Topic: FEATURES: User Generated Content: Past, Present and Future

[WindyMan]

This is the talkback thread for the NWR feature, User Generated Content: Past, Present and Future.  Please leave any comments or feedback you have about the feature here.  We love to hear it!

[KDR_11k]

WHY HELLO THERE, CHOCOLATE PUDDING!

[Morari]

I never really got into content creators on consoles. They always seemed so frustratingly limited when coming from a PC background. I spent endless hours making Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, and Unreal Tournament 2004 maps, models, and skins. A few small weapons mods or goofy mutators here and there, perhaps. There was a period where I liked making new skins and objects for The Sims as well, but I can't even manage to have fun with that game for more than a few days now.

[Nick DiMola]

Ah cool, I see this went up. My first feature for the site, hope you guys like it, it is something that has been on my mind for a while.

I personally think User Generated Content will play a huge role in the future of gaming and right now we are just on the cusp of it all.

[Morari]

I personally think User Generated Content will play a huge role in the future of gaming and right now we are just on the cusp of it all.

Perhaps console gaming. As I already mentioned, user generated content has been a popular part of the PC world since at least the DooM days, if not longer. Anything before that probably wasn't too mainstream (as far as gaming goes) however.

[Nick DiMola]

I personally think User Generated Content will play a huge role in the future of gaming and right now we are just on the cusp of it all.

Perhaps console gaming. As I already mentioned, user generated content has been a popular part of the PC world since at least the DooM days, if not longer. Anything before that probably wasn't too mainstream (as far as gaming goes) however.

Well there is a certain duality to UGC on the PC. Often times the tools are
a) Not included/incorporated into the basic presentation of the game
b) Have huge learning curves that require in depth knowledge and considerable amounts of time
c) Not easily shared with large amounts of the community that plays the game.

Of course on the other hand the tools are far more advanced and can do tons more, but I don't think that is optimal. Getting the best UGC means everyone needs to be able to use it, and it needs to be well streamlined into the core presentation of the game.

Consoles are the perfect launching point for this type of content because they simplify the tools, allowing the user to build something that is seemingly complicated in a relatively short amount of time, and easily share it with all the users, regardless if those users are interested in creating something themselves. Think how quickly you can make a Brawl level, there is massive potential there. In 5 minutes you can create a play experience in the game and share it with little to no effort. Find me a PC game that can do that.

Also, I wouldn't exactly call modding/creating PC content popular. A very niche crowd engages in the creation and an equally niche crowd enjoys it. Like I said, I'm not knocking the PC method, I personally loved creating Half Life mods/maps back in the day, but I think it has more potential and a bigger future in console gaming than it has ever seen on the PC.

[ShyGuy]

Pretty extensive article covering the Nintendo platforms UGC.

I remember wasting hours with excite bike's track builder.

[Morari]

I don't disagree that it will become more and more prevalent as consoles march toward the future. I don't think consoles will ever be able to muster anything that is seriously interesting however. At best you get generic looking levels pieced together from premade objects. That can be fun at its core, but it's never going to stand on its own as many mods for PC games have. Brawl's level editor is a good example of just that as well. It may be easy to use, but that comes at the cost of it being so limited that it's almost not even worth using. I don't see this changing much, as consoles simply do not have the input methods and flexibility that personal computers do. This concept may be improved, but it will remain essentially the same. Just look back at the aforementioned Excite Bike. You are doing the same thing there as you would be doing in Tony Hawk or Brawl. You choose pieces and assemble them, never straying too far from what the developers intended.

I will, however, disagree with your bullet points.

a)Many high profile PC franchises have been including map/scenario editors with their games for years and years now.They may not be built into the game's menu, but they do come included.
b)Many editors are fairly simplistic, especially if you just want to make a quick level. You can even go a step further and peak at Warcraft of Starcraft's editors. Those are quickly mastered, though tend to be more in line with that console editors are. While I certainly don't expect anyone to be able to pick up Radiant and make an awesome level in fifteen minutes, it isn't exactly rocket science either. It's very doable. You put a little more effort into these types of editors because you are literally using the tools that the developers used. You're not limited in the least.
c)Depending upon the game, this could be true. Most major titles have fairly centric fansite (or even official communities) that share such things however. Junk isn't automatically downloaded onto your system like in Brawl, but I wouldn't want it to be anyway.

Now, while mod creation is generally reserved for a niche group, I don't think that those who partake in the end result are as small as you think. Something as simple as downloading a new player skin or map is far more common than I believe you are leading on. It may be different with Half-Life, I don't know though, I was never much into that scene. Now, while I agree that user generated content will become more and more popular on consoles, I don't think that it will become grander than it has been on the PC for over a decade. Consoles are simply too limited to exceed their own boundaries. Besides, Microsoft would want you to charge everyone for any mods you make and give them a cut of the profits.

[Nick DiMola]

Well to counter your counter

a) I think that not building them into the game's menu is a mistake. Many people don't realize they are there, so they never really look into it.
b) I agree that there is of course a limit to the amount of creativity that can be had with a limited level editor, however, refinement of the tools could eventually lead to some pretty decent tools that go a long way. The glamor and glitz of fancily textured walls/items might not be that important if the level design is adequately done. I think the simple tools in Brawl feel limiting at times, but on the other hand I have made and played countless creative levels that I would have never experienced otherwise. Sure they are visually unappealing, but the fighting experience that can be had on them is unrivaled
c)I agree fansites exist for certain games, and some garner a strong following, but a menu option such as "Download User Content," is infinitely more accessible and logical. It requires no searching and is accountable because it is hosted on an approved Nintendo (or whoever) server. The stuff being automatically dumped on your memory in Brawl is garbage, I mentioned that in the feature, we need a more robust system that allows users to more tactfully select what THEY want to play rather than what Nintendo thinks is best. The community aspect of UGC on consoles is probably the one place that could use the most improvement.

I think that there are of course limits that will always exist for console level editors, but the limits don't have to be in the realm of gameplay. For me personally that is all that matters, the beautiful veneer can be nice, but ultimately even with a nice veneer a bad level is a bad level.

[Morari]

Fair enough. I really would like to see the ideas grow and become more, I'm just pessimistic as to what will actually come of it. I did create one level in Brawl that I'm awfully found of and is the only one saved to memory. It still doesn't quite compare to the original levels, but all of them have so much going on that it'd be near impossible to provide an accessible tool set for.

Just off the top of my head though, I know that Unreal Tournament 2004 does have a menu option to checkout and download new stuff. I don't remember it working too well though. So there you go.

[King of Twitch]

Nongamers will probably kill these features in the long run. Too complicated.

[KDR_11k]

I think we have two different groups of UGC desirers: One want it to be accessible and available to everyone while the others want more power and control. For accessibility, yes, editors built into the console game make sense but for power they don't. Even if you want to make them powerful you'd have to create replacements for software that had huge dedicated teams working on it for at least half a decade.

You can fairly easily make an editor that lets people create something but letting them create everything the engine permits is hard. Your Brawl levels lack graphics but can you script interactivity like in the premade stages? Can you have the battlefield morph depending on some factors? Can you create events like rising lava? Prettyness is not the only thing your levels can't do.

It gets worse when you try to make more "irregular" things. A level can be divided into tiles but what about a character? Could you remake Captain Falcon for Brawl?

If you were wondering, that screenshot I posted is of a user-created mod (Kernel Panic) on a user-created map (Marble Madness) for a user-created engine (Spring RTS). The engine was originally made to implement the game Total Annihilation. One of the KP factions was done without that much rule bending (so it might have been possible with a good ingame editor) but the second and third are making use of the scripting language the engine offers to change the rules of the game. I've made even weirder games on the engine by using that scripting language.

Let's face it, when coding gets involved WYSIWYG goes out the window. Without coding you won't be able to change the rules of the game and ultimately won't be able to create as much varied UGC. If you want UGC to prolong the life of the game a bit before it goes into a corner and stays there, sure, go with the easy editor approach. But if you want UGC to revive and reform the game, possibly creating entirely new games (Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, Red Orchestra, Tower Defense, ...) you need to give the users full access to all tools.

BTW, was Blastworks listed? That one supposedly has a pretty powerful editor though it's of course still limited in the shapes it can create (and how efficiently it can do so). I wonder if it gives access to the full power of BulletML?

[Galford]

First off nice article, it was easy to read and got to the point.

You kinda left some stuff out.
In Japan there was Family BASIC, a version of BASIC for the Famicom.
Here's a link...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Basic

Also the N64 had Perfect Dark and Deadly Arts.
While you couldn't make new boards, you create scenarios and add bots to just about any multiplayer map in the game.

Deadly Arts had a create a fighter mode.

Flip side,
Nintendo has never been one to embrace user made content.
Once they believed the MSX to no longer be a threat in Japan, they dropped Family BASIC.

While the N64 had got Perfect Dark and Deadly Arts, the PSX got Fighter Maker and RPG Maker.  It was available for a short while but Sony had the Net Yaroze program.

On the Gamecube you had Time Splitters and
While the PS2 and Xbox had Time Splitters along many, many other titles that you could create custom content on.

Now comes this generation, Sony has Linux available to everyone, MS has a full blown homebrew program that rivals Atari from the 80's and Nintendo has???
Nintendo has the ability to make custom web pages for the Wii.

Nintendo has never been a fan of homebrew and this falls further behind on this front every generation.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Interesting article. One thing I want to mention is while the PC has tremendous level editors (amongst other creation tools for the mod world) they are not user friendly for the most part. What consoles have been opening up is creation that about anyone can get into and create even if they may not be the most technically savvy. With that said, I am a bit dissapointed in the lack of advancements in user created content on consoles.

Nintendo, especially, is disappointing in this aspect since they help push this starting with the NES. Since then there really hasn't been many "Wow that is a unique creation mode!", instead we get a relatively bare bones, block placing, SSB:B creation mode and the ability to draw stuff on T-Shirts in Animal Crossing. The potential is there but I feel Nintendo has been dropping the ball in making more head way. At least Halo 3 tried to push things a bit but still I feel there is so much more room for improvement. The Wii remote is perfect for pushing this farther and yet we are still limited in creation besides a select few games like Boom Blox (Which, to be fair, has a robust, but perhaps a bit too complex creation tool) and Blast Works.

[animecyberrat]

Nintendo gave us Mii's what more do you want from them?

[KDR_11k]

GP: The problem is that user-friendlyness usually results in tile placing level editors as making actual 3D shapes is hard. There are simple 3D editors but they are clunky to use and really demonstrate why the professional packages are as complicated as they are, it's just way easier to work when you have all kinds of powerful tools at your disposal that let you do things in 2-3 actions that would need 10+ otherwise.

[GoldenPhoenix]

GP: The problem is that user-friendlyness usually results in tile placing level editors as making actual 3D shapes is hard. There are simple 3D editors but they are clunky to use and really demonstrate why the professional packages are as complicated as they are, it's just way easier to work when you have all kinds of powerful tools at your disposal that let you do things in 2-3 actions that would need 10+ otherwise.

Good point, but don't you think there is still room for customization in games without getting overly complex? I understand that pulling stuff around with the Analog stick is cumbersome (We'll see how LittleBigPlanet handles it) but I would think the Wiimote would open up some possibilities. Boom Blox, even though slightly complex, shows what can be done (I hate you EA for not allowing us to download custom levels from a community) and from what I heard Blast Works is pretty impressive in its flexibility. It seems some companies are pushing the feature while Nintendo seems to be taking steps back, which is kind of sad.

[Nick DiMola]

I honestly think that if Nintendo threw their weight behind UGC we would see some editors fall out that were truly intuitive.

The way I see it, the Wii Remote essentially gives you a hand within a 3D World, with simple intuitive motions you should be able to turn the world with a flick of the wrist and pull it close to you or push it away with decent accuracy. The tricky part from the programmers side is making it so that you can do enough but you can't do too much.

The other part that I think everyone underestimates is community. Even if the tools are somewhat basic, people will still figure out amazing things to make with them (Miis). If there is a well integrated, well designed distribution channel you are in the money. Even if that effort extended play time of a game for a couple of weeks or a single month, I would say that the efforts were successful. Naturally, the bigger the game, the bigger the community, which in turn means a more extended play experience from UGC.

[EasyCure]

I don't want to get into a debate on whether or not creation features on consoles are too simplified or not, i just want to chime in and say i love games that utilize them.

i remember when i was pretty young, i disliked wrestling but ended up buying both WWF Attitude and No Mercy for my 64 because i loved using the creation modes at a friends house when he'd force me to play. No Mercy was awesome when it came to customization. I remember having a million characters and moves.

The THPS games were addictive for me as well. The create-a-skater modes weren't all that great until the THUG titles but i loved creating skateparks. When THUG came out that introduced board customization, then THUG2 let you make your own stickers/graffiti designs. I loved it so much. I made some pretty slick designs in that game, probably the most of any of those other games.

Oh, and you cant talk about UGC w/o talking mario paint. That was another game i'd played at a friends house first, then decided to get. Of course at the time i was in 2nd grade and had no real means of finding out about new games other then begging my mom to take me to Toys R Us to see what new stuff they had, and even then i didnt have a means to try the game. Seeing it in action sold me to the idea. My brother and i would make compisitions daily in the music creator, and stupid/funny little animations.

*sigh* I'm still waiting for a new Mario Paint/Artist game..

[KDR_11k]

I don't think Mario Paint counts, while it let you create stuff it didn't have any game you could play on that custom stuff. It'd be like talking about UGC in MS Word. Of course it has that, it's an application!

[animecyberrat]

What about RPG's they usually let you customize your character extensively. Well not the Square-Enix ones but a lot of them do. Os ir the UGC limited only to levels and stuff, not characters?

[KDR_11k]

"Customizing" your character with items is limited to the items you find and usually done in order to improve your character's stats. UGC is mostly about creating something new to play with instead of improving your stuff in the game (or would SimCity and Harvest Moon count as custom city or farm generation tools?). Another notable difference is that UGC is usually restricted only by data limits, not in-game constraints, you don't need to spend ingame money to design your level.