Author Topic: Star Trek (Read 22062 times)

TJ Spyke · « **Reply #25 on:** May 14, 2009, 12:11:21 AM »

Quote from: ThePerm on May 11, 2009, 02:04:10 AM

canon can always be reset, Superman used to be raised by the government in a foster home, now he is always raised by the kents

There is a HUGE difference between Star Trek and comics. Comics are well estlabished in their history of being full of contradictions, re-boots, etc. Superman alone has had dozens of different stories. DC has re-set the canon of every one of their comics multiple times.

Star Trek canon has been solid for 40+ years and is quite simple to explain (unlike that mess that is Star Wars, where everything written in books is considered canon unless it conflicts with the movies):
All 5 live action TV series (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT) are canon. TAS is not canon.
The first 10 movies are all officially canon (although The Final Frontier is unofficially non-canon as the writers ignore the events of the movie and have actually written several canon things that contradict stuff in the movie)

There are several things that were introduced in the animated series that later became canon by being used in a live action series or movie (Kirk's middle name "Tiberius" was first mention in TAS but was not considered canon until it was used in The Undiscovered Country).

The new Trek movie may technically be considered canon, but since it is set in a alternate reality it has not bearings whatsoever on the real Trek universe (which I think Abrams may have done to avoid pissing off real Trek fans since re-booting 40+ years of well-established canon would have made him look like a p***k and been the worst mistake Paramount ever made with the franchise). This also means Uhura still has no canon first name.

Having said all that, I will see this movie one way or another just because I am a huge Trek fan (although I am not a big fan of the Kirk era, the other two eras are much better).

UncleBob · « **Reply #26 on:** May 14, 2009, 09:31:56 AM »

>"but since it is set in a alternate reality it has not bearings whatsoever on the real Trek universe"

Wrong. Romulus "Prime" is destroyed and Spock is gone from the "Prime" universe.
Yeah, I'm nit picking, but it could be important later.

Halbred · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:42:32 PM »

It's best for everyone if we all just forget about Enterprise.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:48:30 PM »

Quote from: Halbred on May 16, 2009, 03:42:32 PM

It's best for everyone if we all just forget about Enterprise.

Have you seen the truly excellent 4th season of Enterprise? I mean I liked the whole series but Season 4 of Enterprise is the only season of any Star Trek to be better than any season of Deep Space 9. I guess considering NWR's track record with Star Trek I shouldn't be surprised at that statement, though.

Kairon · « **Reply #29 on:** May 16, 2009, 04:10:35 PM »

Quote from: insanolord on May 16, 2009, 03:48:30 PM

Quote from: Halbred on May 16, 2009, 03:42:32 PM
It's best for everyone if we all just forget about Enterprise.

Have you seen the truly excellent 4th season of Enterprise? I mean I liked the whole series but Season 4 of Enterprise is the only season of any Star Trek to be better than any season of Deep Space 9. I guess considering NWR's track record with Star Trek I shouldn't be surprised at that statement, though.

Wow, really? I gave up on Enterprise actually.. I mean, I WANTED to like it, I wanted to enjoy Scott Bakula, really, but it started out so...

Actually, I'm not much of a trekkie. *Sigh* I don't really dig TNG, but I love the original series' camp, and DS9 was pretty epic. I wanted to like Voyager more since I liked the characters, but *shrug*

As for the movie Star Trek, it was very enjoyable. I have no qualms with "rebooting" franchsies or the writing tricks they used: I wanted to enjoy the movie, not feel weighted down by canon. I felt like it was truly the first great big summer blockbuster. Very well done, and I LOVED the cast they put together! Tons of minor actors who I've been waiting to see get their big breaks, from Uhura's Zoe Saldana (Guess Who) to Bones' Karl Urban (Lotr, Chronicles of Riddick).

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #30 on:** May 16, 2009, 04:18:32 PM »

If you loved the Original Series you'd like Enterprise season 4, they make a lot of references to it, especially the 2-part Mirror universe episode which is made up almost entirely of Original Series references.

TJ Spyke · « **Reply #31 on:** May 16, 2009, 04:25:36 PM »

Enterprise is like TNG. Both series started out really bad (the first season of TNG is horrible and easily the worst Trek season ever) but got better as they went along. I loved the season long Xindi story arc and season 4 was great. It was filled with storylines meant to help bridge the series with the futures shows. We got to see how the humans ended up being oppressed in the mirror universe, the use of augments and Soong's desire to experiment with androids, etc. The finale was pretty annoying though as it was nothing more than a holodeck fantasy being played out by Commander Riker.

I agree that DS9 is the best Trek series.

I guess I am just disappointed that after 5 years with no new Trek material and 6 1/2 years since the last movie that we would get a movie made for Trek fans and not the general audience who have never seen it before. Maybe the movie is good, but I want the next movie to be a true Trek movie. That means following the established canon, and get out of the Kirk era. 4 1/2 TV seasons (3 from TOS and 1 1/2 from TAS) and about 6 1/2 movies (Generations is mostly modern era but some Kirk era) is more than enough. A good movie can follow canon but still fell enjoyable by newcomers.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #32 on:** May 16, 2009, 04:34:02 PM »

The Enterprise finale being just a holodeck simulation is very important because it allowed them to say that that's not what really happened and write some really great novels continuing the story.

And there is zero chance the next movie will go back to the old canon and even less chance that it will get out of the Kirk era, you need to accept that. Making a movie just for hardcore Trekkies just isn't profitable. As I've pointed out quite a few times, they're still writing novels in the old canon if you really want a story there.

TJ Spyke · « **Reply #33 on:** May 16, 2009, 04:50:59 PM »

I didn't say it had to be for hardcore Trekkies. I said it needs to follow Trek canon. It's more than possible to make a Trek movie that follows canon and still appeals to the mainstream audience. Have the next Trek movie be set in the future, that way they can choose to come up with new characters and give them more freedom to create something that is canon without ruining what is already established.

My only problem with the Kirk era is that it is the most boring one in Star Trek. Some of the Kirk era movies are alright (except The Final Frontier), but the TNG era movies are much better and TOS is also the worst live action series. Nostalgia is just blinding people though from that fact. Nobody even gaves a rats ass about TOS until it entered syndication.

I have read some Trek books. I like them, but I want something that is canon. The books are not canon, they are like those "What if?" stories that comics do sometimes.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #34 on:** May 16, 2009, 05:12:22 PM »

See I disagree, I think only one of the TNG movies was good at all (First Contact), and it's not nearly as good as 2 or 6. Star Trek had enough of a following during its run to inspire a massive letter-writing campaign that got the show a third season when it was going to be canceled after two.

I think you should see the new movie before declaring the Kirk era boring, and while it's probably possible to make a canonical movie that will appeal to a wider audience that's not what they're going to do. Star Trek XII is going to be a direct follow up to Star Trek XI and I for one can't wait for it.

The novels may not be officially canon but they do stay within canon and I know there are a good number of Trek novels that I consider canon until contradicted even though they officially aren't, just like some people consider the Animated Series canon even though it officially isn't.

ThePerm · « **Reply #35 on:** May 17, 2009, 01:46:45 AM »

one could say that the kirk era is boring, but it definitely wasn't this go around. I want to see a sequel to this movie. Is it me or are all the good star treks the ones with time travel?

oohhboy · « **Reply #36 on:** May 17, 2009, 02:02:52 AM »

I will have to agree that First contact was the only good (Excellent) TNG movie. The others were average or terrible (Insurrection).

Of the Kirk era movies, I find the first one to be terrible and just comes off as trying way too hard. Final Frontier was an awkward mess. Khan, Voyage home, Undiscovered country are great.

TOS is great because lacking the whiz bang effects you get these days, you focus more on the characters and enjoy the fact it was made on a shoe string budget.

I am glad that the books aren't canon. It avoids the Dragon Ball type BS that Star Wars expanded universe stuff gets into. The EU stuff just gets outright silly.

Of the ST books you get things like the Shatner ones, while enjoyable, you feel glad that they aren't canon. It also frees them to tell stories without a too heavy burden on history.

Stogi · « **Reply #37 on:** May 17, 2009, 03:53:38 AM »

Saw the movie yesterday and I thought it was real tight.

the best part of the movie is when Nero is beating the **** out of Kirk.......

Underling: "Captain, the Vulcan ship has been stolen!"
Nero: *shakes fist* "FUUUUCKKKK!"

I know I know....He was actually saying SPOCK! but it was hilarious. I'm still laughing about it now.

Plugabugz · « **Reply #38 on:** May 17, 2009, 10:13:14 AM »

Quote from: Halbred on May 16, 2009, 03:42:32 PM

It's best for everyone if we all just forget about Enterprise.

Turns out there was a line in the film which referred back to Enterprise, about Admiral Archer's prize beagle.

BlackNMild2k1 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 18, 2009, 04:36:38 AM »

I just got back from seeing this movie, and I can't wait to see the sequel.
I am no trekkie and have never followed a Trek show, althought I have seen a few eps of TNG, Voyager & an ep or 2 of DS9 & ENT.

This movie was good. I think it did exactly what it intended in being aimed at an audience larger than but still including all the Trek fans.
And as someone else already mentioned, I loved seeing a bunch of recognizable actors that haven't quite made it big & this might be just what they needed. I highly recommend this movie to anybody that was never into Star Trek but were even slightly interested in the trailer. Go see it. you won't regret it.

You have no idea how many people I know that have never watched the TV show and would feel uncomfortable being surrounded by trekkies who were really interested in seeing this movie based on the trailer alone. I was one of them, and now I anticipate a sequel. They managed to throw in some things for the trekkies, but a re-boot lets me hop in right from the beginning and not feel like I need to go watch all the past movies to actually understand everything that is going on.

ThePerm · « **Reply #40 on:** May 18, 2009, 03:38:45 PM »

i was at Wal-mart yesterday and they have this best of star trek dvd for 9 bucks. I was considering buying it. I have seen many episodes of the original series, but I'm no expert. The show i got really addicted to was DS9, and of course any time a TNG episode comes on I usually watch. I liked Voyager, but not as much as DS9. 7 of 9 of course was a hottie.

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #41 on:** May 19, 2009, 01:58:10 PM »

The movie was fantastic, and this is coming from someone who has watched every episode EVER of the main series from TOS to Enterprise (Season 4 of Enterprise is one of my favorite seasons EVER of Star Trek).

TJ Spyke · « **Reply #42 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:45:56 PM »

Hmm, I am still torn but I will see it. I guess I am just mad that as a huge Trek fan it looks like we have to continue going without a real Trek movie and that instead we get this alternate universe (it's like in comics were the the live action series and first 10 movies are the real Trek universe and this movie is an alternate reality that is not real). It's bad enough that the 12th movie will stay in this alternate universe and be in the Kirk era, I hope the 13th movie returns to the canon universe and gets out of the Kirk era as well.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #43 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:55:29 PM »

This is most definitely a "real Trek movie". It's better than all but 2 or 3 of the 10 that came before it. The timelines have been changed so many times by the various Treks that I don't get why this is such a huge deal. You also need to get it through your head that they are never going to go back to the original timeline outside of novels and comics, and quit bashing the Kirk era as this is quite a bit different from any Kirk era stuff that came before.

ThePerm · « **Reply #44 on:** May 19, 2009, 04:51:00 PM »

well zelda has lived with two alternate universes!

TJ Spyke · « **Reply #45 on:** May 19, 2009, 05:01:56 PM »

Quote from: insanolord on May 19, 2009, 02:55:29 PM

This is most definitely a "real Trek movie". It's better than all but 2 or 3 of the 10 that came before it. The timelines have been changed so many times by the various Treks that I don't get why this is such a huge deal. You also need to get it through your head that they are never going to go back to the original timeline outside of novels and comics, and quit bashing the Kirk era as this is quite a bit different from any Kirk era stuff that came before.

It's NOT a real Trek movie. By real, I mean it's canon in the Trek universe. I don't know how much of a Trek fan you are, but the timeline has not changed at all in the series and movies. The only thing that doesn't fit in is "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" and that is unofficially considered non-canon as the writers ignore the events. They have done a fantastic job of keeping stuff straight. Why shouldn't I want them to get away from this alternate reality and get back to the real Trek universe? The TNG TV series showed that you can appeal to the mainstream audience while staying within the Trek canon.

I am not bashing the Kirk era, I am just stating my opinion that it is the most boring of the 3 eras. The beginning of the Federation is more exciting and the future of Trek is more exciting.

Stogi · « **Reply #46 on:** May 19, 2009, 05:19:26 PM »

Dude, just watch it.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #47 on:** May 19, 2009, 05:25:43 PM »

But this movie is canon, and so is all the old stuff, and the way they explain both of them being canon is that they occur in separate timelines. Take for instance the Borg; it was establised in TNG in Q Who that that was the first contact between the Federation and the Borg but then there were Borg in Enterprise, which makes sense within canon because the Borg altered the timeline in First Contact when they went back in time to stop Zeframe Cochrane and their sphere crashed in the Arctic.

It's not that I wouldn't like to see more Trek in the old timeline, I just realize that it's not going to happen and will be happy with more of this new timeline. You really need to see the new movie before you call Kirk era Trek boring.

That was a real pain in the ass to type out on the iPhone keyboard.

Plugabugz · « **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2009, 05:33:05 PM »

We were saying above how we wanted a DS9/Voyager wrap up movie. With this film, both of those are extemely unlikely. I also said how a friend stated we won't see anything in the prime timeline post-Voyager in terms of building that story on. Nemesis aside, it hasn't happened. That's even less likely now.

But returning to the prime timeline? That's stone dead not going to happen.

The whole point of rebooting into a new universe like this was to not be hindered by all the events that followed by all the previous movies and series.

TJ Spyke · « **Reply #49 on:** May 19, 2009, 05:55:14 PM »

Quote from: Kashogi Y. Stogi on May 19, 2009, 05:19:26 PM

Dude, just watch it.

I said I am going to, mainly because I am a Trek fan. That doesn't mean I have to like the idea that we are not gonna return to the main timeline anytime soon. I can only hope Paramount (or CBS or whatever the name of the company is now) decides to take this success and make a new series set in the real timeline.

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Author Topic: Star Trek (Read 22062 times)