke]

I have heard others also say that Devon is really nice in person. Bubba Ray Dudley/Brother Ray is another story, I have heard a lot of people say that he was an ass in person and obviously hated interacting with fans.

I don't think any wrestlers currently live in my area, but a couple were from here originally. Gorilla Monsoon went to high school in my city (the school is about a mile from my house), Chyna is also from here.

[Ian Sane]

Last year they had wrestling at the local fair.  The fairgrounds are within walking distance from my house so my brothers and I decided to walk over when we found out the Honky Tonk Man was going to be in the main event.  Since the Honky Tonk Man is in his 50's the main event was probably the worst match of the show.  But I really enjoyed myself and was impressed with the indy guys.  All those guys were short though and were not in very good shape.  I realized that I actually looked more like a wrestler than most of them.  One guy was about the same height as me sitting down!  It's a shame because some of these guys clearly had the charisma and the talent to be a star but did not look like wrestlers.

Before the show my brother got to meet the Honky Tonk Man.  And by "meet" I mean "got snubbed by".  We were early and just popped our heads into the hall to have a look at the ring (being early was worth it as we sat in the front row).  Out of nowhere Honky just walks right by my brother.  Honky looked like a small pussy compared to the other WWF wrestlers back in the day but he is HUGE.  It makes me wonder how big someone like Hulk Hogan looks in person.  Anyway my brother makes eye contact and asks "how's it going?"  Honky just says "uh" and then looks away.  We thought that was so funny.  He just had this "I can't believe I'm in Abbotsford wrestling at the fucking Agrifair when I used to wrestler in Madison Square Garden" look on his face.

I hope they have wrestling at the fair again this year.  One thing I really liked is that it showed that clearly I still enjoy wrestling - it just depends on the format and presentation.  The fair show treated everything like it was completely legitimate and was almost all clean finishes and good length matches with actual WRESTLING instead of just punch-kick ****.  The faces gave everyone five and smiled all the time while the heels acted like huge dicks and got in shouting matches with people in the audience.  It was everything I wanted out of a wrestling show.

[BranDonk Kong]

There was a wrestling show a couple years ago that had a bunch of guys from TNA. It was funny because Kip James and Ron "The Truth" Killings came out to the D-X music, and Kip James was announced as "Bad Ass" Billy Gunn. Matt Bentley got a bunch of HBK chants (Shawn Michaels is his uncle) too. Anyway, long story short, I touched Scott Steiner's shoulder and it's literally like touching a sweaty brick wall. I forget who actually ran the promotion, some of the local guys were pretty good, and the promoter is friend's with Jeff Jarret, so that's how he got all the TNA guys.

Also one time Shawn Michaels was doing an autograph section at a Wal-Mart around here (I have no idea why). I high-fived him and my friend tried to get his Mountain Dew bottle, but some girl snatched it first. We then followed his limo for a little while with my car, and I rolled down the windows and just blasted the D-X music (yes, I used to buy the WWE CDs) over and over.

[TJ Spyke]

Actually, Shawn Michaels is his cousin (not uncle).

Indy promotions frequently ignore copyright laws, this is why you will often hear WWE music or other licensed music at indy shows. They don't get permission, they just do anyways (although if music companies that own these songs decided to sue, most of the promotions would go bankrupt as most indy promotions barely make a profit).

It is odd touching a wrestler when they are in the middle of a match. When I went to "In Your House: 'Takers Revenge" in April 1997, I got to pat Bret Hart's arm when Steve Austin threw him into crowd. I was super happy because he was my favorite wrestler at the time (he still is one of my all-time favorites), and he was all sweaty and bigger than I thought he would be. Another reason I was happy to be at the show was because I didn't have cable at the time and there was no wrestling on basic TV (and the Internet didn't have any real wrestling content since most people didn't go online at that time), so that was the first time I got to see wrestling in over 6 months. I didn't even know what the European Championship was because it had been created only two months earlier.

[Toruresu]

So TNA is back to Thursdays. I knew they were far too small/young yet to go head to head with WWE Raw.

Good news is, Kurt Angle returns this Thursday according to his Facebook.

[ThePerm]

I have to say that it is really unusual seeing wrestlers in person. When they came to Yuma you could get really close, and paying extra for seats really didn't matter because there was no way for them to enforce them. Wrestlers seem much smaller in person except like Big Show and Kane who ware still ginormous. When Chris Benoit was leaving he slapped the hands of the fans on the exit and I was one of those fans.

[TJ Spyke]

So TNA is back to Thursdays. I knew they were far too small/young yet to go head to head with WWE Raw.

Good news is, Kurt Angle returns this Thursday according to his Facebook.

I think the final straw to Spike was when the show got a 0.5 rating (the lowest rating that the show ever got in the 5 years its been on Raw). Even WWE A.M. Raw, which is a 1 hour recap of Raw and airs at 2AM on Sunday, averages a 0.8 rating. Part of TNA's problems is that they seem to just throw everything at the wall to seem what sticks. Just a few weeks ago they had Eric Young feuding with The Band, now he allies with them. They had Sting turn heel and then wait 3 MONTHS for him to explain why (which he never clearly did, and made some nonsense response about something that happened 10 years ago). They have Samoa Joe get kidnapped by masked men for several weeks and return with no explanation. They have Abyss get run over and no one calls the cops (even though they say they know who did it).

Wrestling requires the ability to suspend your disbelief, but TNA basically wants you to turn off your brain completely. I like TNA, but they have a lot of problems (not just a 57 year-old man who has severe pain just getting out of bed being able to knock out the top heels in the company with a single punch).

[Ian Sane]

Part of TNA's problems is that they seem to just throw everything at the wall to seem what sticks. Just a few weeks ago they had Eric Young feuding with The Band, now he allies with them. They had Sting turn heel and then wait 3 MONTHS for him to explain why (which he never clearly did, and made some nonsense response about something that happened 10 years ago). They have Samoa Joe get kidnapped by masked men for several weeks and return with no explanation. They have Abyss get run over and no one calls the cops (even though they say they know who did it).

This is called incoherent storytelling.  You do this is ANY form of fiction and people are going to lose interest.  This is why I never gave TNA much of a chance.  I watched like two episodes and realized that it made no sense at all.  Making sense is EASY.  If you can't do it you deserve to fail.

[TJ Spyke]

TNA doesn't seem to realize this. The whole Sting thing is based on something that happened in another promotion over 10 years ago, same with the Hogan/Flair feud. Like you mentioned, TNA is making it almost impossible for new viewers to get into the show because they are so inconsistent. They were actually doing a better job before they started bringing in all of these big name stars.

To get away from all of the negativity, I was so happy that Vickie Guerrero was not kept as GM on Raw. She is so annoying and the fans hate her (and not just because she is a heel. She has what is called "go-away heat" or "X-Pac heat", meaning the fans don't like her whether she is a heel or face).