Author Topic: Worth a watch/listen...  (Read 9238 times)

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Offline Smash_Brother

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Worth a watch/listen...
« on: August 17, 2008, 11:42:49 PM »
Some NSFW language and imagery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9joAb4XMaUs

I couldn't agree more with his take on the situation.
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Offline Arbok

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 12:01:17 AM »
The cheapest console will run you $300 after an additional controller and a game... umm... so Wii Sports is no longer packaged in?

I also laughed about his saying that the minute those subdivisions from the conglomerates become unprofitable they will turn them loose rather than try to save the industry... considering how in the red the Xbox brand is in general.

To be fair, he has some good points, though, about the haphazardness of only focusing on older consumers in a market that was born from younger ones, which applies to everything.
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 12:58:55 AM »
"Goodbye Capcom, goodbye Konami. No more Solid Snake, no more Master Chief."

I got goosebumps (the good kind) at this part. It gives me hope.

Does he really think Sony and Microsoft give two spits about "having a mascot" It's not about profitability, it's about taking control of your living room, integrating useless gadgets that eff up your daily life, and winning format warz.

If they somehow fail at that and stop supporting the PS3/360, then what? I agree with Arbok, Capcom and Konami aren't going to fold overnight; they would be forced to make smaller, cheaper, quicker-to-develop games (heaven forbid), and Nintendo gets to prescribe a maximum number of games per year from them. Wii owners get tons of games to choose from. Nintendo crushes its opponents and will be powerful like a Stalin and not tolerate people who are bad. Everyone wins.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 01:13:39 AM »
Wow...I actually 100% agree with the guy.

So indirectly, he's giving Nintendo credit for trying to appeal to everyone instead of just focusing on the core. So the one thing gamers hate to death is the one thing might end up saving the industry, or at the very least, on life support. Needless to say, I agree.

He is preaching a bit of doom, but considering the industry has fallen once it doesn't mean it won't happen again...
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 02:58:37 AM »
He's making a point that doesn't need to be made because it's obviously obvious.

Not expanding the market will cause the market to crash. Fuckin' Duh! Great fucking point. I can't wait to hear your next one...

*watches Game Overthinker v6*

Oh God damn it!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 03:00:16 AM by KashogiStogi »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 03:04:15 AM »
He's making a point that doesn't need to be made because it's obviously obvious.

Not expanding the market will cause the market to crash. ****in' Duh! Great ****ing point. I can't wait to hear your next one...

*watches Game Overthinker v6*

Oh God damn it!

It might be blatantly obvious, but considering many fans and the industry are oblivious to it, it needs to be said.

Really, go to sites like Go Nintendo and you'll see a sea of articles about how "Wii is ruining gaming" or "How the 360 and PS3 are shaping the future".

Fans are too caught up on the next gen wars that they don't even stop and think how this could destroy the industry.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 03:19:33 AM »
And? What of it?

Do you really think a "wiser" generation of fans is enough to propel the industry?
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 03:29:05 AM »
And? What of it?

Do you really think a "wiser" generation of fans is enough to propel the industry?

I honestly can't predict what will happen in the next generations of gaming, or this guy for that matter.

For the record, I believe the guy is simply stating a conspiracy theory, theory as in it may happen or not. What I do agree with him is that gaming has become too obsessed over targeting just the hardcore, creating too much titles that are considered "mature" and not enough diversification in games, and could potentially harm the industry in the long run.

It won't happen now since all three consoles are selling splendidly, but who knows what will happen in the future.

Agree with him or not he makes some good points, obvious as they may seem.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 03:34:06 AM »
The only problem with this generation is that it's really boring, the advent of the Unreal engine everything seems so generic. Since MS and Sony upped the ante with graphics and processing power the huge side effect is that all companies developing on the 360 and PS3 will have to spend a lot more money and ultimately charge more for their games.

I agree with the guy though, and this is why Sony is trying make sackboy from Little Big Planet to be the PS3 mascot. Nintendo's plan will always work in the long run because they are trying to appeal to everyone and look how that turned out this generation because Nintendo is trying their hardest to alienate the least amount of people to try to have the biggest potential market and it worked.

Look at Microsoft's marketing plan the 360 is doing well in America but they are struggling in Europe and on life support in Japan. Microsoft kept focusing on the "hardcore" while that may be fine and dandy right now, you sure as hell can bet they will be getting the most diminishing returns come next cycle. Microsoft has arguably the weakest foundations this generation because while they are securing games for 360 it's hard to buy exclusivity for a platform these days since all the companies are trying to play in a safe mode because everything is oh so expensive. And in reality I think the 360 will be long forgotten because there aren't a lot of memorable characters to associate with the 360. And I don't think a space marine with a over sized paintball suit classifies a classic character like mario or sonic.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 03:57:23 AM »
So what your saying is: expanding the market would equal greater returns.

By golly! Your onto something!

In all seriousness, this is econ at it's dumbest. And no offense to that guy, but while he may seem articulate, he shouldn't be spread about as the next wise man. He isn't making a new point.

Now, one could make a new point by taking it one step further by saying non-gaming is the new gaming.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 03:58:56 AM by KashogiStogi »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 05:02:52 AM »
You mean like this?

EDIT: Gah, he way overstretches the definition of a toy. His definition includes TVs, radios, etc but no real definition of the word toy would include those. Besides, Nintendo is showing that you don't need to get 'em while they're young, they're bringing people into the market that have a fairly high age already. While getting children is a cheap way to expand the market it is by far not the only one. Comic books, even with their appeal to older readers, were still a niche. Videogames were too, they basically had their own world that required joining early or you would never understand it. However Nintendo changed the rules and now it's no longer an exclusive club for those who were more or less born into it, now it can expand to anyone, whether they played games before or not.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 05:15:59 AM by KDR_11k »

Offline Caliban

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 10:29:13 AM »
That's why Nintendo almost always wins, and the reason why the DS is so succesful.

In all seriousness, this is econ at it's dumbest. And no offense to that guy, but while he may seem articulate, he shouldn't be spread about as the next wise man. He isn't making a new point.

Now, one could make a new point by taking it one step further by saying non-gaming is the new gaming.

But he's making a point that the majority of the videogame industry is ignoring, which is a valid point in itself whether it is new or not.

Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 11:52:35 AM »
In all seriousness, this is econ at it's dumbest. And no offense to that guy, but while he may seem articulate, he shouldn't be spread about as the next wise man. He isn't making a new point.

It's the parallel to the comic book industry which makes it so valid.

I remember this exact trend he describes and when it happened to the comic book industry. Suddenly, characters couldn't be too dark. And he's right that it's all about insecurity on the part of gamers.

THAT is the lesson here which deviates from simple econ.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 12:24:52 PM »
Quote
So the one thing gamers hate to death is the one thing might end up saving the industry

Save it from a business perspective maybe but if the Wii represents the future of gaming then gaming is dead.  You think Sony and MS don't provide enough variety and Nintendo does?  Nintendo has no variety.  Their philosophy is "every game for everybody".  Every game has to be family friendly.  Every game has to be accessible.  That's not variety.  The only difference between them and the others is right now Nintendo's one dimensional view of videogames is popular with the mainstream and the other view is less so.  But I don't see how everything being sissy marshmellow land provides any more variety then everything being gritty space marine.  Nintendo is just rejecting one group in favour of a bigger one.  No one is truly providing any variety.  Even if Sony and MS leave the videogame market Nintendo won't be unopposed for long.  They're too narrow minded.  They never learned to get the old gamers back, they just targetted a huge brand new group of customers.  There will be a sizeable group that doesn't like what Nintendo has to offer and someone else will clue in and target that group.

Though I'm thinking what has really killed videogames is the Japanese market suddenly deciding that videogames aren't cool anymore.  Japan always made the best games.  It seemed like that market had such intelligently good taste in videogames, while here in the west the attitude was more like one should make crappy games and trick dumb people into buying it.  It was like that trick didn't work in Japan; you HAD to make a good game.  But now it's reversed and in Japan making a good game is actually a BAD strategy.  It's hard for someone from a different culture to understand it but it seems the Japanese are sheep.  Something is either liked by everyone or nobody likes it at all.  It seems like the concept of individual tastes and niche markets doesn't exist.  So when everyone liked good games it was very beneficial but now that everyond likes crap it's really hurt gaming.  A golden age has ended.

I see the comparison to comic books but the thing it it was CRAPPY comics that killed it.  Sh!t like Spawn and Youngblood where it was all flash and no substance.  But no one says that Watchmen or Maus killed comics.  No one accuses any of the comics that were not mainstream accessible but still hold up today as classics as contributing to it.  It's the annual Marvel crossover that gets dumped on and rightfully so.  But it seems like with videogames there's this attitude from those that support Nintendo's ideas that GOOD games were bad as well.  There's this revisionist history crap that seemingly everything from 2000 onwards was crap and thank God Nintendo is dumbing things down!  Complexity is not bad.  Neither is making something that the mainstream doesn't get.  If you're going to point fingers at least point them at the hacks making sh!t games and let go of this stupid attitude that good games shouldn't be made because grandma and your girlfriend don't get them.

Offline Stogi

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 12:40:10 PM »
Sadly enough Ian, in order for gaming to become more popular it has to lose it's complexity. It has to become easier to understand, and thus easier to get into.

However, that fact is still somewhat of a half-truth. The correlation is reciprocal. The less complex games are (yet still fun), the more popular they will inevitably be. The height-limit is set lower, so more people can ride the ride, per say. But, the more popular games in general  are the more complex they can become.

So growth, no matter what the direction or focus, whether you like it or not, is ultimately good for you.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 01:25:31 PM by KashogiStogi »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 01:15:42 PM »
And another hardcore parody ITT. Since when are accessibility and family-friendliness negative traits? You're just bitter you're no longer a non-conformist by liking Nintendo.

Quote
They never learned to get the old gamers back, they just targetted a huge brand new group of customers.

Did you read about this whole disruption thing? The "old gamers" you're talking about are the top of the market, by going in at the top you get killed by the incumbents since they see you as a major threat and have more resources to use. Nintendo had no choice except to go for the bottom of the market first (which the other companies didn't even serve at all and are happy to cede). They then move upmarket slowly (i.e. closer and closer to the "core gamers") and exploit their opponent's willingness to cede the "casual" gamers while focussing more and more on the hardcore. They're eating Sony and MS's market from the bottom up. Had Nintendo aimed for the hardcore first they'd either have failed right away (as they have in the past) or if they had any success MS and Sony would just steal their innovations. By going for the markets the other two consider unworthy they don't WANT to copy Nintendo's approach, they don't WANT to become "casual game companies". Even if they see Nintendo's sales and try to grab them by stealing Nintendo's innovations they'd likely fail because they'd attribute the success to the wrong factors, e.g. motion control (which was really just a way of making games more accessible) or crappy casual games (when Nintendo made sure to make high-quality games that cover new ground).

Quote
Though I'm thinking what has really killed videogames is the Japanese market suddenly deciding that videogames aren't cool anymore.  Japan always made the best games.  It seemed like that market had such intelligently good taste in videogames, while here in the west the attitude was more like one should make crappy games and trick dumb people into buying it.  It was like that trick didn't work in Japan; you HAD to make a good game.  But now it's reversed and in Japan making a good game is actually a BAD strategy.  It's hard for someone from a different culture to understand it but it seems the Japanese are sheep.  Something is either liked by everyone or nobody likes it at all.  It seems like the concept of individual tastes and niche markets doesn't exist.  So when everyone liked good games it was very beneficial but now that everyond likes crap it's really hurt gaming.  A golden age has ended.

As they say, [citation needed]. I don't see anything supporting your story there, care to back it up?

Quote
There's this revisionist history crap that seemingly everything from 2000 onwards was crap and thank God Nintendo is dumbing things down!  Complexity is not bad.  Neither is making something that the mainstream doesn't get.

Complexity is not bad if done right but it's done more and more wrong. Easy examples, Chess and Go are fairly simple games rule-wise but the actual play is sometimes considered the definition of complexity. Now compare, say, Agricola which gives you a shock the first time you open the box and read the materials list. It's manageable once you understand it but most people would have trouble understanding the game even after reading the manual (explaining it in person works better).

The complexity of the game should not be pushed directly onto the player! A PS2 game I got recently, the FPS Black (apparently started selling well once it hit the bargain bin), pretty much a run and gun game, has all face buttons and the dpad on the Dualshock mapped to different actions (of course the shoulder buttons as well). Considering this is a game where you usually just point and shoot, maybe lobbing a grenade occassionally, it's total overkill. Why are there so many buttons? Hell, half the time I forget which button is which (since they're used for fairly rare and often not very meaningful actions like attaching a silencer or adjusting the fire mode on your gun). There's your complexity, tons of buttons that could have been struck from the game along with their functions without much impact!

Good complexity is the kind that comes with a simple interface. Wii Tennis allows hitting the ball in many ways, yet all most people see of it is that you can swing the racket. Oh, right, you people complain that you can't aim your ball with the dpad or analog stick. Because every racket comes with one of those. A game can be very complex without needing tons of buttons because for the game to be complex the thought processes involved must be complex, not the controls.

Of course it's easy to slap more and more afterthought actions on your controller until every last button is full...

Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 01:26:15 PM »
Well Ian I sort of disagree with you. Everyone loses tastes eventually and the only way to regain your market is try to regain your deserters or get a new audience in a way Nintendo is doing both but predominantly aiming for the new audience.

Nintendo knew for a fact that the Japanese audience was shrinking so they needed to shift to a new strategy, so far the 3 cheapest platforms in Japan are doing the best (Wii, DS and PSP) and in each platform there are very good sales with specific pieces of software on each platform like your normal nintendo games on Wii and DS, the training games on DS along with your nintendo staples and the monster hunter style games on PSP.

In a way Sony and Microsoft got burned by making their home consoles very expensive compared to the Wii, not a lot of people would spend more than 300 dollars on a home console especially when your controllers are 50 dollars and your games are 60 dollars it makes an expensive hobby even more expensive.

In a way a lot of games based around the Unreal engine are generic flash and no substance, I wasn't wowed by gears of war and I thought Unreal 3 was a huge disappointment.

I also disagree with you that Nintendo doesn't offer diversity under their belt they have platformers, action games, arcade sports and racing games, strategy games, a lot of multiplayer centric games, RPGs (some). But the Wii and DS has a huge diverse library and in my opinion it's more diverse than the PS3 and 360 library.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 02:10:05 PM »
Why listen to some youtuber when one can read NWR forum posts?
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 02:12:17 PM »
Why listen to some youtuber when one can read NWR forum posts?

Don't they kind of have like... equal credibility? :p
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 02:14:16 PM »
Slander is spoken.  In print it's liable.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 02:16:44 PM »
Slander is spoken.  In print it's liable.
 

But if I just implied that the credibility of an NWR forum poster is equal to that of a youtuber, than how serious could my slander be taken, hmm?
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 02:40:32 PM »
TIP EHT FO MOTTOB

kdr and FlamesofChicken win the thread btw
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 02:57:36 PM »
What about.........about..........

ahh forget it.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 07:34:06 PM »
Save it from a business perspective maybe but if the Wii represents the future of gaming then gaming is dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByPcQBveWOA&feature=related

Yup, he has a reply for this sentiment as well.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline D_Average

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Re: Worth a watch/listen...
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 11:41:35 PM »
Uhh....This dude ever heard of Pokemon? 
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