Topic: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010

[ThePerm]

'cause if there's one thing most consumers want, its something Nintendo came up with 5 years ago

fixed

[Stogi]

I was thinking more like something out of Minority Report...

[SixthAngel]

After seeing a video with a guy break dancing I think the launch is going to be full of dance games and fitness games.

It will probably be able to do both very well if lag doesn't screw things up.  I can see an improvement over the Wii dance games my girlfriend plays and new fitness applications (no scale though) and they are single player so no worries.  These are also games that have been released and kind of proven so it fits the general attitude of developers and motion control.

[Stogi]

So like what? Virtual jump rope and what not?

[Chozo Ghost]

This is Microsoft, so we all should know that they don't really give much of a crap about video games. The Xbox is a gaming machine (for the moment), but what they really want to do with it is invade people's living rooms and set up their monopoly there the way they did with computers.

So when Microsoft says Natal is an interface thing and not for games, they are probably telling the truth. This might be more for browsing the web, doing spreadsheets, etc.

[SixthAngel]

So like what? Virtual jump rope and what not?

I am thinking things that involve a little more jumping but especially things that involve more arm movement.  Jumping jacks is a possiblity.  Natal seems like it could pick them up better than the remote and doesn't have a wire to keep your hands from moving too far apart.
A lot of dance games and exercise games tell you to move your remoteless arm or bend down anyway and it only measures the remote.  The movement will be different in quite a few instances but it will depend if people really care if the game also measures their legs when they dance, not just their arm(s).  This does bring a possible problem of the games just being too difficult though if too many inputs are required, but that is all up to developers.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Could there be a SlimBox360 to go with the Natal Launch Bundle?

Steve Ballmer teases new Xbox 360 form factors, price points and options

For that big screen device ... there's no diversity. You get exactly the Xboxes that we build for you. We may have more form factors in the future that are designed for various price points and options, but we think it's going to [be] important.

If they came up with a SlimBox360 and was not only better looking the then current 360, smaller than the current 360, but completely redesigned on the inside to eliminate all the RRoD and Err44 or whatever they're called, then it might finally be time to put the fears of a failed 360 behind me and finally pick one up.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Natal Lineup to be revealed at E3. 70% of developers on board...

Mount said the company has put its best designers in charge of coming up with ideas for the platform.

"We have very strong first and third-party developer support for [Natal], she said. "Needless to say, we're putting some of our best people on coming up with great game ideas for this, and we're going to have some great stuff."

During last year's Tokyo Game Show, Microsoft published a list of developers "actively working" on Natal-based titles, which includes Bethesda, Electronic Arts, and Square-Enix. And as recently as January, the list has grown to over 70 percent of total game publishers worldwide.

"It's part of the reason that we announced [Natal] as early as last summer so that we'd have time to get kits out and get the entire game developer community developing games for it."

Mount also said the company expects to show gamers its full lineup of Natal games at this year's E3 event in Los Angeles.

"As a history, Microsoft works very strong with third-party developers, so we're hoping that we're going to get some great titles from that," she said. "You'll be able to see more news about that this summer at E3. We'll show you the full lineup."

Fable III, Microsoft's exclusive Xbox 360 title set for release this fall, is the only major title confirmed to support Natal so far. The company's other big title this year, Halo: Reach, will not utilize Natal at all, developer Bungie confirmed.

I expect MS to have an HUGE space reserved at E3 this year otherwise Natal will encompass their entire booth. and they can't have that happen since they just said:
MS: ā€˜Natal wonā€™t hurt our core focusā€™

ā€œFrom the beginning, Xbox has always had a very deliberate strategy to focus on core gamers and then expand the market,ā€ said Lewis.
[...]
ā€œProject Natal is meant to complement, not replace, the experiences on Xbox 360. Weā€™ve reached new heights in creating a more natural and responsive gaming and entertainment experience for people of all interests and skill levels, whilst maintaining our commitment to deliver quality core games that consistently exceed expectations.ā€

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

They NEED space just for one player to look idiotic.  Wii is efficient and ergonomic enough to comfortably accommodate 2 idiots in a similar space.

Natal is NOT for playing together.
Natal is for playing with yourself.

[BlackNMild2k1]

IGN: "Natal is a buggy, slow, imprecise piece of ****"

Natal, though -- the motion offering from Microsoft -- not so much. The same studio rep calls Natal a big, buggy mess. "It's sh*t," he adds, saying that it just doesn't work as promised. That it's slow and that the camera is imprecise, which he notes, is causing some major development woes.

He refers to a development conference Microsoft held not so long ago in which Peter Molyneux of Fable fame (presently, creative director at Microsoft Game Studios) took the stage and attempted to demo the publisher's much-publicized Milo Natal project. Molyneux apparently called someone from the audience to the stage and asked them to interact with the virtual boy, but it didn't go to plan. Natal's camera failed to see the person accurately because he was wearing a black trench coat. After some fiddling, he was asked to remove his trench coat and -- whoops -- wore a black shirt underneath. When it still didn't work, he was invited to take his seat again.

Next, Molyneux said that Milo could interact with illustrations drawn to paper and scanned by the camera. He asked the audience for suggestions. "You could see him cocking his head and listening for the right key words, and then finally he heard something the game would recognize," my development source explains. It was a cat. So he invited someone from the audience to ascend the steps to the stage and illustrate the feline on paper. When Natal attempted to scan the horribly scribbled drawing, it instead picked up the Abercrombie & Fitch logo on the person's sweater.

I laugh at this but try to play devil's advocate. Okay, I say, so it's obvious you're not a fan, but somebody must be getting this thing to work well or it wouldn't be on the slate to ship this year. I ask if he knows of any other studios struggling with Natal.

"How about Rare and Lionhead? They're just going to try to make launch and then they're going to patch everything later," he says, laughing.

I'm very interested in the platform, but I haven't entrenched myself in Natal development. Later, when I bump into a colleague, I ask them if they have heard any behind-the-scenes rumblings about development trouble with Microsoft's casual entry device. He turns to me and says that yes, he has -- that studios are telling him they're struggling to get it working.

There is also some talk on Nintendo Wii and Wii 2 and the Sony Wiimote.

Takeaways so far: Sony has made a dildo-controller that feels like a gimped Wii remote. Natal sucks. And Wii 2 is in no rush. At least, that's how it goes in pure black and white and if you believe everything you hear at this year's Game Developers Conference.

edit: I forgot to add; E3 2010 is gonna be

[Chozo Ghost]

Looks like Microsoft had no trouble at all of giving NATAL that special Windoze BSOD touch they are well known for.

[TJ Spyke]

I hope they fix Natal before it launches because I like the idea of it (and hope they also include those 2 tech demos i with it, maybe Milo too).

[Ian Sane]

When Natal was announced it reaked of an idea conjured up in a boardroom by a bunch of marketing people who don't play videogames and lack the technical knowledge to even understand if their idea would even work.  And that's exactly what it is.

You can poke fun at Sony for just knocking off the Wii remote but at least they've got something that works and it was an idea that was already known to be feasible.  Natal sounds like a complete disaster.  It sounds so bad that I could see MS being in last place if they had to go against a PS3 w/ Move and a Wii2.  Consider that the next gen but MS would be so out-of-it with their non-functioning motion control that they might as well be a generation behind.

[Caterkiller]

Was going to post this too, very surprised about all of this. I remember the Red Steel demo years back at E3, the guy had a bit of trouble just aiming and doing various simple things. I thought "aww man" well there goes that game, I instantly knew it would be garbage. Well this don't look good for Microsoft, not at all. But I doubt it could be this mess when it launches. Then again...

[Chozo Ghost]

If any of you have doubts about Microsoft releasing a piece of garbage as a finished product, I refer you all to the examples of their Windows operating systems which are notorious for failure, and also the 360 itself with its frequent RRODs.

MS is a company notorious for software and hardware failure, so don't put it past them that NATAL would be a piece of **** at launch.


Here is a video that says it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzFUcDKC64E

Watch the video and then imagine something like this happening at E3 when NATAL is unveiled.

[Ian Sane]

If any of you have doubts about Microsoft releasing a piece of garbage as a finished product, I refer you all to the examples of their Windows operating systems which are notorious for failure, and also the 360 itself with its frequent RRODs.

Does anyone doubt that?
 
I figure they HAVE to release it.  How do you announce something like this and invest all this time and money into it and then just can the whole thing?  And I think they clearly still need a motion control solution of some sort since everyone else has one now.  I can't imagine practically any company doing this.  Games come out all the time where everyone call tell the whole thing is a complete disaster.  Same with movies.  I think the plan is just "let's hope enough people buy this junk to regroup costs."  The only time you really pull out of this is you're afraid of legal action being taken against a defective product (like car safety stuff).
 
Do you think Nintendo thought the Virtual Boy was going to go places or did they just release it because, **** it, they already made the damn thing and games for it.  Or how about junk like the Power Glove or Sega Activitor.  Surely those companies knew the product was a joke but sold it anyway.
 
Though I remember that the E3 before the Xbox launch Halo bombed hard at the show.  Everyone thought it was a joke.  And to the suprise everyone the issues were addressed in time and the game turned out to be good and the Xbox, you know, beat the Gamecube.  That's probably the only time I've ever seen something make such a turnaround in development.  Most games that suck at E3 suck when they're released.  So maybe MS can do that again.
 
... but I doubt it.  The idea just sounds like such a disaster.  It's like an invention a kid would come up with.  A kid comes up with an idea for virtual reality games but doesn't think for a second about the science behind it.

[Guitar Smasher]

... but I doubt it.  The idea just sounds like such a disaster.  It's like an invention a kid would come up with.  A kid comes up with an idea for virtual reality games but doesn't think for a second about the science behind it.

Don't insult kids, really the general public has a very poor grasp of the current state of science and technology.  It seems every new system is rumoured to have '3d projectors', or in the case of the Wii 'force resistance' (I'd love to see what my dynamics prof would have to say about that).  Remember when 'hover cars' were going to be the next thing?

But then maybe Natal isn't meant to be viable product.  The intent might have only been to be a viable solution.  It's been said before, but Natal is as much a marketing ploy as it is a product.  I'm sure Microsoft has known about its limitations for a considerable amount of time, but that doesn't really matter when all they're trying to do is steal attention and slow down Wii sales.  "Considering a Wii, well we're adding motion control to HD gaming!"  "Oh you want motion gaming now?  Well don't even consider a Wii because our motion controls will be fantastically better, and will make Wii look like child's play!"  It might sound silly, but they have to do something while they come up with a real strategy.

[ThePerm]

they don't have to release it...n64dd comes to mind. it sort of came out, but not really, iv never seen one at least.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?Product%5FID=76918

Wii has beaten Natal to the punch.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I hope Ubisoft pushes the hell out of that game and supports it with atleast one more title at E3.
"You want controller Free gaming!? We have already delivered and it's been available for months!! So why wait?"

I don't think it will sell well, but it will definitely make people question Natal a little bit.

[Luigi Dude]

Do you think Nintendo thought the Virtual Boy was going to go places or did they just release it because, **** it, they already made the damn thing and games for it. 

This is actually the correct reason.  None of the higher ups at Nintendo had any faith in the Virtual Boy and wanted Gunpei Yokoi to drop the project, but Yokoi was really dedicated to it.  Before the Virtual Boy, Yokoi was a high ranking employee at Nintendo and one of Yamauchi's most trusted.  Even though Yamauchi himself wasn't a fan of the Virtual Boy, he allowed it to be developed solely because of his faith in Yokoi.  Yokoi ended up betting his entire reputation and credibility in order to get Nintendo to release the system which is why when the system ended up being a failure, Yokoi's career at Nintendo was over.

Of course had Nintendo allowed Yokoi more time to actually finish the system and not force him to rush it out, it might have been more successful.  Yokoi wanted the system to be full color but they had a hard time getting it to work right.  Had he been given more time like he wanted, the system would have had full color instead of red/black which probably would have made it more successful.  How much more successful though no one know which is why I can see why Nintendo wouldn't allow him to have more time to finish the system up.

[Chozo Ghost]

they don't have to release it...n64dd comes to mind. it sort of came out, but not really, iv never seen one at least.

Exactly. All Microsoft has to do is do what Nintendo did with 64DD and release it exclusively in Japan. It is guaranteed not to sell there (nothing Microsoft makes does there), so there it can die a quiet death with little attention given to it. Microsoft would be able to save face by saying they did release it after all, and then they can mark it down at clearance prices to get rid of it just like how they did with the HD-DVD addons.

HD-DVD addon for the 360 was another of MS's hairbrained ideas.

[Chozo Ghost]

Of course had Nintendo allowed Yokoi more time to actually finish the system and not force him to rush it out, it might have been more successful.  Yokoi wanted the system to be full color but they had a hard time getting it to work right.  Had he been given more time like he wanted, the system would have had full color instead of red/black which probably would have made it more successful.  How much more successful though no one know which is why I can see why Nintendo wouldn't allow him to have more time to finish the system up.

I heard the reason it was only in red is because red lasers were the cheapest, and to use other lasers to make it in color would have upped the cost into the thousands of dollars. I'm sure prices are much lower now and if something like this were done today it could be done in full color at a much more affordable price.

But that actually isn't the reason it failed. There are actually many reasons ranging from poor battery life, to the fact it really wasn't portable at all, to endless complaints about people having headaches and eye damage while using it. Those were all factors in its failure.

But of course, the one thing that doomed it more than anything was the fact Nintendo themselves didn't support it. It was the exact same reason hat doomed Sega's 32x. The 32x was kinda cool, and probably could have been Sega's answer to the PS1 and so forth, but instead Sega ALSO released the Saturn and immediately severed support for the 32x. If a company won't support its own hardware 100% then its doomed to fail. That's really all there is to it.

[Luigi Dude]

But of course, the one thing that doomed it more than anything was the fact Nintendo themselves didn't support it. It was the exact same reason hat doomed Sega's 32x. The 32x was kinda cool, and probably could have been Sega's answer to the PS1 and so forth, but instead Sega ALSO released the Saturn and immediately severed support for the 32x. If a company won't support its own hardware 100% then its doomed to fail. That's really all there is to it.

Yeah, there's a reason why all the Nintendo games for the Virtual Boy only came from Yokoi's development teams.  It kind of shows just how little faith the management at Nintendo actually had in the system.  This is the tragic part of the Virtual Boy.  Had Yokoi stopped development when it was clear the higher ups at Nintendo wanted him too, he'd be one of the top people at the company right now.  Hell, considering the relationship and history he had with Yamauchi before the Virtual Boy, he probably could have had a decent shot at actually becoming the next president.

[Stogi]

Now he's getting drunk in an ally somewhere...

Poor guy...