Topic: The SSE mode: Sakurai's TRUE feelings? (SPOILERS!)

[Smash_Brother]

Care to elaborte on the connection here, or what implies that he is somehow angsty toward Miyamoto?

What part of "Miyamoto suggested Sakurai not focus so much on the single player and Sakurai blew him off" do people keep forgetting?

And the SSE was cute but pointless, and the "story" was silly and incomprehensible, evidenced by the fact that Sakurai made a post on the blog explaining what was ACTUALLY going on the whole time, probably in response to so many complaints.

The reason I do that is that there is no point to these threads. it's obvious you have discussed this topic at length outside the forum before making this thread. You then make the thread not to discuss and debate whether or not you're right, you make them so you can convince others of your crazy notions. It's funny because people fall for it everytime, the thread ends up turning around and around in a circle with no progress past the first couple of posts.

Actually, Pap posted this one on a whim. There wasn't any discussion beforehand, but I agree about how these threads turn out...

[Arbok]

I presume you're being sarcastic...

And how!

What part of "Miyamoto suggested Sakurai not focus so much on the single player and Sakurai blew him off" do people keep forgetting?

And what part of that indicates cross feelings between the two? Sakurai and Miyamoto were together when Miyamoto mentioned that he thought there shouldn't be a focus on single player. I don't think disagreement automatically means you somehow secretly dislike the person, especially in the business world when creativity plays such a huge part as it does in the video game industry.

Look, if people want to see Sakurai as someone who hates everyone else whoever made a name for them self in Nintendo, and that SSE is his way of flipping them all the bird, go for it. You can make a metaphor of every action if you please and likely turn it to imply what you want. Personally I just think Sakurai prefers his own characters, as he said at GDC,... end of story, and that there was no deliberate attempt to "sabotage" the others.

[NWR_pap64]

You know what I find funny and ironic about this? Some of you are saying "Oh you are over analyzing this, you don't know what happened shut up!", when in fact NO ONE knows the whole story. Most of these events happen behind the scenes, and I'm sure the companies keep these things a secret to make sure nothing gets leaked out about a game's development and its team members.

So you are right in that we could be over-analyzing facts and coming to conclusions based on the little info we have, but you could also be wrong. No game development ever goes smoothly and egos are more than likely to clash. So if believing that there is a conspiracy during the game's creation is bad then so is believing that nothing went on behind the scenes.

As for you, Dasmos, its clear you don't give a crap about what I think, which is fine. I didn't expect this to be accepted by everyone. But what I find funny is that you say this...

"You then make the thread not to discuss and debate whether or not you're right, you make them so you can convince others of your crazy notions. It's funny because people fall for it everytime, the thread ends up turning around and around in a circle with no progress past the first couple of posts."

You basically described the internet and the point of message boards.

What do you see every day around here? People trying to make a point about...
-Why the Wii doesn't have good games
-Why Mario Kart Wii is severely flawed
-The issue with hardcore and casual games
-Nintendo's online strategy

Hell, just look at Johnny's review of MK Wii. Its already at 2 pages, most of it filled with insults and disagreements aimed at him. And basically, he was trying to make a point about how MK Wii was, in HIS eyes, the weakest MK yet.

So why look at me as if I am the biggest culprit? If you clearly disagree with me fine, I don't care. Its your mind. But don't disguise it as clever put downs that don't add to the thread and instead brings it further down to hell.

[Smash_Brother]

Pap just pwned the hell out of this thread...

[Arbok]

So if believing that there is a conspiracy during the game's creation is bad then so is believing that nothing went on behind the scenes.

Translation: when you don't have enough information about someone, you should be inclined to assume the worst about them to fill in the blanks?

People can assume the worst or the best out of someone, you clearly pick the former in this case. I just find this whole concept of using the SSE story as proof that he does have an axe to grind with his former coworkers to be akin to clasping at straws to prove a point... especially since we have nothing to indicate there were any hard feelings amongst the crew in the first place.

You mentioned in your opening post too that Miyamoto was against the SSE... that's not true. His comment was made before the mode had even been unveiled, was probably only mentioned on a pitch by Sakurai, and had been a statement in place since the 64 game. Hell, look at the original interview:

"This time we're getting a lot of time to focus on Smash Bros., plenty of time to develop it, so people can expect a very robust single-player game."

Who is saying that? That's Miyamoto. He doesn't sound like he is so rooted and against the concept. In fact, maybe these were words of wisdom left over from Melee, when time was a huge issue, hence Miyamoto saying: "...so I just said well, make [single player] really short so we can focus on multiplayer and get the game done. And we kind of did a little bit of that on the GameCube..."

So really this whole hidden dagger hatred that people are trying to infuse into Sakurai-Miyamoto... I'm just not seeing it from the interviews they have done together.

[Luigi Dude]

What part of "Miyamoto suggested Sakurai not focus so much on the single player and Sakurai blew him off" do people keep forgetting?

Miyamoto only suggested Sakurai not focus much on the Single Player in the N64 version and that was it.  This was because the original was a low budget game that was made in a short time frame and so Sakurai didn't have the resources to work on both the Single and Multi which is why Miyamoto told him to only worry about the Multi since that was the originals whole focus.

Miyamoto never said anything to Sakurai about Melee and Brawl because the series had already been established as a great Multiplayer series and so Sakurai was able to add more Single Player elements because he now had the time and money, not to mention a much bigger team to handle it and the Multiplayer at the same time.

Plus how many times does it need to be said that most of Brawl IS Multiplayer.  The Subspace Emissary which you all complain about as the Single Player mode, allows for Multiplayer.  Plus you have Multiplayer Event Modes, Break the Target, Multi-Man Brawl, Home Run Contest, and Boss Battle Mode.  The only time you can't play in Multiplayer are Classic and All-Star Mode, that's it.  In the end over 90% of Brawls modes are Multiplayer, and it contains more Multiplayer modes then any of the previous games.

Plus there's also the fact that Brawl is a much better balanced game then Melee.  Usually fighting games that add more characters because more unbalanced, but the fact that Brawl has more characters then Melee and ends up much better balanced, shows that Sakurai spent a sh!t load of time working on just the Multiplayer alone.

[Arbok]

Miyamoto only suggested Sakurai not focus much on the Single Player in the N64 version and that was it.

 

Actually the interview indicates that the comment was first made for the 64 version, but since he later mentions the Gamecube one it seems to indicate that, at the very least, he made the same advice in reference to Melee (which was apt since we all know the time frame on that was very tight).

The only time you can't play in Multiplayer are Classic and All-Star Mode, that's it.  In the end over 90% of Brawls modes are Multiplayer, and it contains more Multiplayer modes then any of the previous games.

Very, very true, and people seem to be overlooking this. People so far have assumed Miyamoto is against the SSE... but his reference was to single player and single player only. As Luigi Dude mentions, Brawl is so jam packed with co-op opportunities that... well maybe Sakurai was actually following Miyamoto's advice in trying to make it as multiplayer focused as possible (the general assumption so far is that multiplayer can only be in reference to stock/time matches)?

Plus there's also the fact that Brawl is a much better balanced game then Melee.  Usually fighting games that add more characters because more unbalanced, but the fact that Brawl has more characters then Melee and ends up much better balanced, shows that Sakurai spent a sh!t load of time working on just the Multiplayer alone.

Preach it. Melee was my favorite game of all time... but Brawl has more than surpassed it thanks to the excellent balance it has. Yes the Final Smashes are lacking in this area, but it's so, so much better balanced then either the 64 or Melee was that I'm really enjoying it.

[Mikintosh]

The pictures accompanying the interview showed them getting along, and if Sakurai had bad blood towards the guy why would he have agreed to the interview? He's not a Nintendo employee and he'd already finished the game he made for them. Geez...

Photoshop.

To what end? For chrissakes, you people are turning this into an IMDB message board, and there can be no greater shame.

[Smash_Brother]

Let's drop another log on this fire...

I can think of few characters Nintendo would've probably liked to have in SSBB than Snake.

Let's face it, Hideo Kojima has only been surpassed in his Nintendo-bashing by Chris Hecker said the Wii was two Gamecubes duct taped together, and Kojima's not too far behind him.

Between him calling the Gamecube a "Purple handbag" last gen and saying the Wii was "cable TV" compared to the PS3 which is a "theatre experience", then factor in the complete commercial failure of MGS:TS, I can't imagine Nintendo has much love for the bastard, if any.

Yet there's Snake, snapping the necks of beloved Nintendo characters across the board. My guess is that Sakurai had total creative freedom as one of the stipulations when it came to developing the game, hence why his little buddy Kojima could ask to put Snake in and it wouldn't be an issue.

Then, there's the fact that most of the MGS content in the game can't be found on Nintendo hardware, including the fact that Snake's isn't even the Snake from MGS:TS but from MGS2. It's like he went out of his way to put as much content not accessible on a Nintendo platform as possible.

Now, this is the part where speculation has to inevitably enter the equation. Do I KNOW that Miyamoto is miffed that Snake is breaking the necks of his characters in households all over the world (except Europe, but that's because I suspect Sakurai hates Europe for having so many languages)? No, but it's not exactly a stretch to assume he would be. Why wouldn't he be? Miyamoto has always shied away from the idea of M rated games and probably finds them horribly distasteful.

In his shoes, I wouldn't be happy, especially when the character doing this to MY characters was created by some asshole who can't find enough bad things to say about my company.

So yeah, speculation, but far from unreasonable.

[Arbok]

My guess is that Sakurai had total creative freedom as one of the stipulations when it came to developing the game, hence why his little buddy Kojima could ask to put Snake in and it wouldn't be an issue.

Why would Nintendo take issue with it, though? Let's look at how it all played out due to Snake being in there: Brawl was covered in an exclusively Playstation magazine, Snake was a almost "hero" of the whole Wii60 movement online and he has been readily featured in advertisements (Bestbuy used him and Pikachu as the star focus of theirs).

They gained a lot, and the PS2 era is over, we are in the next generation and if you can swoon over some fans of a rival by referencing older software, why not? The only questionable thing, in the minds of Nintendo as I see it, would be the stuff related to MGS4, which was the song and the Metal Gear. Otherwise, why not? They got a lot of press out of his inclusion, and probably turned heads toward the series who might have shied away before. Given the blockbuster performance of the game, and that it's likely to pass Melee in no time, I don't think Nintendo has any regrets, regardless of if his moves could be perceived as violent such as his grab.

[Adrock]

Miyamoto never said anything to Sakurai about Melee...

I thought Sakurai had to practically beg Miyamoto to allow him to include the adventure mode in Melee. I'm not saying you're wrong. Rather, I remember reading an interview years ago where Sakarai stated that Miyamoto wanted him to focus on multplayer. That would partially explain why the Adventure Mode in Melee felt so incomplete.

Let's face it, Hideo Kojima has only been surpassed in his Nintendo-bashing by Chris Hecker said the Wii was two Gamecubes duct taped together, and Kojima's not too far behind him.

Really? More than Mark Rein.... or rather everyone from Epic Games except CliffyB?

[Shift Key]

So if believing that there is a conspiracy during the game's creation is bad then so is believing that nothing went on behind the scenes.

You seem to be painting this as Sakurai undermining Nintendo's characters and point to some interviews (which can be interpreted in different ways)  and past events (which is exactly that, the past) and parts of the single-player mode of the finished product.

Some of us feel that this is a waste of time, because in the end all you are doing is handwaving rather than producing a concrete proof, because, as you said, "no-one knows the whole story".

So why look at me as if I am the biggest culprit? If you clearly disagree with me fine, I don't care. Its your mind. But don't disguise it as clever put downs that don't add to the thread and instead brings it further down to hell.

Grow a pair.

[blackfootsteps]

The pictures accompanying the interview showed them getting along, and if Sakurai had bad blood towards the guy why would he have agreed to the interview? He's not a Nintendo employee and he'd already finished the game he made for them. Geez...

Photoshop.

To what end? For chrissakes, you people are turning this into an IMDB message board, and there can be no greater shame.

Your sarcasm detector is clearly defective. Relax.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

omg <3 thread

[Smash_Brother]

Really? More than Mark Rein.... or rather everyone from Epic Games except CliffyB?

How about people who don't make a living selling engines that won't run on the Wii?

There's no reason Kojima should be antagonizing it. Even if he thinks the PS3 is more capable, you can say that without insulting the console, something Kojima has chosen not to do. Plus, he lambasted the GC, despite the fact that it was more powerful than his console of choice, the PS2.

As for Snake and the attention he garnered, do you really think Nintendo was even the least bit concerned for the sales of SSBB? Besides, I'm sure what attention Snake grabbed was a whisper on the scream of the attention Sonic garnered.

[Dasmos]

So why look at me as if I am the biggest culprit? If you clearly disagree with me fine, I don't care. Its your mind. But don't disguise it as clever put downs that don't add to the thread and instead brings it further down to hell.

I was trying to send this thread to hell. It's horrible. The funny thing is I don't have a problem with threads like Johnny's review thread, though I may disagree with him it's an opinion.

This isn't an opinion, this is trying to pass off mindless speculation as fact. You're trying to find things inbetween the lines. You're over-analysing everything, and I might add you've never played the game. The amounts of times I've seen you come into a thread and say something along the lines "While I have not played the game, here is my giant analysis of everything from my limited perspective."

[Dasmos]

Really? More than Mark Rein.... or rather everyone from Epic Games except CliffyB?

How about people who don't make a living selling engines that won't run on the Wii?

There's no reason Kojima should be antagonizing it. Even if he thinks the PS3 is more capable, you can say that without insulting the console, something Kojima has chosen not to do. Plus, he lambasted the GC, despite the fact that it was more powerful than his console of choice, the PS2.

Oh LOL, I thought S_B was being sarcastic in his post about Kojima, but nope. You guys never cease to amaze.

As for Snake and the attention he garnered, do you really think Nintendo was even the least bit concerned for the sales of SSBB? Besides, I'm sure what attention Snake grabbed was a whisper on the scream of the attention Sonic garnered.

Perhaps they attract different audiences? Maybe. Didn't even cross your mind, I bet. I know there are many people who would have never even glanced at the game without a mention of Snake. Anyway Sonic is a joke now, anyone who bought the game because Sonic is in it clearly has a world of problems.

[Adrock]

Oh LOL, I thought S_B was being sarcastic in his post about Kojima, but nope. You guys never cease to amaze.

That was the impression I got. Especially when he began his post with, "Let's drop another log on this fire..." I was merely pointing out in passing that Mark Rein was a more obvious choice when it comes to Wii bashing.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Now, this is the part where speculation has to inevitably enter the equation. Do I KNOW that Miyamoto is miffed that Snake is breaking the necks of his characters in households all over the world?

Oh please, not this again. I figured you would stop beating that dead horse after the last failure of a thread you made. I cannot stress this enough: the gameplay in SSBB is considered to be Cartoon Violence because attacks are portrayed in a unrealistic and often comedic fashion. This here is no different:
Firstly, the move Snake performs isn't even a neck snap. Secondly, it all happens extremely fast (the clip you showed earlier was slowed down to about a fifth of the actual speed. Lastly, the character will be straight back on his feet - not dissimilar to many other fighting games.

As for Snake and the attention he garnered, do you really think Nintendo was even the least bit concerned for the sales of SSBB? Besides, I'm sure what attention Snake grabbed was a whisper on the scream of the attention Sonic garnered.

You are missing the point here. Of course they were never worried about Brawl's sales? But Nintendo are a trans-national corporation; they can never sell too much. They want as many consumers for their product as possible, so it makes perfect sense to have lots of different selling points.

[Darkheart]

You guys are looking way too hard into a video game. . . I heard that if you play all the SSE cut scenes backwards you can hear Sakurai swearing in Russian at children claiming Kirby is their god.

[Nick DiMola]

omg <3 thread

My thoughts exactly

To what end? For chrissakes, you people are turning this into an IMDB message board, and there can be no greater shame.

You've obviously never been on gamefaqs before.

[Smash_Brother]

double post

[Smash_Brother]

Perhaps they attract different audiences? Maybe. Didn't even cross your mind, I bet.

By jove! Dasmos figured it out: Nintendo is trying to market to...THE SONY DEFENSE FORCE! Layton's apprentice saves the day!

Or maybe Snake was in the game because Kojima and Sakurai are friends...

Besides, if they're going to be pulling M rated characters into the game to attract a bigger crowd, they should just toss Master Chief in there and be done with it (not saying he's a good character, mind you, just far more popular and less emo than Snake).

That was the impression I got. Especially when he began his post with, "Let's drop another log on this fire..." I was merely pointing out in passing that Mark Rein was a more obvious choice when it comes to Wii bashing.

And I was pointing out that he makes his living selling products that don't work on Wii so his dung flinging and chest beating is natural, but Kojima is...well, a fruit bat. I've heard him say good things about the Wii as well, if I recall. I think it depends upon whether or not they're interviewing him about MGS4 and he thinks someone from Sony might be watching (I wouldn't be surprised if the camera panned down during one of these interviews to reveal that Kojima is actually in a pair of Sony-branded shackles).

Maybe he's a closet Nintendo fan or something. Why else would he beg for Snake to be in a SSB game?

And for the record, in this thread we've managed to get everyone pissed at me again, lulled Dasmos into a false sense of security and taken shots at Sakurai repeatedly.

Love this thread? I want to take it behind the bleachers and get it pregnant.

[Mario]

I'm still expecting some kind of MGS Wii announcement. It just has to all make sense in the end.

[Smash_Brother]

It just has to all make sense in the end.

I kept saying that while playing SSE.

My advice: don't get your hopes up.