Author Topic: How to Manage Your Forums  (Read 23485 times)

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Offline Crimm

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How to Manage Your Forums
« on: June 05, 2008, 02:56:50 AM »
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16094

  After the fall-out from Ubidays and after the fall-out from Capcom unveiling Spyborgs, we've seen two distinct ways to react to detractors in your midst.  Whenever a corporation opens a forum they need to be aware of the risks that entails.  Ubisoft clearly was not, where as Capcom was.    


Nintendo fans were understandably disappointed with Ubisoft's showing at their annual media event, Ubidays.  While the Xbox 360 and the PS3 got new iterations of The Prince of Persia and Beyond Good and Evil, the Wii and DS got games like "Petz Dogz Wii" (which might only have "Wii" in the title because the screenshots look similar to Nintendo DS title Nintendogs) and "Imagine Teacher."    


Some of their disappointment made its way to Ubisoft's public message board.  The thread a moderator had created just for Ubidays 2008 became inundated with upset owners of Nintendo systems.  Much of it was indignant, much of it questioned Ubisoft's decision to "forsake" the Nintendo systems, and much of it just seemed depressed.  There were the usual animated gifs and clever catch-phrases, like calling Ubisoft "Ubicrap," that one would expect from an Internet message board.    


Capcom's forum uprising came after they lifted the veil on their newest Wii title, Spyborgs.  There had been substantial hype, much of it not directly the fault of Capcom, regarding the unveiling of the new title.  The often overly passionate Nintendo crowd is prone to expecting the world.  When the title was announced, and the first screenshots released, the response was mild disappointment.  The images released did not feature the graphics one would expect from a "big" title.  It is important to note that the game is not being released until 2009.  However, that didn't stop people from saying, at Capcom's message board, that it looked "cheap."    


When the uproar made its way to Ubisoft's message board there wasn't an immediate response.  However, after a day or so of dealing with it, one of the Ubisoft "UK Community Managers" (essentially a moderator) posted the following:    


"The true of the matter is this, the Wii is a very different console than what most games developers are used to. The Wii has managed to make a huge success from having games on it that just would not work on a conventional console. The Wii has also managed to increase the market share to a huge group of people that are not that interested in gaming. With Wii Sports, Wii Fit and all manner of games built for family play, Nintendo know who they are marketing for and it is not die hard gamers. If you look at the most successful Wii games, they are not amazing new AAA games, they are predominantly family orientated games/alternative games.    


Looking at the current UK games sales for Wii Wii Sales Link, there are not that many traditional games in the top 30. Trends are changing and not everyone wants a new action game, FPS game or epic RPG, sales of the Wii proves that the majority want something different.    


Parents who are buying a console for their children do not really care about Prince of Persia, Rainbow Six or Far Cry on the box, they want games that are going to be good for their children and not get them in the local newspaper. Why else would games like Brain Training/Wii Fit/Mario Party sell in the millions if people wanted hardcore games?    


Check the Nintendo DS figures in the UK as well. DS Sales Link. Notice whose name is listed there a few times but also notice which games are listed? We make games that will 'hopefully' sell to a selected audience. We are a business after all, but Nintendo know which people are their market, just as Sony and Microsoft know who their markets are. Ubisoft have always been aimed at the more mature market (Look at our back catalogue) and in the last few years have started venturing into the casual gaming market. This is because that market now exists, thanks to the rise in popularity of the Wii and DS. The Wii is still a new console and it still has plenty of time to grow, Nintendo know this and Ubisoft know this.    


As for Shaun Whites on the Wii, can you at least wait to get some more information and gameplay on it before binning it? Most people have seen a few screenshots and they already hate it because it does not look as good as the 360 etc but to damn a game just because of looks, and without actually playing it is just silly. All I have seen is various forums doing childish Photoshop screens, at least wait to see the game face to face before turning it into a humorous gif."
   


There are a few problems with his response.      


First off, it can easily be read as sounding like "all the people who own a Wii are kids, whose parents have to buy their games."  Clearly this is not true, and is insulting.  Even if that was not his intent, you would have to be blind to not see it being read that way.    


Secondly, it has been pointed out that the top selling games on the Wii are, by and large, not casual titles.  Ubisoft's top selling Wii titles are, in fact, Red Steel and Rayman Raving Rabbids.  I hold neither game in especially high regard, but they're both million sellers.  However, the sales of Red Steel, The Legend of Zelda TP, Mario Galaxy, and Super Smash Bros Brawl all reject the argument that there is no market for "hardcore" games.    


Third, he misstated the arguments that the graphics of Dogz and Shawn White Snowboarding (also shown at Ubidays) spawned.  The general theme was not the graphics were below the level of the 360, but rather that they were below the capabilities of the GameCube.  The Wii is significantly more powerful than the GameCube, and the theme was that there is no excuse for lazy graphics.    


Lastly, he positioned himself as an Ubisoft employee.  He used "we" repeatedly, and came off as if he was being "official."  His position as "official" was amplified by the simple fact he is Ubisoft UK Community Manager.  The fact of the matter is that he is paid by Ubisoft, by his own admission.  However, he does not work there.  His posts are not official.    


His posting, which can be viewed as inflammatory, spread across the Internet via forums and blogs.  It was as if the dam burst, and upset users flooded into Ubisoft's forums to respond to his post, which was often represented as "official" on the site these new posters came from.  After 22 additional pages of people dissecting his post the thread was locked by a different "UK Community Manager" for being off topic and no longer "constructive."    


As it stands, users are still posting in various threads, wondering when Ubisoft will issue a response to the criticism.  To date, no official statement has been made, about any of the issues raised.    


Capcom faced substantial less of an uproar, but responded much more proactively.  In a thread that asked if Capcom was content to make "kiddie games" too, in a not too tacit reference to Ubidays (which had only occurred a few days earlier), there was an almost immediate response.  Christian Svensson, Capcom's Corporate Officer/Vice-President of Strategic Planning & Business Development, responded by stating:    


"Dark Void and Spyborgs are the two biggest titles our office is working on. To say that either of them isn't an incredibly high priority for the company, with major resources against them would be a pretty big misunderstanding of the reality.    


The team working on Spyborgs is an all-star team of some of the best character action game developers in the world, backed by us. Have faith.    


This is a game that is incredibly thoughtful in its design, incredibly varied in its mechanics and will be incredibly fun to play (both alone or with a buddy/son or daugther/father or mother) when its done.    


The initial reaction here I swear is the EXACT reaction so many of you posters had when we first revealed Zack & Wiki. Somehow, Z&W is now a posterchild title for the Wii in your eyes. Mark my words... you will feel exactly the same way about the level of quality in Spyborgs when it is done."
   


This was an official response from someone at Capcom.  It's hugely important that he had the faith to come in and assure the posters that this game will not only be good, but that it is high in their list of priorities.  His other posts, from the same thread, compared the game to Ratchet and Clank (noting that there are members of the R. and C. team on Spyborgs), and offered additional insight into the game's origins.  He even empathised with Wii gamers, referencing his previously stated distaste for Wii shovelware.    


The difference in approach is staggering.  Ubisoft was content to do nothing, until one of their Community Managers stuck a stick in the hornets nest.  Even then, Ubisoft refused to do anything.  Capcom, however, issued a quick and official reply.  They promised a good product, and that the people who play it would view it as the next Zack & Wiki.    


Ubisoft very well may have alienated some of their market more so than simply releasing these games would have already.  Not only that, it brought extra scrutiny on games like Petz Dogz, which are clearly lacking in quality.      


Capcom may have managed to sell people on the game before the consumers even know much about it.  While the game may ultimately disappoint, it's safe to say that many people (myself included) are more optimistic about Spyborgs than they were prior to reading these posts.  If it's true that Capcom is staking this much in the game then it could very well be great.  The somewhat lacking screenshots aren't forgotten, but they're somewhat forgiven.    


That's the double edged sword of operating a message board.  If you hope to use it to promote your product you can't leave it unattended.  Using it to communicate with your consumers can endear them to you, but saying the wrong thing can alienate them.

James Jones
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Offline Crimm

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 04:02:12 AM »
YES!  Longest blog post.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 04:15:36 AM »
I thought I was going to have to take a nap in the middle, but it was a great post. It's a great analysis of both situations.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2008, 10:42:38 AM »
YES!  Longest blog post.

A third of it is made up of quotes.  I don't think you get full credit.  Sorry.

Nice analysis, though.  This is the first time I've heard that the Ubisoft post was just by a glorified mod, which makes me feel slightly better, but the lack of any official response is still disappointing.  I wonder if that guy managed to hold on to his position.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2008, 11:57:30 AM »
Let's throw stones at glass houses. Maybe we can hit a Mockingbird!

I think Babyz Party got even more rancour

Offline Crimm

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2008, 01:41:43 PM »
Babyz Partie got a different kind of rancor.  It does go to the "Wii is for babies," but it isn't a game that one only needs to see a screenshot to know that it is bad.

One only has to see the shots from Petz Dogz Wii to know that it wont be good.  Also, most of the animated gifs are of Dogz.
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Offline Rize

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2008, 03:25:18 PM »
"Nintendo fans were understandably disappointed with Ubisoft's showing at their annual media event, Ubidays. While the Xbox 360 and the PS3 got new iterations of The Prince of Persia and Beyond Good and Evil, the Wii and DS got games like "Petz Dogz Wii" (which might only have "Wii" in the title because the screenshots look similar to Nintendo DS title Nintendogs) and "Imagine Teacher.""

Understandably?  This disappointment stems from the fact that Nintendo actively decided to try their very hardest to become "pop" and they succeeded.  Why should anyone waste time making a "hardcore" game when they can make tripe that will likely make just as much or more money?

As an NWR editor I hate to say it, but Nintendo is all but dead to me as a console.  I love my DS and I own a Wii... but if Wii2 was being released tomorrow I don't think I'd buy one (especially if the next Zelda was being simultaneously released for Wii and Wii2 with essentially the same graphics as a Wii game and Metroid Prime 6 and Super Mario Universe were pushed back a year).  Sure, I'd probably get one eventually (probably; but truth be told I hate the Wii controller).  Actually I take that back; I'd buy 10 of them and sell them on eBay.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 03:28:21 PM »
Note to self: don't read any Wii articles posted by Rize.

Offline Crimm

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 03:56:32 PM »
I don't think you can claim that you can release any tripe and it will sell.  WiiFit and WiiSports both clearly were the polished results of a high level of effort.  Games that have tried to stick to that mold often have less effort expended on them because they are "casual."

A good game takes effort, regardless of market.  I think there would have been less disapointment if the games they HAD shown were not in the sorry state they were in.  Besides, "hardcore" titles do and have sold on the Wii.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 04:50:59 PM »
I think we need to distinguish between making back a piss poor budget and selling well. The vast majority of Wii games that sell well are quality titles, at least lately. I know people like to throw Carnival Games in there (Which I personally enjoy) but the fact remains that it is more of an anomaly then the rule. Anyway great post Wormhead!
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Offline Djunknown

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2008, 12:04:50 AM »
Quote
This disappointment stems from the fact that Nintendo actively decided to try their very hardest to become "pop" and they succeeded.

While its true that Nintendo has been hyping WiiFit to no end, they still release titles to satiate hardcore players. I may not care much for Wii Fit, but Nintendo still made Mario Kart, which I'm playing the hell out of. Whatever the next big title for the expanded market, there will be a title hardcore players will eat up.

In Ubisoft's case, they've announced Dogz and Babiez, but no port of Beyond of Good and Evil 2/Splinter Cell/ Tom Clancy's XXX to go with it. I'm not all up in Ubisoft's grill yet, since E3 isn't too far off, where I'm positive we'll hear something about Red Steel 2. But yeah, bad damage control on Ubisoft's part.

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2008, 01:39:48 AM »
Great analysis, Crimm.  Regarding Ubisoft, I think it's a combination of the wrong emphasis being placed on their low-budget casual games vs. high-budget casual games (RRR3) and also a perceived imbalance of announcements.  They probably are working on an improved Red Steel 2 and a Wii-specific Prince of Persia, but those games weren't shown at this event, while similar games were announced for other platforms.  So it's no surprise that Nintendo fans concluded certain things about Ubisoft's priorities and their plans for the Wii.  That is Ubisoft's fault.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2008, 02:11:04 AM »
That's the really surprising thing too.  It wouldn't have been hard to pay Red Steel 2 some lip-service.  The game has been in development for at least a year, they had to have something they could say about it.
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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 03:23:14 AM »
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Offline Shift Key

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 04:20:36 AM »
This disappointment stems from the fact that Nintendo actively decided to try their very hardest to become "pop" and they succeeded.

Holy hell, Batman. Did the PS2 get the same treatment last gen because it was "the popular one"? It sure didn't. In fact, it got a massive library of quality third party games.

Let's do a quick and dirty comparison between the two and see if anything stands out:

The PS2 wasn't the superior hardware platform last gen.
The Wii isn't the superior hardware platform this gen.
Verdict: Nothing different here. Except for the fact that the PS2 always got at least some attention when it came to new games, perhaps it was due to reputation. Most of the time, it was the focal point. And now the Wii, despite dominating sales for the last year at a pace greater than the PS2 could muster, has to fight with the two other consoles for any attention at all. You may argue that what is coming out at the moment is suitable, but when a PR goon spends a whole lot of time telling me why I should be grateful to see Shaun White's on Wii, let alone any support from a major third party like Ubisoft, it sounds like they're deliberately avoiding the Wii.

The PS2 wasn't a huge change from its predecessor - the controls were the same, the functionality set was roughly the same.
The Wii changed a lot of things in terms of how you can play a game. It also included support for its predecessor's peripherals and games (remember the last time Nintendo did something like that?)
Verdict: Is this such a big issue? I guess it depends on your perception of the situation. Mario Kart has shown that you can play a Wii game however feels comfortable, its just more work for the developers. Sure, there are games like Wii Fit which require brand new peripherals (sup Rock Band), but I see this as breaking out from the conventional mould of games - I haven't got it yet (hell, I still haven't played Mario Kart in almost a fortnight) but I'd consider it if I had some time available.

The PS2 lived and died by its third party games - that's how it won the PS1 gen, and it continued on as normal.
The Wii could probably survive on Nintendo's own games - look at the Gamecube.
Verdict: I think this is the crux of the issue. Last generation, third parties didn't need to worry about the Gamecube because they had a bigger pool of users attached to Sony's consoles. This generation, the largest pool of users is attached to Nintendo's white box. They know (or are becoming familiar) with Nintendo's brand and games. If I was a third party, I'd see two choices in front of me.
1. Throw significant resources (remember how big Nintendo's development teams are) and attempt to build a game that stands side by side with Nintendo's own titles. High risk, because if it doesn't stack up to their quality, its likely the hardcore Nintendo fans are going to be pissed and will steer clear of it.
2. Take the easy way out. Make a simple, basic game with a big hook, and target a specific group of gamers. The budget won't be big, so the risk that the money is wasted is negligible. If it makes some money, great. Set that aside for a real project.

That's just how I see things, but I do believe that it contributes to this problem regarding third parties and Nintendo coexisting in any sort of environment.

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2008, 07:48:06 AM »
I agree with Shifty completely here, but even the "low budget" games (Zack/Wiki) come out great simply because of a well executed idea.

Offline Shift Key

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2008, 08:09:52 AM »
I agree with Shifty completely here, but even the "low budget" games (Zack/Wiki) come out great simply because of a well executed idea.

I'm speaking in generalities regarding budget games. From what I've seen, Zack and Wiki seemed like a polished but short affair - not that there's anything wrong with it.

Offline Deguello

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 09:20:58 AM »
Another big flaw with many third parties today is some believe simply because a platform requires more effort to make a game on, then that platform deserves more effort.  This is not historically applicable nor accurate.

For example, please look at the muchly-hyped MGS4.  I think the series got along fine on the PS2, don't you?  Nobody called and clamored for it to be on Xbox (despite actually having been ported once) and definitely nobody said the PS2 was a "low budget" console, especially after launching with Fantavision.

I remember the PS2's large userbase meant it got the most third party support.  Now apparently the Wii's large userbase is the reason it ISN'T getting the most third party support.  This generation has been confusing.
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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 11:45:10 AM »
This console cycle is borked.  I love it.

Each E3 or each big Nintendo release that goes by is like a new WWII battle milestone in Band of Brothers: landing on Normandy, seizing Carentan, pushing through Bastogne, seizing Foy, then cleaning up shop at the Eagle's Nest.

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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 01:38:46 PM »
while I see and agree with most of your points Shift Key, you seam to be forgetting that PS1 *was* also a massive success and it was expected that Ps2 would follow, so it got more attention out the door.


It would seam that going in to the PS2 era, developers had first off Dreamcast titles to port over right away, second off they had the reassurances that Ps1 fans would pick up a Ps2 and when the sales ook off right away they knew that was the console to back up.


Now With the Wii it is not so easy, coming in the GameCube was dead last the previous gen and that followed the N64 which was also a disappointment for  3rd parties as well. So going into Wii, developers were faced with a few hard choices, they knew that Nintendo was going to have their usual fans buy the system and that meant that Nintendo's games would still be successful and would be a threat to 3rd party sales. They did not know that Wii would take off right away and by the time developers started to realize that, they were already over their heads in developing Ps3 and 360 titles because they were expected to perform better than they are.



So it does make sense that as of RIGHT NOW the Wii is the best selling console and it is a sure fire system to get your games on, but it takes a year or more to make the types of games everyone is begging for so 3rd parties either have to start swtiching resources over and focus on the Wii or they have to just keep going the route they are and hope for the best. I think that it is more or less they invested heavily in the Ps3 because PS1/2 were so sucessful it was assumed Ps3 would be too, and now they feel the need to get a return on that investment by betting that if they continue to throw their best games at the console, eventually the userbase will go up and Wii will become a fad.


I will state for the record I do not think that is the smartest business decision but it is one that would make some sense, it is like they are hoping the Wii will go away so they can focus on Ps3 and make their money back and in the mean time will release low budget games to whatever sales they can to fund their Ps3 projects in hopes that things will "straighten out" eventually.

It is maybe flawed logic but it is the only reason I can think of for the way things are and it is just going to take more time for the big name stuff to start showing up on Wii, it sucks to be sure no doubt about it, but it is the reality and well there isn't much anyone can do. I still maintain hope that by the end of next year things will be how the should be, or hell even by the start of next year, because that would fit into the time frame of having had time to realize Wii is the next Ps2 and developers will start having to shift their games to it to maximize profits.

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 05:53:13 PM »
"Nintendo fans were understandably disappointed with Ubisoft's showing at their annual media event, Ubidays. While the Xbox 360 and the PS3 got new iterations of The Prince of Persia and Beyond Good and Evil, the Wii and DS got games like "Petz Dogz Wii" (which might only have "Wii" in the title because the screenshots look similar to Nintendo DS title Nintendogs) and "Imagine Teacher.""

Understandably?  This disappointment stems from the fact that Nintendo actively decided to try their very hardest to become "pop" and they succeeded.  Why should anyone waste time making a "hardcore" game when they can make tripe that will likely make just as much or more money?

As an NWR editor I hate to say it, but Nintendo is all but dead to me as a console.  I love my DS and I own a Wii... but if Wii2 was being released tomorrow I don't think I'd buy one (especially if the next Zelda was being simultaneously released for Wii and Wii2 with essentially the same graphics as a Wii game and Metroid Prime 6 and Super Mario Universe were pushed back a year).  Sure, I'd probably get one eventually (probably; but truth be told I hate the Wii controller).  Actually I take that back; I'd buy 10 of them and sell them on eBay.

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Offline Shift Key

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 08:50:34 PM »
Quote
So it does make sense that as of RIGHT NOW the Wii is the best selling console and it is a sure fire system to get your games on, but it takes a year or more to make the types of games everyone is begging for so 3rd parties either have to start swtiching resources over and focus on the Wii or they have to just keep going the route they are and hope for the best. I think that it is more or less they invested heavily in the Ps3 because PS1/2 were so sucessful it was assumed Ps3 would be too, and now they feel the need to get a return on that investment by betting that if they continue to throw their best games at the console, eventually the userbase will go up and Wii will become a fad.

I have two problems with this:

The first is that they've been saying the "it takes time to move resources over" excuse since the Wii came out. It is coming up on two years since it was released in Japan. How much longer should we give them? Another twelve months?

The second one is the "throw money at the problem until it goes away" plan. No company survives doing that, and the indicators are there - Sony and Microsoft racking up massive debts this gen on their systems, third parties struggling and merging/fading into the night. It may work for a while but it is only staving off the inevitable - the company made a stupid decision and needs to review it.

Offline animecyberrat

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2008, 12:11:51 AM »
But they are still possibilities right? Not the smartest business proposal but something that could be logical in the mind of a company that still holds a grudge against Nintendo. Honestly who knows. As for the moving resources over bit, well I thought more companies were doing just that. Maybe not as fast as they should but it seams to me like Wii announcements are starting to pick up a bit. The latest I would give it is this years E3, if things don't change by then they likely won't and it is more or less stubbornness at that point.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2008, 02:44:17 AM »
Ubi's forums are down for the weekend.

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Re: How to Manage Your Forums
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2008, 02:35:12 PM »
What we're seeing here is video games becoming so mainstream, and the video game audience becoming so massive, that companies can actually make a boatload of money by catering to a single type of gamer.

Wii is now officially the budget, family console.  This is what Dad plays with the wife and kids after dinner, before the kids go to bed.  In general, the games made for Wii will reflect this reality.

Xbox 360/Playstation 3 is the console that Dad plays with by himself (maybe with the wife), after the kids have gone to bed.  In general, the games made for Xbox 360/Playstation 3 will reflect this reality.

As a gamer, the Wii doesn't really cater to my interests any more.  It's a niche console - you get your Zeldas, Mario Galaxys, Smash Bros. Brawls, but that's about it.  To everybody else, it's exactly what they're looking for; it features fun games that are easy to get into, and they don't require you to be a video game master who's prepared to put 50 hours into every title you pick up.

If you consider yourself a serious gamer, don't buy a Wii.  It's a simple as that.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 02:37:47 PM by Silks »
Jon Lindemann
Contributing Editor, Nintendo World Report

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