Topic: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010

[TJ Spyke]

Adrock, you won't admit that your unreliable source should not be used and won't admit I am right (the comment on the $25 million was just me saying that I know that not all $30 million went to Microsoft, some went to retailers and a licensing fee went to the HD DVD Alliance).

Back on topic, I honestly hope Microsoft gets Natal to work the way they promised it would back at E3. It looked like it could be fun, and I would probably get it if it was $50 or less (although I doubt it will be).

[BlackNMild2k1]

Do you live in a tiny apartment, small house or play your 360 in your bedroom?

Then it's time to buy a bigger house!!!

Natal needs more space!!

Some advice for any Xbox 360 owners thinking ahead to the launch of  Microsoft's Project Natal later this year: You might want to see if  you'll need to reconfigure your living room. After all, the  motion-sensing control system is no sit-on-the-couch experience. You'll  need some space to move your body and swing your arms without banging  into the coffee table.
 
 To be precise, you'll want to clear an area extending at least 4  meters (a little more than 13 feet) away from the television. That's the  back edge of the space to be taken into account by the Natal sensors.  In terms of width and height, the field of vision naturally expands as  it moves from the Natal device to that back edge, ending up a little  more than 4 meters wide and 2.7 meters high (about 8 feet, 10 inches).
 
 Those were among the tidbits passed along by representatives of the  Natal team during a briefing for a group of reporters and bloggers  Monday on the company's Redmond campus. The session was part of a  day-long technology discussion held by Craig Mundie, the company's chief  research and strategy officer.
 
 Natal, announced last year at the E3 video-game convention, is due out  by the holidays. It's Microsoft's effort to bring its own "natural user  interface" to the Xbox 360. It differs from Nintendo's Wii and Sony's  upcoming Motion Controller, in that the camera system senses movement  without requiring the gamer to hold a controller. (However, one of  the details that emerged from the session is that controllers and  accessories can be used in conjunction with moving around to add even  more elements of control to games.)
 
 During the Monday session, we quizzed Don Mattrick, who heads the  company's video-game business as its senior vice president of  interactive entertainment. Mattrick said the response from consumers in  testing of Project Natal has been "off the charts." Mattrick said he's  excited about the types of experiences that game developers are creating  with the system, declining to go into details. He noted that Natal is  also getting interest from the broader entertainment industry, citing as  an example Steven Spielberg's early endorsement.
 
 The session included lots of technical details on the Natal device,  including its three sensors for measuring the depth of the room,  capturing the gamer's movement and ensuring adequate light. The  machine-learning system can also tell where parts of your body should be  even if they aren't visible to the camera, such as an arm tucked behind  your back. (Technical phrase: "Extremity occlusion resilient.")
 
 The Natal team says the device requires less in the way of processing  than the average smartphone, because they wanted to leave as much  processing as possible available to the game itself.
 
 As for the price? Mattrick wouldn't say, but he predicted that it won't  be as much as consumers who have tested the device might expect, given  the amount of fun they say they're having. Microsoft has created the  Natal device with off-the-shelf components, which has the effect of  keeping costs down and positioning the company to take advantage of  broader industry advances in vision technology and sensors.
 "We're going to drive the business, and make it scale, and make it  profitable," Mattrick said.

[King of Twitch]

AT LEAST 13 feet? That leaves Japan out.

What a boondoggle.

[mac<censored>]

Yup... my apt is large for Japan, but I do most gaming about 3-4 feet away from my TV; if I clear out the room to make space, I might have about 8-10 available....

(note that the wii also has these issue a bit, but can be coaxed to work in small spaces)

[Ian Sane]

13 feet?  I got like maybe 10 to work with unless I reconfigure the arrangement of my room.  I own a house so I have the space but I would have to rearrange everything.

Natal just becomes more pathetic with each reveal.  MS, just rip off the Wii remote like Sony did.  This controllerless idea is just not going to work.  I don't think people even really WANT it to work.

[Stogi]

It can't really be 13 ft. That sounds unrealistic.

[vudu]

AT LEAST 13 feet? That leaves Japan out.

When was Japan ever in with regards to the Xbox?

[GearBoxClock]

Alas poor Natal, I didn't care, Horatio.

[TJ Spyke]

13 feet will eliminate almost everyone. I think my bedroom is MAYBE 13 feet (wall to wall), and the only possible room that could work is my living room (which isn't an option).

Also, doesn't using off the shelf parts prevent Microsoft from being able to lower the cost of Natal? That is one of the reasons the Xbox never made a profit, it used off the shelf parts and that prevented Microsoft from being able to lower the cost to them of producing the system.

[NWR_insanolord]

13 feet will eliminate almost everyone. I think my bedroom is MAYBE 13 feet (wall to wall), and the only possible room that could work is my living room (which isn't an option).

Also, doesn't using off the shelf parts prevent Microsoft from being able to lower the cost of Natal? That is one of the reasons the Xbox never made a profit, it used off the shelf parts and that prevented Microsoft from being able to lower the cost to them of producing the system.

They may have already realized what a colossal failure this thing is going to be and decided that if it's going to flop anyway there's no point in going to the trouble to design custom hardware for it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Has anyone ever stopped to take a minute and find out exactly what the word Natal even means? I just looked on Wiktionary.org, and this is what I found for Natal:

Etymology 2

From Latin natis (“‘rump’”), plural nates
Adjective
natal (comparative more natal, superlative most natal)


   1. Of or relating to the buttocks.



So in other words, Natal basically means "Ass".

Project Natal = Project Ass or Project Butt

[BlackNMild2k1]

Looks like MS is gonna hold 2 events at this years E3.

Sunday, the day/night before E3, they are having the "Natal Experience"
and then the usual E3 Press Conference Monday morning

Microsoft to hold E3 press conference plus Natal “experience” event
Aaron Greenberg has just tweeted that Microsoft is to hold a press conferences at E3 this year, along with “Project Natal” experience on that Sunday.

Here’s the tweet:

Just 1 press conference on Monday morning, Sunday night is a “Project Natal” experience, not a press conference.

The world premiere of Project Natal for Xbox 360 Experience will take place Sunday, June 13 at the USC Galen Center, and on Monday morning, MS will hold its Xbox 360 Media Briefing at the Wiltern Theater.

“We’re gearing up for a really exciting E3 and wanted to share some key dates to put on your calendar,” said Greenberg. “More details to come.”

Xbox production boss Aaron Greenberg has told VG247 that Microsoft’s just-announced E3 Natal event on Sunday, June 13 will be an “all ages” affair designed to show “the universal appeal of Xbox 360″.

“We’re gearing up for a really exciting E3 – unlike any E3 we’ve ever had before,” said the exec, speaking moments after confirmation of Microsoft’s E3 press plans.

“As you may have heard, our traditional news briefing is on the morning of Monday, June 14. Additionally, as a kick off to the week, we will be hosting a can’t-miss exclusive “Project Natal” World Premiere experience designed for all ages and demonstrating the universal appeal of Xbox 360 on Sunday evening.

“We’ll have more details on both events and additional media opportunities for Xbox 360 at E3 in the coming months, but wanted to get the word out now as you make your plans.”

sources:
http://www.vg247.com/2010/03/25/microsoft-to-have-two-e3-press-conferences/
http://www.vg247.com/2010/03/25/greenberg-natal-e3-experience-will-demonstrate-360s-universal-appeal/

[BlackNMild2k1]

Ok. Now I've never been sold on Natal or gesture based controlerless solutions, but these 3 videos just showed me ho much of a disaster Natal could be.

These 3 videos show how we take something that is familiar and simple(even if complicated by too many buttons at times) and make it even more complex with needless movements and complicated menu systems that actually seem more frustrating than pushing a few buttons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH33xpAA1k8#t=2m44s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O21SYHDEPOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR27dPHI7dQ

and in other news, Primesense is still being used in Natal

PrimeSense™ supplies 3D-sensing technology to 'Project Natal' for Xbox 360
Ground-Breaking Optical Sensing and Recognition Technologies to Aid Gesture Control Platform

source: http://www.primesense.com/category/media

Their video isn't all that convincing either.

I can already see all the fights over someone behind the couch changing the channel, ot someone yelling and turning the TV off and any number of other issues solved by one person being in control of the actual remote.

[Chozo Ghost]

I can already see all the fights over someone behind the couch changing the channel, ot someone yelling and turning the TV off and any number of other issues solved by one person being in control of the actual remote.

On the other hand, it would be really fun if you're the sort of person that likes to mess with people and deliberately screw up what they're doing just for kicks.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Ok. Now I've never been sold on Natal or gesture based controlerless solutions, but these 3 videos just showed me ho much of a disaster Natal could be.

These 3 videos show how we take something that is familiar and simple(even if complicated by too many buttons at times) and make it even more complex with needless movements and complicated menu systems that actually seem more frustrating than pushing a few buttons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH33xpAA1k8#t=2m44s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O21SYHDEPOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR27dPHI7dQ

and in other news, Primesense is still being used in Natal

PrimeSense™ supplies 3D-sensing technology to 'Project Natal' for Xbox 360
Ground-Breaking Optical Sensing and Recognition Technologies to Aid Gesture Control Platform

source: http://www.primesense.com/category/media

Their video isn't all that convincing either.

I can already see all the fights over someone behind the couch changing the channel, ot someone yelling and turning the TV off and any number of other issues solved by one person being in control of the actual remote.

The fundamental idea that the Natal product concept is constantly missing out on is selling an "ENTERTAINING EXPERIENCE" to the consumer.

Wii sold a "tennis" experience, a "bowling" experience, etc. (that people did enjoy).

Natal is selling... spasms for TV control?

[D_Average]

Man, that menu navigating looks incredibly arduous.  No thanks.

[Stogi]

Well I guess I should dissect this piece by piece....

First of all, that first video was the worst technically but was still my favorite because it linked me to this VIDEO (NSFW)

The second video looked much better and less responsive to everyday hand gestures, yet more responsive to deliberate hand gestures. I guess what I'm saying is, there's less of a middle ground....which is good.

That third video, while interesting, could never work that like. How in the hell did he pick the channel he wanted just by pushing forward?

Either way, even though I'm skeptical, I think there really is potential for this kind of technology, although I don't think we'll see something revolutionary till a few years down the line. For instance, I would love to control my computer or iphone device without smudging the screen.

[BlackNMild2k1]

get a mouse or a touch screen that uses a stylus?

But I think the best thing that will come from Natal, will be advances in face/voice recognition for everyday uses and behind the scenes advancements in gesture/fullbody recognition.

The former will be used for advanced security in everyday items, like ATMs, credit card machines and things like that. While the latter has a long way to go before someone finds a compelling way to make the tech useful and not just a more complex way to do something that is already simple enough(push up, down or a number button).

Rare says that they will define the Natal Experience, so I hope they blow me away and make me see the light, because at this point, Sony's middle ground tech has the most potential at actually being useful for the field it's being used in. Gaming.

[Stogi]

Use a mouse instead of simply clicking what you want? Who uses a mouse when not at work?

Use a stylus? Seems incredibly archaic. Who uses a stylus anymore other than for the DS?

I just kinda imagined using an iphone and flipping through pages of apps without actually touching it. The camera would capture your fingers and have a transparent onscreen representation.

[BlackNMild2k1]

use a 3DS
the menu seemingly floats just off the screen and the 2 motion tracking cameras track your finger or a stylus (that also vibrates when you touch the menu options). It's gonna be sweet.

[BlackNMild2k1]

See what Natal Sees

Ilan Spillinger, Microsoft's Xbox 360 VP, was on hand in Tel Aviv yesterday for a showcase of Project Natal. Although there wasn't much in the way of groundbreaking stuff, the resulting video does show off the motion control system's gender recognition (done through Natal's facial recognition ... you filthy child) and ability to track two players within the frame at the same time. A tipster from the audience tells us that earlier lag issues have been eradicated, although some jitter was indeed apparent when the second person stepped into Natal's field of vision. Either way, it's looking like Microsoft's Xbox 360 peripheral is progressing well toward its release near the end of this year. Go past the break to see for yourself.

video @ the link above

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I wouldn't call that lag eradicated.  That imagery is coming from raw (body to camera to screen) capture feeds, so the input hasn't been processed/interpretted enough (delay) to generate actual (brand new) in-game movements.  It's very much like a camcorder displaying you on a TV in an electronics store, which creates a similar amount of delay.

At best, it's as responsive as the worst IR pointer games on Wii.

[Ian Sane]

Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong.   This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road.  You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt.  I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.

[EasyCure]

Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong.   This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road.  You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt.  I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.

it'll ask you to tilt your head back to scan for an adams apple

[Chozo Ghost]

Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong.   This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road.  You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt.  I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.

it'll ask you to tilt your head back to scan for an adams apple

That doesn't mean anything, because contrary to belief women also have that and if you're overweight it probably isn't visible regardless.

The only GUARANTEED way to make a gender authentication is to look between the legs. But even then,  sometimes its not so clear cut...