Topic: Jimmy Page and Jack White Dismiss Music Games

[Nick DiMola]

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=18930

  Legendary guitarist Jimmy Page and White Stripes guitarist Jack White both recently had some harsh words for Guitar Hero, and music games in general.    

During a recent press conference regarding the documentary It Might Get Loud, Jimmy Page made the following remark:    

"You think of the drum part that John Bonham did on Led Zeppelin's first track on the first album, Good Times Bad Times, how many drummers in the world can play that part, let alone on Christmas morning?"

   

Jack White had the following to say:    

"It's depressing to have a label come and tell you that [Guitar Hero] is how kids are learning about music and experiencing music ... Which format people should get their music in ... if you have to be in a video game to get in front of them, that's a little sad."

   

I find both remarks a bit upsetting because both artists seem to miss the point of music games.    

In response to Jimmy Page: People know they can't play drums like John Bonham, thus they try and feel like that star by mastering a simpler version of that within a game. It gives people a sense of accomplishment and draws them that much closer to the music they know and love.    

In response to Jack White: He demeans the experience by saying it's sad that kids get into new music via video games, but without that game, the kids may have never experienced it otherwise. A number of bands and songs featured in these games are from a different era of music, and much of that is lost on people in their parent's generation. You can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.    

While I don't have much more to say about this, I figured I would bring this up as a point of discussion. What are your feelings?

[MegaByte]

I especially agree with your second response.  I have a friend (my age) who is a youth minister.  He was taking some middle schoolers on a field trip and was playing 70s rock in the van.  He was shocked to find out that all of the kids knew the song.  He asked them how they knew it.  Their answer: Guitar Hero.

[vudu]

He asked them how they knew it.  Their answer: Guitar Hero.

Um, but Led Zeppelin doesn't have any songs in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.

[ShyGuy]

I think what Jack White said is the equivalent of saying it's sad that kids learn about Treasure Island or The Count of Monte Cristo from those movies rather than reading the books.

[Ian Sane]

As a musician I initially found the sudden success of Guitar Hero quite annoying.  I have since played the game and love it.  To me though it's strictly a game, I get no thrill from pretending I can play guitar since I really can do that.  I'm probably missing out on the experience a bit but whatever.

At first there were people that acted like they were musicians now because they played Guitar Hero or Rock Band.  I know someone who bought a guitar stand for their GH guitar.  There were people that talked about their "band" and they meant their videogame band.  Some people at work started taking up guitar because of the game, but lacked the patience to really learn it and expected like they would just be instantly good.  I saw music stores acting like Rock Band could help you learn the basic skills to playing an instrument which is largely bullshit (I could see how it would apply to drums though).  When GH/RB mania was going down there were a lot of poser musicians that thought they were hot **** because they were good at a videogame.  That's pretty annoying when you actually can play an instrument are in an actual band and have written your own songs.  But things have since died down and it doesn't bother me anymore.  It was just a fad for a little while.

It is frustrating that kids are learning about these songs through a videogame.  That's still better than not knowing the materal at all but it's still not that great.  They had to kind of be "tricked" into discovering the song.  There is such emphasis on what's modern and young people aren't encouraged to really do some research and familiarize themselves with music as a whole.  From a videogame perspective isn't it annoying to meet teens that only seem to know games from the last two years and spout off all this ignorant BS?  When I was 13 I made a conscious effort to get to know music from before I was born.  I found it very rewarding.  I still do that.  I find out about a band and then I look into their influences.

Young people should do that.  They don't.  They're not encouraged to because you just want to sell them the current thing (and in a lot of cases the current thing is of such low quality it relies on the customer to be ignorant of better).  So if a videogame is what introduces them to the song, well, that's kind of lame.  Plus I think most musicians want their music to be associated as songs that you listen to, not "levels" in a videogame or for that matter background music for a movie or tv show or ad.  You want music to be special.  These days with iPods and MP3s and bullshit American Idol reality show crap it seems like music has become very disposable.  Videogames add to that.  You work hard on an album and few people actually sit down and listen to it from start to finish as you intended.  That's disappointing.

When you're really passionate about something it can frustrating to encounter so many people that don't share that passion.

[NWR_Neal]

I believe Weezer's Rivers Cuomo made a similar comment a while back.

But this always annoys me. I've always been someone who's loved music, but I've never been good at actually playing it. I've been around bands, I've listened to lots of music, I go to concerts. I really enjoy it, but I don't have any musical talent.

Guitar Hero/Rock Band let me experience music in a different way and have really opened my eyes to the real talent of some bands and just the fact that other bands existed. GH/RB has contributed to me listening to a lot of bands I knew about but never listened to a lot. It's also helped me to be able to pick out different instruments in songs easily.

Those musicians who talk down about GH/RB can shove it. Just because you play music doesn't mean you can chastise people for experiencing it in a way you don't approve of. Jack White, just go do more Elvis impersonations in movies and Jimmy Page, I don't think we want more kids like John Bonham. He's dead.

[NWR_pap64]

Meh, they'll change their tunes once either EA or Activision approach them to have their songs in the games and they get a lovely fee out of it.

[broodwars]

In related news, no one really gives a damn what these two guys think.  The only thing that's going to kill the music games industry is the overpriced plastic peripherals.

If the Beattles Rock Band game does well, we might see a rise in music games based on old music, so that might help your cause a bit on musical history appreciation, Ian.

[D_Average]

I don't think the musicians believe there's intrinsically anything wrong with the game.  I think they're merely speaking to the misconception that "playing GH on a regular basis will turn you into a real musician".  And to this point, they are absolutely correct, it won't.

As a guitarist and drummer myself, I don't own a single GH or Rock Band game, just Elite Beat Agents and Singstar.  When you can already play the real thing yourself, it just doesn't do the trick (unless there's a lot of beer and/or women in the room).  If I'm bored practicing an instrument, I'll simply learn a new cover song, which is far more thrilling to me personally.

But, as a musician, I don't get uptight about these games.  I think they're great for the music industry.  Not because it leads kids to buy real guitars, but because it leads kids to buy music again.  And without that, there is no music industry.  Its all about simulating the thrill of being a rockstar, just as Mirrors Edge is about simulating parkour.  I played the $$$ out of Mirrors Edge, but I have yet to attempt a wall/run/jump/spin/attack in reality.  Not sure it translates as well as spending hours on a flight simulator only to someday land a 747 full of snakes.

That said, as someone who listens to electronic music and does not have the time to master the turntables, I'm pretty excited to pick up DJ Hero once the price drops.

[BranDonk Kong]

Pretty stupid/ignorant comments from these two. It's a game, it's fun to play, and you might learn about a band that you've never heard of before. Just *how* are kids supposed to learn about music, then? I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this - but it has nothing to do with their comments, I've always felt that these two are very overrated - Page moreso than White. Also, you'll never learn to play guitar from these games, but you could get a grasp on basic drumming - I certainly have.

[Dirk Temporo]

Jack White is pretty on-target. However, to be completely frank, neither of these literal superstars has any room to talk. They've never had any problems getting in front of people, because EVERYBODY knows who they are. When you get right down to it, Led Zeppelin was another mass media puppet, as is everyone in Guitar Hero and Rock Band. Ultimately, these games are just another method of perpetuating the commercial bulls**t that has been the face of music since the 1950s.

People ask me why I don't like rhythm games. My first answer is always because I don't care to sink enough time into them to become good at them, and my second is always that they're filled with music that I just don't care about because I've heard it all a million times on the radio, and guess how often I listen to the radio anymore!

[D_Average]

Pretty stupid/ignorant comments from these two. It's a game, it's fun to play, and you might learn about a band that you've never heard of before. Just *how* are kids supposed to learn about music, then? I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this - but it has nothing to do with their comments, I've always felt that these two are very overrated - Page moreso than White. Also, you'll never learn to play guitar from these games, but you could get a grasp on basic drumming - I certainly have.

Page is the best guitarist/songwriter in history.  He can do it all.  Heavy riffs, masterful solos, mind bending acoustic melodies, there is no one else like him.  I can see why some people do not like the band as Plant's voice is love it or hate it, but there is no one like Page.  Unlike many other great guitarists, his songs sounded vastly different from each other.  6 solid albums of classics before the band took its inevitable dive.

(Full disclosure, listening to Led Zeppelin as a teen is what drove me to learn the guitar)

[D_Average]

When you get right down to it, Led Zeppelin was another mass media puppet

I'm not sure you even know what that is.  There's a big difference between a media puppet, and those that are worshiped by the media.  Falling into the latter does not necessarily make you the former.

[Nick DiMola]

For the record, I'm a guitarist myself and I still enjoying playing the plastic toy games. They are fun with friends who don't necessarily play music. Forming a cohesive unit and producing something is a great feeling whether it's with real instruments or toy plastic ones.

Also, I agree about Page. One of the best to ever play the instrument... and Led Zeppelin is also fucking amazing.

[rbtr]

I just listened to "Good Times, Bad Times" and that drum part is pretty insane.  Page's comment makes a little less sense.

I think White is pretty on target.  It is kind of sad that kids have to learn about music through plastic instruments and timed button prompts.  I learned about music in middle school, and high school by playing the trumpet.  There are venues for kids to learn music, we teach it in the school system, a great way to get more kids to learn about music would be to fund that better.  You learn a lot from actually playing a real instrument (patience, discipline, etc.)  and you learn none of that from the plastic ones.  There's a lot to music, and while music games can help you appreciate it a bit better, you can appreciate it so much more if you take the time to learn an instrument.    And to the people who complain "I have no musical talent".  Music isn't some innate ability, you've got to learn it, it's a different language, and you have to use an external "voice box" but you can learn it, it just takes a lot of time.  Listen to the early White Stripes albums, and then listen to the later ones.  You can hear Jack improve, Jack White doesn't just posses this ability, he is learning and crafting it.  Page didn't start out quite as awesome as he became, go listen to the Yardbirds.

Guitar Hero doesn't come anywhere close to a true musical experience.  When I play guitar with a group of people and we all click into a groove, and everybody is rocking full throttle, its a semi religious experience.  I get a high from it.  When I play guitar hero I'm just going through the motions.  There are better ways to bring music to kids, hell, there are better ways to bring music to everybody.

That block of text said, if this watered down version of ambrosia is the best people can get, then I guess thats something....

[D_Average]

I just listened to "Good Times, Bad Times" and that drum part is pretty insane.  Page's comment makes a little less sense.

Haha, I've heard critics bring this up too.  It should be in the Guiness book of world records.  Specifically, what Page is referring to is the way Bonham can make a single bass pedal sound like a double.  You can hear it really well around 22 seconds in, the way he rolls that bass drum in as a fill.  Just.  F$$ing.  Amazing.

You can practice all you want, but most human are physically incapable of such a feat.  But then again, now we have well constructed triple bass pedals.

[rbtr]

Oh yeah I heard it.  Bonham is a beast, he's absolutely incredible.  You don't need two bass drums to get  bass rolls.  Actually, when I was in high school, the drummer in our jazz band was pretty good at getting bass drum rolls with one foot.  Good fun to watch!

Page's comment didn't seem like a complaint on the game, just more of a complaint on the general skill level of musicians today. 

SORRY JIMMY IM TRYING MY BEST OKAY

[broodwars]

The thing is, this is just the old guard calling the new wave bad because the new generation has their own way of appreciating music, and it's not theirs.  I was a musician in high school as well, a vocalist under one hell of a taskmaster and I gained an appreciation for music that still lasts to this day.  That said, no one ever showed up to our choral performances unless we were performing pop music (which sadly was rare) or performing at special venues like Disney.  So in my mind, if playing along with Guitar Hero teaches people some piece of musical theory (like rhythm), it's fine with me.  Maybe it will inspire people to take up music for real or at least make them take better notice of it in their everyday lives.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Some of us don't want to learn to play music for real.  Someone telling me playing Guitar Hero isn't as good as playing a real guitar might as well be telling me playing Rogue Squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-Wing.  It ain't gonna happen anyway.  Sure, I'd like to be able to play the guitar, but unless I can learn how the same way Trinity learned to fly a helicopter in The Matrix, I'm not willing to put in the effort.  At all.  (I'm sure any musicians staring incredulously at me now could think of plenty of hobbies other people enjoy that they have no interest in.  Stamp collecting, raising tarantulas, running marathons, climbing Mt. Everest, etc.)

I also find new appreciation for music I experience through games.  There are songs I can't stand on the radio that I enjoy playing in Guitar Hero, and there are songs I've always liked that I like even more now because playing Guitar Hero made me pay attention to nuances in the music that I never noticed before.  Of course, there are also songs and bands I'd never even heard of before playing Guitar Hero that I have some interest in now (and I'm actually talking about newer stuff).

That last point reminds me of something else.  I have a lot of trouble just listening to music and doing nothing else.  I try to just sit and listen and enjoy the music, but it is inevitable that my mind will wander.  It's a physical certainty, and it drives me crazy.  I've found the best cure for that problem to be Audiosurf.  It focuses my entire mind on the music.  I've used it to rediscover my own music collection as well as expand my interests.  That may not be in the same category as Guitar Hero, but it's enough for me to believe that gaming as an avenue of learning about music isn't "sad" just because some purists can't let go of their glory days.

[Ian Sane]

When you get right down to it, Led Zeppelin was another mass media puppet, as is everyone in Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

If Led Zeppelin was a mass media puppet than who the hell isn't one?  They produced all of their own albums and made whatever the **** music striked their fancy and famously never released any singles in their home country.  Jimmy Page is freakishly lucky because all the creative control he had.  I love Led Zeppelin and they're a huge influence on me.  I especially love how their songs are so unique.  There aren't any really blatant rewrites or filler tracks.  They had some songs I don't personally care for but they're like self-indulgent experiments as opposed to obvious filler designed to pad an album.  I love bands like The Ramones and AC/DC but, ****, those guys are so formulaic and they're pretty much just writing the same song a hundred times.  But Zeppelin didn't even fall into the conventions of their genre.  They were supposedly a heavy metal band but you got big rockers and slow blues numbers and acoustic folk tunes and epic progressive rock and some funky dance songs.  While comtemporaries like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple were always trying to rock out and have this real tough sound, Zeppelin didn't cater to that.  If they wanted to do songs like Tangerine, Going to California, Fool in the Rain or All My Love they just did them even though those songs didn't fit the heavy metal mold at all.  It's like "let's just make good songs" and that's it.  Every band should have that confidence - just make good songs and don't pigeonhole yourself as a genre.

And to the people who complain "I have no musical talent".  Music isn't some innate ability, you've got to learn it, it's a different language, and you have to use an external "voice box" but you can learn it, it just takes a lot of time.

I tend to disagree but I don't want to discourage people from trying.  I think, as with most or possibly all talents, that musical talent is something that you have some natural ability for but you need to learn the skills to make use of it.  I've observed too many people that just never seem to get it to conclude that anyone can do it.  But you should try.  You have to be patient and put in the effort.  And it really helps if you have a good music teacher that makes it fun.  There are too many teachers that just make it a big chore.  To me a big part of music is in the creativity of it: writing your own material or at the very least interpretting someone else's material in your own way.  I've never been very impressed by someone who is technically proficient but has no style of their own and doesn't write anything.  Creativity isn't something that can be taught.  Everyone learns in English class the basic fundamentals of writing.  We could all technically write a book but how many of us could write something actually good?  That's a part of the process you can't really learn.  Same with music.

But you don't know until you try.  Just looking up how to play a few chords and an easy three or four chord song will give you an idea.

[rbtr]

Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do?  I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility.  Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar?  You could be doing that within a few days.  I'm sure stamp collecting is rewarding in it's own right, and raising tarantuals could be a good deal of fun.

What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)?  Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only?  It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.

[Stratos]

Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do?  I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility.  Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar?  You could be doing that within a few days.  I'm sure stamp collecting is rewarding in it's own right, and raising tarantuals could be a good deal of fun.

What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)?  Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only?  It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.

If the 'watered down version' got more people interested in the legit thing then I would be all for the lesser version. Isn't that basically what the Wii has done for gaming?

Also, look at how the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games have revitalized the music industry. It was tanking. But now there is the 'Guitar Hero effect' where any artist in these games experiences a spike in sales when their songs appear. It is a gateway to music. I had never heard half of these bands or nover appreciated them the way they deserved. It expanded my taste in music. It also encourages me to learn some of these songs on my real guitar. I love to do both. I enjoy the game because it is fun, and I can play it with ither people. Bu tI also enjoy playing music in real life.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do?  I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility.  Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar?  You could be doing that within a few days.  I'm sure stamp collecting is rewarding in it's own right, and raising tarantuals could be a good deal of fun.

You missed the point.  It's not about rather, it's about gonna.  As in not gonna.

I had several weeks of guitar lessons as part of the curriculum in middle school, so there's no use in lying to me about it.  In a few days, I could be playing a basic chord progression to accompany "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star."  That's not fun.  Besides, I played cornet through middle school, high school, and part of college.  I had fun playing it during school, and I loathed practicing.  From that experience, I know for a fact that I could never enjoy practice with any instrument, not even a holophoner.

What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)?  Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only?  It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.

Why should anyone care?  Nobody playing Guitar Hero is experiencing your hobby at all, "most basic component" or otherwise.  They're playing a video game.  It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and fresh squeezed apple juice.

[rbtr]

Fair enough.  And in three days you couldlearn to play a couple of tom petty songs, or dylan, or a lot of early classic rock songs for that matter.  And you don't have to practice, I never practice guitar I just play.

In the end it doesn't matter, to each his own.  I'm a firm believer that everyone should play an instrument.  And I'm sure some are firm believers that everyone should collect stamps.

[Ian Sane]

I had several weeks of guitar lessons as part of the curriculum in middle school, so there's no use in lying to me about it.  In a few days, I could be playing a basic chord progression to accompany "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star."  That's not fun.

I guess you didn't read the part of my post where I say it's important to have a teacher that makes music fun.  My first song was Frere Jacques.  After a few years of getting nowhere playing little baby music I switched guitar teachers.  First song I learned from him?  Knockin' on Heaven's Door.  That when it all really started for me.  A good teacher teaching you music you actually want to play makes all the difference.

I formed my band in high school with a friend of mine.  Him and I are the guitar players but at that time he only played piano.  He assumed at the time that I would be the guitarist and he would play keyboards and I would write all the songs.  He was surprised though when he found out that at the time I had very little knowledge of music theory and has written my first songs by just fucking around with the chords I knew.  He had taken piano at the Royal Conservatory of Music and knew music theory inside and out but had never played anything but classical music and never written anything because he never had been encouraged to.  He thought music was just playing on the piano the sheet music put in front of his face.  I had had a considerably less conservative musical education and I encouraged him to write his own stuff and he shortly afterwards taught himself guitar using my chord sheets as reference.

If I never met him or I gave up guitar during the initial years with my shitty guitar teacher he would just be some shmuck who can play Mozart on the piano.  That's all his training ever introduced him to.  Instead music is his life.  I probably would have forgotten how to play guitar if I hadn't been lucky enough to have the guitar teacher I did.

I like Guitar Hero though and don't really damn anyone for playing it.  Just don't act like you're some musician because of it.  Thankfully that's died down.

The irony is the money spent on plastic instruments could be spent on a low cost beginner real instrument.  Unlike piloting an X-Wing the cost of entry is comparible.