Author Topic: Who Turned Out the Lights?  (Read 14548 times)

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Offline Rize

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Who Turned Out the Lights?
« on: September 24, 2008, 09:06:37 AM »
<a href=/blogArt.cfm?artid=16729>http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16729[/url]

 <a href="/media.cfm?artid=16729&MedTID=4&medtndx=1"><img src="/media/16729/4/th/1.jpg" align="right" border="0" alt="">[/url] I was recently replaying Metroid Prime 3 when I noticed something peculiar.  Corruption has virtually no dynamic lighting.  What makes it particularly odd is that the first two Prime games, despite running on lesser hardware, had plenty of it.  What makes it odder still is that no one seems to have noticed its absence.    <P>
I always thought that something about Metroid Prime 3 didn't look quite right, but I was unable to put my finger on it until now.  It's a testament to Retro's artists that they were able to cram the world with enough glowing displays, bloom lighting and shiny things that no one noticed that the dynamic lights were turned off.  And when I say no one noticed, I'm not exaggerating.    <P>
I just looked at every Corruption review linked on Game Rankings and not one reviewer mentioned that dynamic lighting was excised from the game.  Many reviewers praised the game's lighting in general, apparently referring to the bloom lighting, particle effects, a few random shadows and psuedo-specular highlights (which to be fair, do come together quite nicely to distract from the lack of dynamic lights).    <P>
If you're not familiar with the technical jargon, let me make the difference between the presence and lack of dynamic lighting perfectly clear.  In the original Metroid Prime, every single shot fired from your arm cannon shed light on the world.  Some weapons (the wave beam or charged shots for example) shed more light than others, but they all did something.  When the power went out in the labs of Phendrena, you could actually navigate by the purple light of your Wave Beam shots as opposed to using the Thermal Visor.  In Echoes the dynamic lights were a bit more subdued for regular shots, but still quite noticeable for charged shots.  I'm not sure if that was an artistic decision or one designed to let Retro ramp up the graphics in other areas, but it probably contributed to our failure to notice the lack of dynamic lighting in Corruption.      <P>
I honestly couldn't quite believe that Corruption had no dynamic lighting when I first noticed it.  I loaded a few different save files and visited every world to see if I could find any dynamic lighting.  Finally, upon starting a new game, I noticed just a bit of dynamic lighting in the opening cinema.  There is a pulsing blue light on the left side of the screen in a brief scene featuring Dark Samus.  There was also a light in the next scene illuminating Samus' Zero Suit as she awakens from hibernation, but that was the last I saw before the gameplay begins.  In the next main scene, there is a conspicuous lack of lighting from the glowing thrusters on Samus' gunship as it flies by a Federation cruiser, just as there is no lighting any time the ship takes off or lands during gameplay (although the gunship casts a fake shadow).  I didn't delve further, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a touch of lighting in controlled situations (morph ball tunnels) and other cut-scenes, but lack of lighting from Samus' beam weapons is rather glaring.  (Note: one of our readers, Ningurl69, has pointed out that you can see some dramatic lighting if you use a morph ball bomb in a dark place, and you can sometimes even get the beam weapons to light up a really dark triangle).<P>
To be fair, although dynamic lights are nice, the GameCube (and Wii) implementation can get messy since lighting is only calculated at triangular vertices and then interpolated across the triangles.  This looks quite alright when triangles are small (such as the ones that make up Samus and her Gunship), but it can look pretty bad for some of the big triangles that make up the game world.  You can see what I mean in the original Prime by performing various tests.  If you shoot the middle of a big triangle, then very little lighting occurs.  If you shoot the corner if a big triangle, the lighting will extend across the whole thing (fading as it gets to the unlit vertices).    <P>
Perhaps Retro thought retaining the vertex lighting would do more harm than good to the game's image since games on competing consoles almost invariably feature per pixel lighting these days.  Admittedly Corruption does have a squeaky clean look that vertex lighting would have sometimes marred.    <P>
In any case, now that I have noticed exactly what was tickling the unconscious part of my optical lobe, I can't fail to notice what's missing, and I have to say I don't like it one bit.  Even though it was messy sometimes, the dynamic lights of the original Prime add animation and vibrancy to the game world that Corruption is missing.    <P>
I wonder if any significant number of people out there will care about this.  I wonder if any game reviewers will feel embarrassed for failing to notice (for my part, I'm inclined to start consulting a technical check list when I review games from now on).  I wonder if anyone at Retro would be willing to comment.  We shall see. <P>
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:02:16 AM by Rize »

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2008, 05:18:26 PM »
I think you forfeit any right to complain about this by taking 13 months to notice it.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2008, 05:27:20 PM »
Well, I found it interesting.  :)

I'll admit I didn't notice the lack of dynamic lighting, but then again I don't pay much attention to graphical details like that (I rarely notice shadows either).
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Offline shammack

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 05:34:24 PM »
It is strange that it was taken out, but I can't say I noticed/care.

I wonder if any game reviewers will feel embarrassed for failing to notice (for my part, I'm inclined to start consulting a technical check list when I review games from now on).

Please don't do this.  We don't need any more Matt Casamassinas.

Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2008, 05:36:57 PM »
I think you forfeit any right to complain about this by taking 13 months to notice it.

Catchy, but I disagree.  The game will always exist as it was 13 months ago, so it's perfectly valid to revisit it and criticize it as necessary.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 05:38:55 PM »
I'm currently evaluating the effort to load the game again and check the validity of the poast's claim.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 05:39:12 PM »
Very interesting. To be honest I never even noticed. I clearly remember dynamic lighting in Prime 1 and 2, but I think Prime 3 rarely had situations where it would've made much of a difference. I'm sure now that you've pointed it out I'll always notice it.
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Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 05:42:06 PM »
It is strange that it was taken out, but I can't say I noticed/care.

I wonder if any game reviewers will feel embarrassed for failing to notice (for my part, I'm inclined to start consulting a technical check list when I review games from now on).

Please don't do this.  We don't need any more Matt Casamassinas.

A list doesn't mean you need to reiterate every item on the list in every review, it just prevents you from failing to consider something when writing a review.

Mr. Jack: define much of a difference?  To the gameplay, sure that's true.  To the graphics and atmosphere, it's actually a pretty glaring hole once you realize it's missing.

As I wrote in the blog posting, I noticed something wasn't quite right all along, but it took me until now to pin down what it was.

Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 05:52:09 PM »
I guess I mean in terms of environments. I don't recall too many totally dark ones in Prime 3 whereas 1 and 2 were full of them. As a result I don't think I ever picked up on its omission in 3. Of course, I am taking this all from memory at this point and it has been a good year since I even touched the game.
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Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 06:39:06 PM »
No there aren't a lot of totally dark areas because that would reveal the lack of dynamic lighting.  They intentionally avoided them I'm sure.  The darkest things get are on the Pirate Home World, and that's the planet on which I noticed the lack of dynamic lighting.

Offline Halbred

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 07:52:38 PM »
Rize clearly hates Nintendo. Also, the PS3 has dynamic lighting!

:-)

But seriously, this was a very interesting post. I'll definately be loading up all three Prime games and experimenting with different shots. I remember that the Plasma Beam and Wave Beam resulted in the most interesting lighting effects in the first game. In Echoes, the Light Beam was just a white Plasma Beam but it didn't paint as pretty a picture. I wouldn't be surprised if the Dark Beam didn't emit any lighting effects at all, seeing as it's dark energy.

What I find interesting is that the Wii is able to run Prime and Echoes with the dynamic lighting intact, so why remove it from Corruption? The graphics in general weren't THAT much better in Corruption that sacrifices would have to be made...my opinion only.
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Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2008, 10:16:37 PM »
Well, corruption runs in wide screen mode, it has more polygons on screen and it has some effects going that echoes and the original didn't have (a ton of "bloom" lighting) for example.  It's possible they couldn't enable the dynamic lights without hurting the frame rate (which they pretty much had to keep at a rock solid 60 fps to match their previous work).

Still you would think they could do some dynamic lights.  I wonder if it wasn't simply an artistic decision to mostly avoid the dynamic lights due to the inferior quality of vertex lighting.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2008, 10:31:03 PM »
Fascinating work, Dave.  I too always noticed something different about Corruption's visuals, but I probably would have never figured out the answer.  I still think it's a beautiful game and plan to play through it again as soon as I have time.
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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2008, 10:48:58 PM »
It makes you wonder if, despite their similar hardware, there are some things that GameCube does better than Wii.
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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 01:00:06 AM »
It makes you wonder if, despite their similar hardware, there are some things that GameCube does better than Wii.

Seriously?  Are you seriously asking this?  The Wii can play every single GameCube game, with the exception of the ones that need a peripheral that cannot attach.  I don't mean to sound critical, but the Wii can do absolutely everything the GameCube can, and more.  There's no doubt about that.  No doubt about that, because the Wii can perfectly play every GameCube game.

Really?

Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 01:06:24 AM »
It makes you wonder if, despite their similar hardware, there are some things that GameCube does better than Wii.

I don't think the Wii contains a copy of the Cube's chips for backwards compatibility (the way the PS2 contained the entire PS1 chip set to provide accurate emulation).  I think the Wii is simply an extension of the GameCube architecture rather than a separate architecture piggy backing on the Cube's design.  In other words, the Wii, at the very least, should be able to access the same hardware lighting the Cube had. 

It's possible that the lighting hardware was not extended beyond the Cube's capabilities which could make it unbalanced and difficult to use in games that have far more polygons than GameCube games.  This is complete speculation unfortunately.  I'm not aware that Nintendo ever revealed the Wii's capabilities as they did with the GameCube (which could do "8 hardware lights" according to Wikipedia).

Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2008, 01:11:13 AM »
Fascinating work, Dave.  I too always noticed something different about Corruption's visuals, but I probably would have never figured out the answer.  I still think it's a beautiful game and plan to play through it again as soon as I have time.

Thanks.  I definitely plan to continue my play through so that I can more fully appreciate the differences.  Then I may well go back and play the original and soak up the dynamically lit goodness!  And get used to the original controls again.  I was surprised to find they felt a bit clunky after playing Prime 3.  Until then, I always thought of them as flawless (and perhaps for a controller they are).

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2008, 01:26:54 AM »
Let's just say Rize jumped the gun on this one:  MP3C has dynamic lighting, and plenty of it.

Dynamic lighting is present:

- Whenever you enter MORPH BALL MODE
- Whenever you detonate a MORPH BALL BOMB
- Whenever you use the POWER BEAM
- Whenever you use the CHARGE BEAM
- Whenever you enter MORPH BALL MODE
- Whenever you use the PLASMA BEAM
- Whenever you use the CHARGED PLASMA BEAM
- Whenever you strike an obvious flat surface using the Wall Jump
- Whenver enemies die in a quick, fiery explosion
- Whenever you enter MORPH BALL MODE

^ all that accounts for the same junk that Prime 1&2 had and accounts for the MAJORITY OF PRIME 3, seeing it takes quite a while to get that precious Green Beam.

The dynamic lighting is much less noticeable in the game since most of the rooms are well-lit by default, especially when there's an object present that's merely an excuse to include so much bloom lighting.

What's messing with Rize's head is the Greeny/Nova Beam itself, which apparently doesn't emit light at all.  I don't know why Retro decided that, and the rest of you probably don't either.  Unless, they're trying to make the point that the Nova Beam is concentrated, directed energy that lacks random "exothermalating" properties, much like lasers that don't largely don't emit light/energy away from its axis of travel until the beam strikes a surfaces and reflects to our eyes.  Power Beam is like little light bulbs and Plasma Beam is like fiery spl**ge, so there's some sense in them emitting light, but I guess the Nova Beam is marketly different and we happen to see it at all cuz it's a video game with powerful new-generation graphics.

If the only save file he loaded up was his near-end-game file, then sure he's not going to see any lighting from the Nova Beam.  The rest of the game is fine.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2008, 01:31:46 AM »
It'll be interesting to see Pro's post rebutted.  If possible.

I wonder how heavy goalposts are.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2008, 01:32:10 AM »
OH LOL I TAKE IT BACK!

NOVA BEAM DOES PRODUCE LIGHTING!
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 01:32:47 AM »
High-five, guys!
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2008, 01:50:01 AM »
"The dynamic lighting is much less noticeable in the game since most of the rooms are well-lit by default, especially when there's an object present that's merely an excuse to include so much bloom lighting."

To supplement that and revise the latter useless paragraph, the intensely bright green color and high-speed particles of the Nova Beam pretty much outshine the subtle triangular lighted surfaces that's easier to see thru tiny Power Beam pellets.  The Nova Beam shots also travel faster, so the lighting is present for a much shorter duration.
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Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2008, 10:41:37 AM »
Let's just say Rize jumped the gun on this one:  MP3C has dynamic lighting, and plenty of it.

Dynamic lighting is present:
- Whenever you use the PLASMA BEAM
- Whenever you use the CHARGED PLASMA BEAM

What's messing with Rize's head is the Greeny/Nova Beam itself, which apparently doesn't emit light at all.  I don't know why Retro decided that, and the rest of you probably don't either.  Unless, they're trying to make the point that the Nova Beam is concentrated, directed energy that lacks random "exothermalating" properties, much like lasers that don't largely don't emit light/energy away from its axis of travel until the beam strikes a surfaces and reflects to our eyes.  Power Beam is like little light bulbs and Plasma Beam is like fiery spl**ge, so there's some sense in them emitting light, but I guess the Nova Beam is marketly different and we happen to see it at all cuz it's a video game with powerful new-generation graphics.

If the only save file he loaded up was his near-end-game file, then sure he's not going to see any lighting from the Nova Beam.  The rest of the game is fine.

I have no end game safe file currently.  The file I loaded his on the Pirate home world with the Plasma Beam.  I tested there, and I went to several different worlds (Bryyo, Elysia and the Federation Cruiser during a new game).

I carefully observed the world geometry in several places and just retested again in for your benefit.  Either my Wii is broken, my copy of Prime 3 is different than yours or something is fooling you.

Let me ask you this, if you go underneath Samus Gunship and shoot bullets past the ship, do you see the bullets lighting up the underneath of the gunship as they travel away?  This should be easily noticeable with a charged shot.  I don't see a single drop of light.

I also tested bombs and morph ball mode.  Bombs make a big pretty explosion with a giant glowing halo effect, but that's not dynamic lighting that's just a glowing texture.

Offline Rize

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Re: Who Turned Out the Lights?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2008, 10:59:23 AM »
Ok, you're somewhat right, but I wouldn't get too excited:

First let me refer you to this part of my blog posting:  "I didn't delve further, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a touch of lighting in controlled situations (morph ball tunnels) and other cut-scenes, but lack of lighting from Samus' beam weapons is rather glaring."

Upon further inspection, in the absolute darkest places in the game, sometimes, some surfaces will light up a little if you use morph ball bombs. [snip]

[edit: Actually let me rephrase that, even in medium lit places you can see the light from bombs.  They are quite bright.  I must have tested those in too bright a local.  But still ...]

[unsnip] Once you've discovered which surfaces light up a little, you *might* get them to make the tiniest flash by using your gun (or if they're too big, you might not).  I finally noticed some light when I used a bomb under the gunship.  The bombs actually produce some decent light, only if you're in a very dark place.  Compare this to previous Prime games however, where all kinds of thing create far more light even in places with existing lights.  Everything I wrote is still essentially true, except any near absolute statements (which I try to avoid).

It does shed light (no pun intended) on Retro's reasoning though.

By reigning in the lighting so tightly, they prevent any vertex lighting artifacts and they keep the frame rate high.  The only problem is that, at least in regard to beam weaponry, they've reigned it in so tightly I thought it was gone completely.  Charged shots look no brighter than normal shots which don't look bright at all.  The only thing I've gotten to light significantly with the plasma beam (and even then it aint much) is the dark pylons on Samus' gunship.  And that was only after I discovered it was amenable to lighting through use of the morph ball bombs.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:20:43 AM by Rize »