Author Topic: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind  (Read 25749 times)

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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2010, 12:28:42 AM »
If BSOD couldn't do it, nothing will
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2010, 12:51:49 AM »
BSoD was a whole different situation though.

Windows practically came with every computer for free and every software was made with Windows support in mind. You had almost no choice in the matter.

Xbox 360 and the RRoD is an option I chose to avoid even though I was really tempted to buy one many times over the last 3-4 years. I know for sure I won't be an early adopter next cycle either with all the problems they had this time around.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2010, 02:31:31 AM »
Quote
I never said that.  I was simply stating that the "developers that matter" see making games for Wii as riskier than making PC-style games, which is something they're already good at.

The way you phrased it made it sound like Wii games needed a guarantee of sales while PC/360/PS3 development doesn't even though it's true that 3rd parties have made games that so far have failed across all platforms possible.  Then you listed a bunch of Nintendo franchises as if making them was not risky.  I remember the heady days of late 2007, when Wii Fit was not ridiculed and was pre-ordained to have success, and making it was in no way risky for Nintendo.

Quote
Again, I never said Nintendo was "sitting back" when it comes to THEIR OWN own titles.  My point was that they don't need third-parties when it comes right down to it, so they don't give two ****s about catering to them.

Facts not in evidence.  Just because they don't need third parties to be successful doesn't mean they hate third parties.  If anything, considering Nintendo has actually sent resources from their own developers and in more than one instance, actually developed a game for a developer, they actually care a great deal.  They've done plenty, even designing the Wii to be easy to develop for, possibly because it was the number #1 issue for third parties.  Then they get kicked in the face for it when third parties march into the room, drop trou, defecate, and then complain about the smell and ask why everyone's leaving.

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Do you think Nintendo had third-parties in mind when they developed their convoluted Friend Code system?  Bwahahahahaha.  That was Nintendo looking out for Nintendo.  Which is 100% what they should be doing, but don't complain when third parties give them the cold shoulder.

They didn't seem to mind on the DS.  And what if they aren't making a game with online multiplayer?  Third parties also didn't mind the Ps2 having basically zero online capabilities last generation.

Quote
They already have PS3 and 360 dev environments set up, so they can tool around as much as they want.  How much "practice" do they need?

They've been making Wii games for 3 years and still have no idea what they are doing.  Their Natal games will be an absolute disaster if they make them at their current skillsets.  They might need more practice if they want to make decent Natal games, or games for the Sony Arc/Sphere/Whatever.

Quote
Wii is where original IPs go to die, yet everybody continues to kid themselves that it's some huge opportunity just because it has a large userbase (that doesn't play much else other than Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Wii Play, and Mario Kart).

I'm not sure what your point is.  So third parties can make high selling Wii games only if they attach a big name franchise to it?  Why do you list three games in the "Wii ____" series like they are not a new IP?  Why do you suddenly skip over games like Zelda, Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros. (This game has sold 10 million units) when you previously listed them before?  Why this need to make the Wii look like a "Casual McCasual" system, when third party casual games flop by the hundreds, and third parties themselves have said casual games don't sell on the Wii, and retailers stopped ordering them for this specific reason?

And the Wii WAS an opportunity for third parties.  But they screwed it up with their shovelware and spinoff antics.  How can Nintendo possibly be to blame when they let third parties do whatever they wanted and they CHOSE to make bad games?  How is asking third parties very kindly and gently to "please do not piss on the Wii" being negative to them?

How can people possibly defend third parties or blame Nintendo for all this?  Nintendo makes the best games on Wii, they get the best sales and prosper (More than all other developers and publishers combined, regardless of platform.)  Third parties developers mostly make shovelware, ports, or garbage video games, they fail and die.  Isn't this the way we would have it?  Were we all supposed to buy the bad videogames?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 02:44:31 AM by Deguello »
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2010, 05:01:08 AM »
BSoD was a whole different situation though.

Windows practically came with every computer for free and every software was made with Windows support in mind. You had almost no choice in the matter.

Xbox 360 and the RRoD is an option I chose to avoid even though I was really tempted to buy one many times over the last 3-4 years. I know for sure I won't be an early adopter next cycle either with all the problems they had this time around.

I meant, the BSOD didn't stop people from getting a Xbox

"Why would you trust Microsoft with videogames when their OS constantly crashes, they rip off ideas from other companies, and are simply buying their way to monopolization of the living room"

-Halo looks awesome, it has vehicles and LAN-

And thus a new generation of Groundhog Day Hardware was born
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2010, 05:46:13 AM »
Crashing software is one thing, failing hardware another.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2010, 05:58:50 AM »
Crashing software is one thing, failing hardware another.

And Microsoft achieves both--

--oh dear, my comment might come across as negative!
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2010, 06:02:30 AM »
At this hour you should either be asleep or working on the Wall.

Get..go on now
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2010, 09:48:57 AM »
Crashing software is one thing, failing hardware another.

And Microsoft achieves both--

--oh dear, my comment might come across as negative!

Yeah, the point was that just because their software crashes doesn't mean we should have known that their hardware breaks.

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2010, 10:14:30 AM »
Games Suggest Wii Development Lagging Behind

That should be the title of this thread.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2010, 10:48:54 AM »
The only way Microsoft could make a console that doesn't suck is if it came with a vacuum cleaner peripheral.
is your sanity...

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2010, 02:44:26 PM »
But then it would suck for not sucking.

or it would suck for not being a console(or being a console that is also a vacuum) and it would suck as a vacuum for not actually sucking anything up.
it would actually double suck.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 02:46:09 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline D_Average

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2010, 03:39:24 PM »
"Of the mobile developers, almost 75 percent were working on games for iPhone OS.  Less than half of this percentage was working on either a Nintendo DS or Sony PSP game."

Definitely shows that the iPhone is capable of biting at least some chunk out of the ds/psp market.  Should be interesting to see just how many in the heard migrate over to the new source of games, and how many consume both options.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2010, 04:16:32 PM »
Funny that people are defining "the market" based on the production/development side (so prestigious, aren't they) rather than the customers/dollars those developers may (or MAY NOT) attract.

Sounds very prosperous to develop for NOBODY, huh
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 04:18:26 PM by NinGurl69 *huggles »
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2010, 12:04:52 AM »
Facebook is the next killer platform. Farmville doesn't require skill, just time! Perfect!

We need a new genre to reinvigorate the industry. Somebody invent the text adventure.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2010, 03:45:43 AM »
"Of the mobile developers, almost 75 percent were working on games for iPhone OS.  Less than half of this percentage was working on either a Nintendo DS or Sony PSP game."

Definitely shows that the iPhone is capable of biting at least some chunk out of the ds/psp market.  Should be interesting to see just how many in the heard migrate over to the new source of games, and how many consume both options.

Considering how low the barrier of entry to the iPhone is you have to wonder how many of those developers ever worked on a console.

Facebook is the next killer platform. Farmville doesn't require skill, just time! Perfect!

We need a new genre to reinvigorate the industry. Somebody invent the text adventure.

You mean the TXT adventure.

Offline Peachylala

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2010, 11:19:38 AM »
Homestar Runner beat them ages ago with TXT adventures.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2010, 12:47:30 PM »
Considering how much games love advertising themselves as the first to do X (notable cases of X: Mixing FPS and RTS, shooting with full 3D movement) lately that wouldn't stop 'em.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2010, 01:31:23 PM »
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They've done plenty, even designing the Wii to be easy to develop for, possibly because it was the number #1 issue for third parties.

This gets brought up a lot and I remember Nintendo emphasizing this as a key point about the Wii hardware so it makes sense it does.  But I really question how easy the Wii is to develop for.  The Wii is an extension of the Gamecube hardware.  Sounds good in theory except the Gamecube wasn't a very successful console.  The idea is to provide something similar to what developers are already familiar with but since the Cube didn't have that great of third party support many developers would not have been familiar with it.  This removes the ease of development.  It might as well be something brand new for a dev that just made PS2 games last gen.
 
They also made the Wii vastly different than the other consoles.  So there is no familiarity for most devs.  Anyone currently working on one of the HD platforms can probably learn the other fairly easily, plus the connection with PC development.  The Wii being completely unique requires specific skillsets to work with.  It doesn't matter how easy it is to use, you still have to learn how to use it and learning it is only useful for making Wii games and NOTHING else.
 
Who it's easy for is Nintendo themselves as they would have familiarity with the Gamecube hardware and are a Wii-exclusive developer.  The criticism is that Nintendo only thinks of themselves, maybe not necessarily for selfish reasons, but just that they don't think beyond their own little world.  The Wii is only developer friendly if you focused on making Gamecube games last gen and make Wii exclusives this gen.  It's the design of a company infamous for having tunnel vision.
 
I think that third parties are mostly to blame but Nintendo made no real effort to be
accommodating.  If the hardware wasn't so different and so specific to a Nintendo-only mindset this problem wouldn't exist.  No one would refuse to release their big PS360 games on the market leading Wii if the conversion was simple.
 
Hell Nintendo only introduced the nunchuk due to feedback from Retro.  They were honestly thinking of just using the remote.  How could that be seen as even remotely developer friendly?  That would have been typical tunnel vision Nintendo, who is so oblivious that they were originally going to go with something one of their own devs would have found inflexible (and an American dev no less, so it's no surprise NCL would have not taken their needs into account ahead of time).

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2010, 01:49:58 PM »
I understand your point, but regardless of whether or not the 3rd parties used it a lot, the GC was made with ease of use in mind. The PS2 was purposely difficult to develop for as was the PS3, but the GC and the Xbox was made so that you get good results with minimal efforts and great results with real effort.

Unfortunately, most 3rd party developers are still giving the Wii "GC level" efforts and not trying to push the Wii to see what the Wii is capable of.

Offline Stogi

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2010, 02:43:10 PM »
There is plenty of software that the 3rd parties can license that'll make developing for the Wii even easier.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2010, 04:15:57 PM »
But that would mean putting in extra effort to find those tools, but if it means M&Ms Kart Racer would be easier to make, it could be beneficial.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2010, 05:00:40 PM »
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But that would mean putting in extra effort to find those tools, but if it means M&Ms Kart Racer would be easier to make, it could be beneficial.

I know this is sort of a joke answer but it brings up a point I want to make. :)
 
Yeah the hardware is easy to use if I take the time to put in the extra effort.  But how is asking someone to put in effort user-friendly?  "If you'll just take the time to learn this..." sounds like an excuse.  We get on third parties for making excuses.  Nintendo expecting third parties to have an easy time IF they're willing to do such-and-such isn't TRULY being user-friendly.  It comes across more like Nintendo making it easy for themselves and then telling YOU to bridge the gap and make the effort and the whole "it's easy if you try" stuff sounds like a lame excuse for not wanting to compromise.
 
I play guitar.  Let's say for the purpose of this example that playing piano is considered easier to play than guitar.  Nintendo, Sony and MS want me to play songs for them.  Nintendo insists I play piano and the others let me play guitar.  Nintendo uses the excuse that it's not that hard for me to learn piano and it's an easier instrument to play anyway.  I don't care.  Yes guitar is harder but *I* already know how to play it so for me learning the "easier" instrument is actually harder than just playing the "difficult" instrument I already know.
 
Cube and PS2 owners made fun of the Xbox being a PC-in-a-box but that was in retrospect a REALLY smart move on Microsoft's part because no architecture is more familiar to developers.  Yes it's a sucky, inefficient design and the Cube/Wii design is probably superior.  But developers use it and know it.  I work as a programmer and we've had clients ask us why we don't code in such-and-such because it's better and more flexible.  The reason is that all our devs already know the "inferior" tools we're already using.  We know the workarounds and it still suits our purpose so it wouldn't be financially worthwhile to switch to something "better" and have to retrain the entire staff.  If you're a videogame dev and you honestly think you could make money sticking with what you're familiar with, even if the Wii is the market leader, why would you?  If you feel you can make money (and a whole bunch of them are probably making the wrong assumption there) why would you risk switching?
 
Nintendo sabotaged the Wii's third party support potential by being too different.  They turned it into a either-or situation and the format supported by THREE other platforms won out.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2010, 05:11:14 PM »
Once again, I understand your point. But it doesn't change the fact that the Wii/GC was designed to be easy to program for.

A more correct analogy for your situation would be that you know how to play the piano(keyboard), but you LOVE to play your guitar. Developing of the PS360 allows you to shred on your guitar for hours and hours a day and get paid for it. Developing for Wii is like trying to play the same song on the piano. It's not as fun for you and it doesn't sound nearly as good.

Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2010, 05:33:18 PM »
"If you're a videogame dev and you honestly think you could make money sticking with what you're familiar with, even if the Wii is the market leader, why would you?"

What developer was familiar with making money off Grey's Anatomy totally spies ice cream pajama party games?

I think I know who the real inferior tools are
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Report Suggests Wii Development Lagging Behind
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2010, 06:31:32 PM »
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Once again, I understand your point. But it doesn't change the fact that the Wii/GC was designed to be easy to program for.

But there's always a learning curve.  I'm a programmer.  I know that you can't just be given something different and just know it.  Regardless of how "easy" it may be to use until you take the time and effort to learn it any intentional "easy design" doesn't matter.
 
This isn't like making a web page here.  This is making a game (I would have no clue where to even start) and we're talking about MOTION CONTROLS which for all intents and purposes didn't even EXIST until the Wii came about.  We don't know what "easy" means in this case.
 
One point that used to get brought up a lot is that most third parties bet on the wrong horse.  They assumed the Wii would be a flop so the picked the other format assuming it would win out.  The idea was that in time those developers would move to the Wii.  It hasn't happened and I think the transition from one format to the other is too intimidating.  Launch games are usually not so hot as the devs don't have the experience with the new hardware yet.  Over time however they're able to get into the groove and release classic games.
 
You're a third party.  You bet on the wrong horse.  Now the Wii's on top and you want in on the Wii but your top guys know the other format, having already made games for it, and they're now at the point where they can make GOTY candidates for the other consoles.  If you put the top guys on the Wii then they're starting over and pretty much releasing launch titles again.  Keep them on the HD path and they can bust out something amazing that will, in theory, be a huge hit, while no matter what your first Wii title is it's going to be an average effort as you need to get the kinks out.  So you assign the junior guys to work on the first Wii titles and you want something out right away so you rush it.  So your first titles don't sell because they're not that great.  Meanwhile Team A is still working on their HD game, since they take time, so Team B continues to work on the Wii, but they're Team B for a reason so they don't release that good of stuff.
 
Now your HD game has been released and let's say it did well.  But you're a few years in and your top guys don't know the Wii, but it's too late to get away with glorified launch titles anymore.  The only team that knows the Wii is the inferior Team B.  Because you bet on the wrong horse you can't just jump right in and release a classic Wii game.  So what do you do?  Maybe you just focus on the HD consoles since your top guys know that format and can release games on it with potential for success.  Meanwhile the Wii userbase already thinks less of you because of your previous Team B games so it's an uphill battle to win them over anyway.  And you won't be able to win them over right away because your top guys don't know the console and by the time they do the Wii might be on it's way out anyway.  There was a window of time to get your top guys familiar with the Wii and it's passed because you bet on the wrong horse.  And EVERYONE bet on the wrong horse.  Your competition is Nintendo and they had a huge head start.
 
Though one advantage with this scenario is next gen Nintendo will be the favourite so maybe then the third parties will go for them from the get-go.