Topic: Metroid Other M

[nickmitch]

The pixel hunts were really annoying. I had to use gamefaqs for almost every one. The boss battles weren't so bad to me. I hated the insta kills every boss has, but the need to find a way to recharge made each one a little more frantic which I liked. And the epilogue is pretty sweet. Things just don't feel right until the planet is about to blow.

[Enner]

I never had too much trouble with the pixel hunt bits. Perhaps that's due to an unnoticed high tolerance and patience for such tedium. The shield bugs in the epilogue threw me for quite a loop and it took a while to nail down their patterns and openings. It's been so long that I forgot if I abused the sense move mechanics to beat them or just blasted them with charged beam shots. I know that after the first couple of fatal encounters they became less of a frustration.

As for missiles and recharging, I can't remember a time where I needed to rearm in the middle of a fight. Perhaps in the beginning when you don't have so many missiles. I used missiles sparingly; almost exclusively on telegraphed weak points or openings.

The control scheme has proven to be a pain for a lot of people. Even though I feel that I got used to managing its quirks, there were still moments where it frustrated me.

[Mop it up]

Recharging is needed mostly on the hard mode where you don't get any energy tanks or missile expansions, otherwise the save stations were enough.

I didn't really use missiles except when required, because using them was so clunky.

[Chozo Ghost]

The pixel hunts were a piss poor substitute that was slapped together to fill in for the lack of the ability to scan objects like you could in previous Metroid games. Scanning your environment was one of my favorite features of the Metroid series, but that's completely absent from Other M. Instead we get pixel hunts which is a bunch of crap. Its like giving someone a cheeseburger and fries when they ordered steak and lobster.

As for the missiles, there are certain doors which you can only open with them but aside from that you could probably go through the entire game without ever using them and just use your beam weapon instead. I can't remember for sure, but I think I beat Ridley using just my beam weapon, so its certainly possible to get by without missiles. But if you only use one weapon the entire game it feels like you're only getting half the game. Imagine a Mario game where the Fireball attack required Mario to go into first person and then stand still for a few seconds in order to lock onto opponents. Does that sound ridiculous? Well, that's how it is in Other M. Missiles are a standard feature of the franchise, so having that feature ruined and being forced to avoid using them would be like a Mario game where you can only effectively use the jump attack and nothing else. Sure it might work, but it gets dull and repetitive to be limited like that.

[broodwars]

I guess that since people seem to be paying attention to Other M again, it's appropriate to post a link to the recent Extra Credits video on it and what the franchise needs to learn from it.

[Ian Sane]

Ah, we're bitching about Other M again?

The best way for me to sum up my opinion is that they took out nearly every element of Metroid that makes me like the series in the first place and every new idea they introduced was either executed poorly or was just a dumb idea to begin with.  The only things Other M did right were elements already present from previous entries in the series.

[Kytim89]

This game would have been one of my favorites for the Wii if the boss battles were not so tedious. I am actually stuck on the Metroid Queen because the point controls for the FPS aiming is just too asinine to adequatly kill the Metroids before they drain my health.

[Chozo Ghost]

I think I caught something in one of the rumors BnM or someone else had posted about a Metroid game going to be unveiled at E3. If that's true then its a good thing to dust this thread off and renew our bitching about Other M because we don't want history to repeat itself with the next Metroid game. The more we bitch the more likely it is that our bitching will be heard (hopefully).

[broodwars]

This game would have been one of my favorites for the Wii if the boss battles were not so tedious. I am actually stuck on the Metroid Queen because the point controls for the FPS aiming is just too asinine to adequatly kill the Metroids before they drain my health.

Continually charge your beam in 3rd person, and then quickly switch to 1st person to fire a Super Missile at the Metroids.

[Adrock]

The Extra Credits video didn't really say anything most of us haven't already discussed. Still nice to see it organized in a nice 11 minute video.

Still, I liked Other M. I thought it was a fun game despite its shortcomings. I wouldn't mind if it was excised from the series because, as stated several times before, it curb stomps Fusion into dust in a number of ways and Fusion is a much better game.

[Mop it up]

I also enjoyed Metroid Other M for what it is (except most of the story), and I can see how the series evolved into this game. I believe that if the Metroid Prime series didn't go in a different direction from the mainline games, this title wouldn't have received such a negative backlash. It's best to treat the Prime series for the spinoff that it is.

[NWR_insanolord]

I still don't get how people think Metroid Prime was different from the old games. Metroid Prime is Super Metroid in 3D.

[Chozo Ghost]

I still don't get how people think Metroid Prime was different from the old games. Metroid Prime is Super Metroid in 3D.

Plus it was FPS. Why do you leave that out? That was a drastic change from the originals. The move to 3D was fine, but why did the perspective have to change? That's my gripe with the Prime series.

[NWR_insanolord]

People go on and on about how Metroid is supposed to be about the feeling of isolation, and the first-person perspective does that better than third-person ever could. There's no more shooting in Prime than there is in Super, you just see it from a different angle.

[gbuell]

Nintendo's other two major franchises use a third person perspective. Don't see why all three of them have to. And since all 2D games use a third person perspective by their very nature, it's not really a good argument to point at those as reasons to keep using it in 3D games.

[Nemo]

It's best to treat the Prime series for the spinoff that it is.

Both the Prime Series and Fusion/Other M seem like logical predecessors to Super Metroid, each with a different take. I think the Prime series is more faithful, keeping the sense of isolation and the story telling style the same. But Fusion Other/M adds a lot of story and makes the game more linear.

Personally, in my heart, I think Prime is more of a core Metroid game and Fusion/Other M is more like a spinoff, since I consider Fusion/Other M to be have strayed further from Super Metroid.

But maybe I'm just biased because I had so much more fun playing the Prime games.

[Ian Sane]

Metroid Prime gets the important elements of Metroid right while Fusion (which I like) and Other M only get the superficial elements right.  Sakamoto's post-Super Metroid games are like if another team made a Metroid game with only screenshots from Super Metroid as a reference.

[Chozo Ghost]

People go on and on about how Metroid is supposed to be about the feeling of isolation, and the first-person perspective does that better than third-person ever could. There's no more shooting in Prime than there is in Super, you just see it from a different angle.

That may well be, but the feeling of isolation isn't everything. In Super Metroid you felt isolated enough, especially with the weird foes and the creepy music on every level. You don't need to feel any more isolated than that. What sucked about the FPS perspective in the Prime games was that the game involved platform jumping which is more awkward and difficult when done in a first person perspective. First person is fine for shoot-em-ups like Halo and COD, but that perspective isn't well suited for the Metroid series which features jumping and grapple beaming and other stuff which just doesn't work as good from a first person perspective.

During the N64 era we had many core Nintendo franchises make the transition to 3D such as Mario and Zelda, but all of them remained 3rd person. Metroid was the only franchise which had its perspective changed. I always hoped there would be a 3D Metroid game on the N64 that would be just as good as Zelda OoT or Super Mario 64, but such a game never materialized. It wasn't until the GC era that we got more Metroid games, but even though those were in 3D they lost their 3rd person perspective. So to this day I'm still waiting for that Metroid equivalent of Super Mario 64. The Prime series were okay, but they weren't what I was hoping for, and the less said about Other M the better. So I'm still waiting for that game....

[broodwars]

That may well be, but the feeling of isolation isn't everything. In Super Metroid you felt isolated enough, especially with the weird foes and the creepy music on every level. You don't need to feel any more isolated than that. What sucked about the FPS perspective in the Prime games was that the game involved platform jumping which is more awkward and difficult when done in a first person perspective. First person is fine for shoot-em-ups like Halo and COD, but that perspective isn't well suited for the Metroid series which features jumping and grapple beaming and other stuff which just doesn't work as good from a first person perspective.

Dude, if you think the platforming in Metroid Prime was awkward, go play a real 1st person platforming travesty like Turok: Dinosaur Hunter.  I didn't have any problem with the platforming in the Prime series, as I thought Retro did some smart things with the camera while jumping (as well as making the platforming pretty simple) that made the process feel pretty comfortable to me.  I actually had far more trouble with the Grapple Beam in Super Metroid than I did in the Prime series as well.

[gbuell]

I thought the platforming in Prime was flawless, I don't remember having any trouble at all. It's certainly the best first-person platforming I have ever experienced. Retro deserves loads of credit for that.


Anyway, you said it yourself - Mario and Zelda remained in third person. Why do all of Nintendo's franchises have to do the same thing?

[Ian Sane]

I would like to play Chozo's third person Metroid and I love Metroid Prime.  I think it could work fine and there are even elements in Other M that could be expanded on to make it work.  I don't think it is necessary but it would be cool to see.

They could also use the 3D Zelda gameplay to make it work.  When you're using a bow in Zelda is it really any different?  The only thing is Zelda has no jump button which is a requirement for Metroid.

I could be done and it could be awesome.  Retro ain't making Metroid Prime games anymore and I sure as **** don't want to continue down the Other M path so this seems like the ideal concept to try next.  I even think if the designers went it with a "let's imagine we were doing this on the N64 and no Metroids since Super Metroid had been released" attitude it would be a good approach.

[gbuell]

They could also use the 3D Zelda gameplay to make it work.  When you're using a bow in Zelda is it really any different?

The bow in Zelda switches from 3rd- to 1st-person view and removes the player's ability to move while aiming... hmm, that reminds me of another Nintendo game, but I can't put my finger on it!

[Ceric]

Honestly think its time for the Rest Phase of the Metroid Series again.

[Chozo Ghost]

I know people who tell me they can't play FPS games because it makes them nauseous and gives them headaches. That's probably not a common problem, but apparently it does effect some players, so by restricting a game to first person you are cancelling out a certain demographic of potential gamers.

Not to mention the fact that FPS games do not sell over in Japan at all, so if you have a game in 1st person then it is pretty much guaranteed to bomb over there. If Nintendo wants to boost the appeal of the Metroid franchise in Japan then having it in 3rd person is mandatory. Since Sakamoto is Japanese, he probably would refuse to ever make the game in 1st person anyway, so I'm not particularly worried about that. I don't have any faith in Sakamoto to make a Metroid game of the same calibur as the ones made when Gunpei Yokoi was still alive, but at least I believe he would keep them in 3rd person and that is one thing about Other M I'm not complaining about. Many things suck about the game, but I'm cool with that part of it at least.

As for aiming the missiles in the game, I like what is done in Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas with the VATS thing where you can target different enemies and even different parts of the enemies. When you're in VATs and taking aim the action slows down but it doesn't stop completely. This slowing down means you are less likely to get your ass kicked while you're locking on the way you do in Other M.Fallout 3 is mainly a 1st person game, but it can also be played in 3rd person and the VATS works either way so I don't see how something like that couldn't work in a 3rd person Metroid game either.

But I don't see why it can't just be like in the original Metroids except in 3D. Samus can move with one analog stick and independently aim her arm cannon with the other analog stick, and one button can fire an energy beam and another can fire a missile. What would be wrong with that approach? I admit you lose some pinpoint precision by doing this in 3rd person, but Metroid isn't meant to be played like you're a sniper in COD so first person precision really isn't necessary. The bosses you frequently need to use missiles on literally fill up the entire screen in many cases, so hitting them isn't hard (although hitting their weak spots conceivably could be).

[Ian Sane]

The bow in Zelda switches from 3rd- to 1st-person view and removes the player's ability to move while aiming... hmm, that reminds me of another Nintendo game, but I can't put my finger on it!

Ha!  You're right!  I was thinking more of how the bow works when z-targetting.  Another example is in Majora's Mask where Fierce Deity Link can shoot beams from his sword.
 
I remember back before Metroid Prime had been released and people speculated about a 3D Metroid there was a lot of talk about how difficult it would be to shoot enemies in 3D.  But there was similar talk about attacking enemies at all before Ocarina of Time was released and it showed us how to do it.  Since there are projectiles in Zelda it really isn't that different.
 
Nintendo released Super Mario 64 in 1996 and Ocarina of Time in 1998.  Imagine they made Metroid 64 in 2000.  How would it play?  I think Mario 64 and OoT are good places to look as Zelda has the continuous world and three dimensional combat while Mario has the platforming.  We had the basic Metroid elements done in 3D at that point within those two games, they just had not been put together.
 
Of course that isn't very different from Other M's basic gameplay.  I'm just ditching the auto-aim, the fixed camera angles and the constant requirement to use first person aiming when you can't move.  I still want some first person view because I like gawking at the scenery in 3D games.  But they don't have to make it so that you have to stop and aim while the enemy kicks your ass.  You can just lock-on and dodge and flip around like Zelda but with shooting.  It's kind of like third person Metroid Prime.  Retro knew what they were doing when they lifted the lock-on from Zelda.