Author Topic: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight  (Read 29975 times)

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2007, 10:33:38 AM »
As for my 2¢ in this, I think playing the game should be as simple as humanly possible so I'm completely for the removal of wavedashing.

Those with skill can attain that skill without cheap game glitches.
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Offline Strell

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2007, 11:08:01 AM »
I'll just quote myself from over at CAG:

You know, I can't tell what people want out of Smash at this point.

I have seen countless arguments that the franchise itself is shallow, "meant for everyone," simple gameplay. "It's a Mary-o game!" I'd hear, as if that were something....valid to say.

And now I'm hearing tons of laments about "omfg, they r can has make it for teh everyone!!111"  As if it were occupying some echelon that the same people said it didn't.

You people need to make up your goddamn minds about the whole thing.  It was always meant to be the simple fighting game for everyone.  The special movies are one button plus a direction.  I remember when I thought Street Fighter 2 had difficult moves, but now I see them as so simple it hurts, that when Smash was originally announced, I thought Nintendo was crazy.

And then I played it, and it kicked ass, and that is all there was to it.  And I found that I could utilize a bunch of different techs that gave me an edge over other people.  And then I found that there were people who could trump even (what I had thought was) my awesome skill.  And I'm willing to bet even those people have an entirely different level of people that would destroy them.

Point being is that the game has always been able to be for everyone, and yet contained enough variation available to those willing to seek it out and perfect those skills.

But again it's always meant to be a game marketed for everyone.  I think that's the whole reason that it uses mascots that are (for the most part) highly recognizable.

All these advanced moves everyone found were found.  There's no mention of them anywhere in official documentation.  Instead, they were discovered and perfected by pioneering gamers who - as DMK once told me - "approach the game much differently than you or I."  

Now, maybe Sakurai hates all of that, and wants all of it out.  Or maybe he's looking for different techniques to put in.  We don't know, and frankly we won't know until the final version goes gold and gets pressed onto some silicon.  But I somehow doubt he wants to "nerf the whole game" and piss off those people, because he's said time and time again that the people making this game are some of the biggest Smash players ever.  Even Kojima said "the game feels finished" when he tried it out, and that was back in summer or spring.  

It's four months away.  We have no clue about how the final version of the game will ultimately control.  All we know is the impressions from a build of the game that certainly isn't final.

Maybe that's what the additional two months of development are for.  Originally, the only people who played it was the dev team (which was reportedly composed of people who have played it thousands upon thousands of hours).  But this is the first time we've seen it in the wild and playable by other people.

Sakurai seems like an intelligent developer - Nintendo went the extra mile to get him back on board to make it.  

And even if worse comes to worse and the whole thing IS simplified beyond belief, then people ought to be able to 1) find new ways to have advanced techs in it, and 2) adapt to what is there already.

Have some damn patience, people.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2007, 11:25:11 AM »
Good post Strell. In regards to the whole glitch/game exploit stuff I am thankful that Melee wasn't Wi-fi I would get so freaken frustrated if I had to play people who knew those exploits, it is one thing to get beat by skill but for someone exploit things that were never intended to be exploited makes things quite lame.
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Offline Tanookisuit

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2007, 12:54:40 PM »
Do you think Nintendo is watching those Smash Boards?  It wouldnt surprise me if this E for All demo is being used to discover new explits (like inkdropping, or whatever) and remove them from the game in the remaining months of development.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2007, 12:59:11 PM »
I think Nintendo is listening, heck look what they did with Zelda: TP's controls, they took people's concerns down and actually changed a lot of it.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2007, 01:06:15 PM »
Good players don't need wavedashing to win. They should be able to do so on the fundamentals alone.

Anyone complaining about the lack of wavedashing was using it as a crutch in Melee.  
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2007, 02:56:57 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Tanookisuit
Do you think Nintendo is watching those Smash Boards?  It wouldnt surprise me if this E for All demo is being used to discover new explits (like inkdropping, or whatever) and remove them from the game in the remaining months of development.


That would be so awesome if true.

Anyway, my 2 cents: a veteran should be able to slaughter an amateur. Period. However, that shouldn't be due to advance techniques which were never intended, like wavedashing and what not. It should simply be because they have mastered a particular character and are adept in taking advantage of their strengths.

Likewise, though, I do think the game should have a level of simplicity to it so that an amateur can quickly increase their own skill and eventually hold their own against more experienced players. Some people don't seem to like the change to the C-stick, how it can now charge, but I'm personally for it. It lets people hold their own in the game quicker, but there is still an advantage to using the traditional approach as, simply put, it's quicker to pull off that way then moving to use the C-stick.
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Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2007, 06:02:57 PM »
Hey all. Your resident Smash tourney goer here with my two cents on this whoole fiasco.

First off let me start out by saying that I feel very alienated and attacked by all the tournament Melee player hate in here. Yes I study and practice wavedashing, teching, etc etc but by no means do I somehow no longer know how to have fun with the game. I just have fun with it in an entirely different way than it would appear most here do. I do still occasionally play with items and on random stages with up to 4 people, but at the same time I like to tourney style it and fire up some no items on Final Dest or Battlefield and have at it. Who the hell is to say either way is a "right" or "wrong" way of playing the game? Some non-tournment players sound just as arrogant and buullheaded as the very people they love to hate!

Ahem, anyway, back to the subject at hand. I am ESTATIC at all of these gameplay changes! At its corew is still the Smash I know and love but on the outside is an entirely different ebast for me to understand and attempt to master once again. No wavedashing? Who cares?! Peach (My Melee best and favorite character...mmm...Peach) nerfed? Sweet! Time to re-learn her! I did the same thing with Pikachu in the transition from SSB64 to Melee only to discover that Pikachu had become an even more fun character for me to use! Sure he was no longer my best but I loved using him even msot and was better with him in Melee than 64.

I don't know if anyone will even care but at least one tournament player doesn't just like the changes but WELCOMES them! Dec 3 was already an eternity away for me with the passion I have for this game....Feb 10 is just torture, but, it is torture I welcome. I celebrated the delay as well. I want my ever so precious reason I bought my Wii to be as good as it can be. I was right there Dec 2001 with my beloved Cube buying the game that would latch on to my life for 6 years and you know what? I look incredibly forward to seeing the next one latch on for another 6 if not more.
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Offline IceCold

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2007, 06:35:27 PM »
EDIT: Hmm....
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2007, 06:42:59 PM »
Quote

First off let me start out by saying that I feel very alienated and attacked by all the tournament Melee player hate in here.


You should see what happens when you bash on Killer7!

Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #85 on: October 19, 2007, 07:12:22 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Quote

First off let me start out by saying that I feel very alienated and attacked by all the tournament Melee player hate in here.


You should see what happens when you bash on Killer7!


Good thing I absolutely love K7 then huh? Mmm..No More Heroes can't come soon enoguh for me.
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2007, 07:42:27 PM »
It is a good thing, or else you would be burned at the stake.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2007, 08:25:13 PM »
I don't think people hate the tournament players, it is just that like most hardcore fans it they have some super geeky things (Naming exploits after people is a great example of this). Regardless I think the point is that a game exploit is just that something that wasn't intended to be there by the designer, if people were truly good at the game they would do it within the confines of the game design, imo, it taints that person's skill. It is like PC gaming and people that hack their game to give them an advantage, that is exploiting and yes it is cheating the system. Heck what if someone found some goofy debug code threw button combinations that gave them an advantage that wasn't intended to remain in the game, would that person be justified in using it? In regards to the tourney players not having fun, sometimes I wonder that myself, because many who get involved in tourneys (I'm not just talking about SSB) are usually living and breathing the game, and I can see it easily turning away from playing the game to be "fun" to obsessing over being the best.

I don't believe I've ever complained about an exploit being fixed, in fact I applauded it, since I feel games should be played how the designer intended them to be played. If you can't have competitive and skilled matches within the confines of the gameplay design, then maybe that game isn't very good to start with. Regardless like Mashiro said getting alienated isn't anything to complain about, heck it is a fact of life, people will poke fun at you for certain things, and the best way to handle it is take it in stride and not so seriously.  
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #88 on: October 20, 2007, 08:39:19 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UniversalJuan First off let me start out by saying that I feel very alienated and attacked by all the tournament Melee player hate in here.


Are you a tourneyfåg, though?

The definition refers to individuals who drain all the fun out of the game by making it into a technical endeavor instead of a party game to enjoy with friends.

As long as you're still the type who grabs a low-tier character and spends time playing with friends, I don't think the term applies to you.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #89 on: October 20, 2007, 11:39:33 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote

Originally posted by: UniversalJuan First off let me start out by saying that I feel very alienated and attacked by all the tournament Melee player hate in here.


Are you a tourneyfåg, though?

The definition refers to individuals who drain all the fun out of the game by making it into a technical endeavor instead of a party game to enjoy with friends.

As long as you're still the type who grabs a low-tier character and spends time playing with friends, I don't think the term applies to you.


What Smash said.
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Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2007, 01:18:07 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote

Originally posted by: UniversalJuan First off let me start out by saying that I feel very alienated and attacked by all the tournament Melee player hate in here.


Are you a tourneyfåg, though?

The definition refers to individuals who drain all the fun out of the game by making it into a technical endeavor instead of a party game to enjoy with friends.

As long as you're still the type who grabs a low-tier character and spends time playing with friends, I don't think the term applies to you.


Heh, I actually don't believe in tiers whatsoever, I catch a lot of flak for that despite usually placing T8, but that's neither here nor there. I merely think that tehre is room for both the technical and the whimsical to both ernjoy the game...perhaps not together, but they are capable of still having FUN. Fun is subjective. Though it may seem like they're sucking the fun out to you, to them it's the only way to play and is still FUN.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2007, 05:26:33 PM »
Impressions from the IGN podcast:
"Super Smash Bros. Brawl
- “Exactly like you would think” - like Melee, with tons more options, characters, more interactive environments, and looks beautiful.
- Appears to be more “strategy” in this game, even though this demo was very slimmed down compared to the final product.
- Nice balance with characters: Metaknight is really cool - is really quick but he is still vulnerable due to his small size. Ike is real strong but slow and vulnerable is 1vs1 situations as a result.
- Samus appeared to be a little nerfed - a bit slow and weak. Sonic is very fast and awesome but needs to be mastered. Love Diddy Kong - really quick and awesome.
- Matt can’t wait to delve deeper into it - all we’ve seen so far is a shell of a game."
Pedro Hernandez
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Offline Dirk Temporo

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2007, 06:17:01 PM »
Jesus Samus was nerfed? She wasn't very good to begin with.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2007, 07:25:39 PM »
Is it just me or is this whining about characters being nerfed a little EARLY. Most of these people haven't gotten that much time with the game, so it is tough to say who got "nerfed" and who didn't, in addition to the fact that this was a demo and not a final version.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2007, 07:29:57 PM »
It wouldn't be too early if the game WASN'T delayed!
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2007, 07:32:49 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
It wouldn't be too early if the game WASN'T delayed!


Maybe, maybe not. We have no idea how early in the development cycle the demos were from. Regardless at least now there is enough time to modify things if they haven't done so already.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2007, 07:36:50 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
It wouldn't be too early if the game WASN'T delayed!


Maybe, maybe not. We have no idea how early in the development cycle the demos were from. Regardless at least now there is enough time to modify things if they haven't done so already.


Wait a sec... so now you're saying that the nerf-complaints are JUSTIFIED because now they can fix them?!?!?
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2007, 07:40:27 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
It wouldn't be too early if the game WASN'T delayed!


Maybe, maybe not. We have no idea how early in the development cycle the demos were from. Regardless at least now there is enough time to modify things if they haven't done so already.


Wait a sec... so now you're saying that the nerf-complaints are JUSTIFIED because now they can fix them?!?!?


No, I am talking about freaking out about characters being nerfed could be a bit too premature since no one has got adequate time with the game, nor do we know if the demo is even up to date. I think it is fine to be concerned about certain things but to freak out that the character is nerfed  seems to be jumping the gun a bit much.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2007, 07:43:17 PM »
*snaps fingers*

Darn... almost... ALMOST!

One of these days GoldenPhoenix, I'll trap you in a web of YOUR OWN WORDS!!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Offline LuigiHann

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RE: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2007, 08:04:30 PM »
Know what else is an obnoxious, made-up word?

"Tourneyfag."