Topic: Is Nintendo Creating Lapsed Wii Gamers?

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
But what about the poor poor developers of Soul Calibur Legends? or Spider-Man Friend or Foe? I had to bump those games off of my budget... if those developers tried a little bit harder they'd have my money instead of Crash Bandicoot, Ghost Squad, etc. getting it!

Crash over Spider-man? I dunno what the final game will be like, but from what I played the game will lapse plenty of gamers from touching it for too long.

[ShyGuy]

Kairon has an interesting point.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Well you know what we can? Purchase games that look great like Zack and Wiki, and show 3rd parties that good games can sell!

[Kairon]

Buy multiple copies of Zack & Wiki.

Yeah, but with regards to Crash vs. Spider Man, I think that this is a case where marketting was the deciding factor. I was surprised to find out a couple days ago that Spider Man friend or Foe was coming out actually, despite the fact that I'd been curious about the game's concept and co-op play for the longest time!

[Mario]

If you're bored with the greatest lineup of games ever to hit a console on Wii, then the problem is with you.

[KDR_11k]

I think Nintendo implicitely gave third parties an ultimatum: "You have one year to release your big games and make big money before we bring our heavy hitters on the market." Few followed that and many are still trying the impossible and go for christmas (games sell 2x as much on christmas but there are 5x as many releases, go figure).

[Svevan]

Nintendo doesn't own Christmas.

OR DO THEY....?

[BigJim]

Jeez, a handful of us have been talking about this for years, get lambasted every time almost without fail, and now there's an intellectual discussion about it. sigh.

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What I have been thinking about today is whether Wii has also been creating "Lapsed Wii Gamers",

Nintendo has created lapsed gamers, yes. But it did not start with the Wii. I've considered myself to be a lapsed gamer for about 4 years. Not really by my own choice, but because Nintendo took a left turn once they reached the second year of the GameCube's life. After the 2002 list of heavy-hitters, they've been on a very slow path of (at best) seasonal releases that interest me. I would buy games every-freaking-month if they actually released stuff I wanted every month. It is really depressing to have this hobby I used to care a LOT about, and still WANT to care a lot about, but there's just nothing there to bite into.

The fact that third parties are failing to run with the ball makes it all the worse.

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Like I keep saying, I HAVE MONEY. TAKE IT FROM ME!!!

Amen.

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Is it just me, or is it kind of flawed logic that Nintendo is splitting their games in half. This year we got three huge titles,...

That's the problem. 3 huge titles, 10 months into the year = averages out to seasonal system usage, and that's if you want each of their huge titles, which is not always going to be the case.

Whether or not that has anything to do with them splitting their attention in half or not, I don't know. This issue preceded the Wii. But it's still a problem (whatever the cause) for consumers that don't want their system collecting dust so often. If Nintendo can't get 3rd parties to step up, then they need to do the stepping. They have not. Hence this discussion.

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We have to realize that Nintendo is now the 2nd richest company in Japan, they can now create MORE games of both casual and traditional.

They are #2 in sheer stock value and assets, but they have not demonstrated in years, including the past year, that they have the manpower to satisfy both audiences.    

[Deguello]

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They are #2 in sheer stock value and assets, but they have not demonstrated in years, including the past year, that they have the manpower to satisfy both audiences.

Got any source or proof on that?  I mean because otherwise it sounds like a pretty arbitrary statement considering Nintendo's record-breaking software sales these past two years on both the DS and Wii, which includes games like Brain Training and Mario Kart DS and Kirby and Wii Play and stuff.  Unless you want to have another "definition war" as to what is hardcore and what isn't, where we arbitrarily list titles that we enjoy and denounce others in a totally new version of "my dad can beat your dad up" or "you don't love your mom as much as I love mine."  This casual/nongamer/hardcore gamer "schism" is a total fabrication by the (god I hate to sound like Rush Limbaugh) 'hardcore' games media.  *Blech* yuck.  But, unfortunately, it's true.  I mean check out that Phantom Hourglass review by 1up, the one with the ready-made fan-backlash damage control comment the second the review gets posted.

There something more going on with the way Wii games, and to a lesser extent, DS games are reviewed and talked about by major sites.  Like some Wii games threaten their ideology of what a game should be and comfort level of how this generation should have played out.  That's why we see the low scores on games the market obviously loves and the segmentation of non-gamers and "real" gamers.  They don't like what Nintendo's doing in the games market, and they DEFINITELY don't like the fact that they are winning (before you jump in with how close it is, please note that only in America is the 360 decidedly ahead.  In Europe it's almost a dead heat and in Japan the Wii is #1 with a bullet, having nearly a 2.5 million lead over the next highest competitor [PS3]).  So they'll attempt to attack and segment, try to rate Nintendo into the ground and think they are writing the history of Wii, when it is actually the masses of consumers that are going to be writing the history.

[Infernal Monkey]

Nintendo? No. The internet has created lapsed gamers. Let's all whinge on forums all day long about how we don't play video games. Play this one!

[Ian Sane]

"Nintendo's created a market, it's just that 3rd parties are FAILING at exploiting that market."

Actually they're doing a great job of exploiting the market.  They're not giving us their best stuff because they've realized they don't have to.  What we're really asking is for them to be nice and give us their best games even though they can make good money with less effort.

Maybe the problem is the hardware difference.  If you make a Wii game it's really only going to be able to work as Wii game.  But if I make a PS3 game I can port it to the Xbox 360.  So while the Wii may be the market leader the potential for total sales on the PS3 and Xbox 360 COMBINED may still be bigger than the potential sales for the just the Wii.  The controller is way different and the hardware is way different.  Odds are they CAN'T port a game from the other current gen consoles because the Wii lacks the hardware to do it so we get PS2 ports because the Wii is easily capable of handling that.

There are two versions of Splinter Cell: Double Agent.  One is for the Xbox 360, PC, and PS3.  The other is for the Xbox, Gamecube, PS2 and Wii.  Why did they put the last gen version on the Wii instead of the current gen one?  Well I'm guessing that taking the current gen version and downgrading it to work on the Wii is too much work so the we get the last gen version instead.  The Wii has more in common with the last gen then it does with the PS3 and Xbox 360.

The PS3 may be a joke but the Xbox 360 isn't so good games are going to be designed on it.  These games can be also ported to the PS3 but can't be ported to the Wii.  Despite being the market leader the Wii is the odd man out.

"There something more going on with the way Wii games, and to a lesser extent, DS games are reviewed and talked about by major sites. Like some Wii games threaten their ideology of what a game should be and comfort level of how this generation should have played out. That's why we see the low scores on games the market obviously loves and the segmentation of non-gamers and 'real' gamers."

Since when does/should a review score have anything to do with what the market loves?  The review is supposed to be a recommendation based on how good the game is not a popularity rating.  Now we all know that some questionable reviews pop up but there is nothing wrong with a low selling game getting a good review or a high selling game getting a poor one.  We see it all the times in movies.  Every reviewer will say a movie is complete horsesh!t and that same film will be number one at the box office for that weekend.  Meanwhile many great films do poorly at the box office and then later become cult hits on DVD.

Hell I don't even see anything wrong with being upset that Nintendo is doing well with games the review doesn't like.  I HATE THAT.  I don't want sh!tty games to be successful because that just means that MORE sh!tty games will be made.  Do you think reviewers should change their taste in games to reflect what the mass market likes?  Then the reviews mean absolutely nothing at all.  I think it's good that regardless of what the market trend is reviewers are still giving good scores to games they like and bad scores to the ones they don't.  If they don't like what Nintendo is doing then I think it's a pretty good chance that the reason for that is because they don't like the games being made so the score is accurate to their opinion.  No one who loves WiiSports is giving it a lower score to try to kill what Nintendo is doing because if they love WiiSports then odds are they like what Nintendo is doing.

A few years ago when Playstation was number one if reviewers were giving better scores to Playstation games solely because those games were more popular everyone here would have freaked out and sometimes it seemed like that was happening.  But now that Nintendo is number one their console should be cut slack because it's popular?

[BigJim]

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Got any source or proof on that? I mean because otherwise it sounds like a pretty arbitrary statement considering Nintendo's record-breaking software sales these past two years on both the DS and Wii, which includes games like Brain Training and Mario Kart DS and Kirby and Wii Play and stuff.

If you want to chest-thump sales, you'll want to visit the Wii Sales thread instead. We're talking about lapsed gamers. Consumers lapse primarily because of low satisfaction. "Record-breaking software sales" is not proof of satisfaction, or else lapsed gamers wouldn't be an issue and this thread would be moot. Such as it is, Johnny asked a valid question about lapsed gamers, and if Nintendo has contributed to it.

You can debate the why's and how's. But it doesn't sound logical for a company to not satisfy all audiences they target if they had the manpower to do so. So my belief is that they don't have it. And haven't had it since third parties bailed on the N64 (3rd parties are just as guilty.)

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There something more going onwith the way Wii games, and to a lesser extent, DS games are reviewed and talked about by major sites. Like some Wii games threaten their ideology of what a game should be and comfort level of how this generation should have played out.

I can't really imagine most of what you typed was pointed at me, but I wanted to respond to this point, at least.

My theory on the hardcore gamers is that most don't really care if Nintendo is expanding the audience. However, history has shown that there are too often dead months in between the games they want to play. They fear that Nintendo adding "expanded audience" projects in the lineup threatens them with even more dead gaps. So they (misguidedly) lash out against those types of games, as they are the "easy" target.

So far we have not seen larger gaps, but the gaps are still there. At the heart of it, it's not what Nintendo's doing, it's what they aren't doing... and that is filling the gaps.  I don't think gamers really reject the ideals behind Wii Play and Brain Age. I believe they just want MORE Metroid, Mario, StarFox, Zelda, and fresh IPs that are attractive to them.

All that being said, Reggie made a good point, "How do you market Mario to a GTA fan?" You can't. What Nintendo is doing to some extent is putting the toothpaste back into the tube. Fine for new gamers, as they have no history to compare the games to. But by nature it is not going to be smooth sailing for all pre-identified gamers until they adequately manage these satisfaction issues. No positive sales data is going to change this, nor can it be dismissed as fabrication. Until then, the discussion will continue.  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Nintendo's created a market, it's just that 3rd parties are FAILING at exploiting that market."

Actually they're doing a great job of exploiting the market.  They're not giving us their best stuff because they've realized they don't have to.  What we're really asking is for them to be nice and give us their best games even though they can make good money with less effort.

Maybe the problem is the hardware difference.  If you make a Wii game it's really only going to be able to work as Wii game.  But if I make a PS3 game I can port it to the Xbox 360.  So while the Wii may be the market leader the potential for total sales on the PS3 and Xbox 360 COMBINED may still be bigger than the potential sales for the just the Wii.  The controller is way different and the hardware is way different.  Odds are they CAN'T port a game from the other current gen consoles because the Wii lacks the hardware to do it so we get PS2 ports because the Wii is easily capable of handling that.

There are two versions of Splinter Cell: Double Agent.  One is for the Xbox 360, PC, and PS3.  The other is for the Xbox, Gamecube, PS2 and Wii.  Why did they put the last gen version on the Wii instead of the current gen one?  Well I'm guessing that taking the current gen version and downgrading it to work on the Wii is too much work so the we get the last gen version instead.  The Wii has more in common with the last gen then it does with the PS3 and Xbox 360.

The PS3 may be a joke but the Xbox 360 isn't so good games are going to be designed on it.  These games can be also ported to the PS3 but can't be ported to the Wii.  Despite being the market leader the Wii is the odd man out.

I understand those issues, but what I'm really talking about is exclusive mid-range content. I'm still using as a personal indicator of success the idea of major mid-range smaller/niche company support. For example, I want the Wii to garner the umbrella of lesser known RPGs from companies like Atlus and Nis. I never played these games before because they were PS2 exclusive, which is why I'll see their Wii support a major breaking out of the Nintendo bubble. I can accept that the Wii will usually get ports of Need for speeds and Maddens and Mortal Kombats, but I want to see the Wii treated like the PS2 in this respect: the first choice platform for games that are quirkier, come from medium or smaller devs, and hanger-on franchises. I want to see developers who haven't "made it yet" try on the Wii. I want to see the Wii as a fertile, significant market for these sorts of games even though it may not be the ideal port machine for an XBox 360 or PS3 title.

[TerribleOne]

I also feel that Nintendo is creating more lapsed gamers, and i believe its due to the fact that it DOES have to cater to two audiences.

NOW..... what Nintendo fans are (shockingly) forgetting is that the same people who you criticized for goin out in droves to get GTA and madden are the sammeeee people who are buying into the wii now. Just because the wii has sold millions of copies doesnt make those consumers more important, but to Nintendo Corp., are more valuable than us long time fans. With that said, the market has shifted to attract these people and being this 'phenomena' has shown us that perhaps the wii will need another year to adapt to the fact that it's dealing with different demographics.

[Kairon]

I'd welcome GTA with open arms. Even if they ported the PSP games to us.

[Stogi]

I don't really have an opinion one way or another.

All I have to say really is that the Wii is a masterful machine and that I want Devs to at least TRY and use it to its full potential; not for profits, not for prestige, not for fame, but for the bettering of games everywhere!

[Deguello]

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If you want to chest-thump sales, you'll want to visit the Wii Sales thread instead. We're talking about lapsed gamers.

If you are aware of some other metric for measure this other than sales, I'm all ears.  Otherwise, sales is the best metric.  I mean polling a bunch of guys ont he internet isn't a good metric, and neither are reviews (most panned Mario Party 8, and yet somehow is doing smashing, as in twice as well as Mario Party 7, like the consumers are satisfied or something)

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My theory on the hardcore gamers is that most don't really care if Nintendo is expanding the audience.

This however requires a uniform definition of "hardcore" and there does not exist one.  The market segmentation simply does not exist.  It is simple "certain" hardcore gamers, some in positions of power, that are dictating this schism as if it was real because they ideologically clash with the results.

[Ian Sane]

"most panned Mario Party 8, and yet somehow is doing smashing, as in twice as well as Mario Party 7, like the consumers are satisfied or something"

What difference does that make?  That doesn't make Mario Party 8 a better game than Mario Party 7 or better than any other game.  No one here would have DARED suggest that sales mattered when Nintendo was getting royally creamed by Sony.  Back then we were all trying to come up with logical excuses as to why Madden always crushed everything in sales while Nintendo's latest awesome game was getting completely ignored.

"It is simple 'certain' hardcore gamers, some in positions of power, that are dictating this schism as if it was real because they ideologically clash with the results"

There must be something since every time "what do we all think of the Wii" comes up on this forum there is always debate and arguments.  At the very least I'd say there's a split among Nintendo fans.  They split into two groups: those who like (or tolerate I guess) the direction Nintendo has gone in and those that don't.

There's no definition of "hardcore" because marketing executives have bullsh!ted the word.  Microsoft used "hardcore gamer" as part of the Xbox marketing even though the Xbox was probably the most casual focused of the three consoles.  So terms get blurred and end up meaning nothing.  Everyone also categorizes games to fit their opinion.  You in favour of what Nintendo's doing?  Then you're going to try to make as big of a list of "gamer games" you can or you're going to retroactively declare old classic games as non-games to defend non-gaming's worth.  Don't like what Nintendo's doing?  Then the amount of non-games around is going to be bigger and no game you've ever liked in your life will be a non-game or have anything in common with one.

The topic is about lapsed gamers.  Well since there is a split in opinion between Nintendo fans at the very least I can see a group of Nintendo's old fanbase leaving because they don't like what Nintendo's doing.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I hope the old group leaves soon because their whining and never satisfied demeanor gives me a headache.

[mantidor]

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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
I don't really have an opinion one way or another.

All I have to say really is that the Wii is a masterful machine and that I want Devs to at least TRY and use it to its full potential; not for profits, not for prestige, not for fame, but for the bettering of games everywhere!

I completely agree.

My situation hasn't changed really, I still get few games, but I really want developers to try to be creative because the console is awesome, the little things like twisting a switch in Coruption are awesome, and thats just tiny, theres so much potential that I'm not seeing being tapped at all.

[BigJim]

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If you are aware of some other metric for measure this other than sales, I'm all ears. Otherwise, sales is the best metric.

So... you're saying there aren't lapsed gamers... because sales are good? Is this what you're saying? Because while I don't trust Nintendo's PR machine all the time, I'm fairly confident that Nintendo's not making up customers when they say (repeatedly) that they want to attract lapsed gamers.

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This however requires a uniform definition of "hardcore" and there does not exist one.

Not really. You can substitute "hardcore gamer" with whatever contextually accurate phrase that makes you happy. The point will still be the same.  Whoever "they" are, they want less gaps between the games they want to play.    

[Luigi Dude]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I hope the old group leaves soon because their whining and never satisfied demeanor gives me a headache.

I agree 100%.  By the end of 2007, Nintendo's published lineup will have been the best since the SNES era.  The complaints about not enough games for Nintendo fans is a poor one since since last year they've been releasing more then the N64 and Gamecube did in their first years.  Yet because Nintendo announces something like Wii Fit all they can think about is Nintendo focusing on non gamers, even though Nintendo is just as focused on their traditional fanbase as they've been in the last ten years.  If some people can't see that then there's no hope for them ever.

Wii's Nintendo published first year lineup for North America (Counting launch 2006 to end 2007)

Excite Truck
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Wii Sports
Warioware: Smooth Moves
Wii Play
Super Paper Mario
Mario Party 8
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
Pokémon Battle Revolution
Mario Strikers Charged
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Endless Ocean
Battalion Wars 2
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Super Mario Galaxy
Link's Crossbow Training
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
Super Smash Bros. Brawl

That's 19 games right there, and the only ones that can be considered non games are Wii Sports, Wii Play and Big Brain Academy.  That's 16 regular gamer games then, which is much better then the N64 and Gamecube had in there first years.

N64's Nintendo published first year lineup for North America (Counting launch 1996 to end 1997)

Super Mario 64
Pilotwings 64
Wave Race 64
Killer Instinct Gold
Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire
Mario Kart 64
Blast Corps
Bomberman 64
Diddy Kong Racing
GoldenEye 007
Mischief Makers
Star Fox 64
Tetrisphere

Gamecube's Nintendo published first year lineup for North America (Counting launch 2001 to end 2002)

Luigi's Mansion
Pikmin
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Wave Race: Blue Storm
Animal Crossing
Disney's Magical Mirror Starring Mickey Mouse
Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
Mario Party 4
Metroid Prime
NBA Courtside 2002
Star Fox Adventures
Super Mario Sunshine

So we have Nintendo releasing 16 gamer games for the Wii's first year, 13 for the N64 and 12 for the Gamecube.  As anyone can see Nintendo has supplied more traditional games during the Wii's first year then they did with the N64 and Gamecube.  This destroys the whole argument about them not able to give enough traditional games because even with them making games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit they're still able to supply just as many traditional gamer games as they've done for the last 10 year and in the Wii's case, MORE games.

Now people can start arguing about third party support, but no one in their right mind should say Nintendo themselves hasn't been doing their part because 90% of all the software they've released on the Wii so far is for traditional gamers.  If anyone still thinks Nintendo making non games is bad needs to open your eyes because as you can see it's hasn't effected their ability to create enough gamer games one bit.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

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This however requires a uniform definition of "hardcore" and there does not exist one.

Not really. You can substitute "hardcore gamer" with whatever contextually accurate phrase that makes you happy. The point will still be the same.  Whoever "they" are, they want less gaps between the games they want to play.

And that still leaves third parties as the key to satisfying that need. They haven't delivered so far, let's hope they actually start delivering next year even though we know very little about 2008.

Note: No More Heroes comes out in the US in February. Let's hope that's an auspicious sign.

[BigJim]

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Yet because Nintendo announces something like Wii Fit all they can think about is Nintendo focusing on non gamers, even though Nintendo is just as focused on their traditional fanbase as they've been in the last ten years.

Not so ironically, I stated that the problem of volume has existed since the N64. 10 years ago.

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That's 16 regular gamer games then, which is much better then the N64 and Gamecube had in there first years.

That kind of presumes people were satisfied with those lineups, thus should be thrilled about this lineup. But as you well know, being a gamer game is not the only prerequisite to buying a game. It doesn't matter if it's 16 or 116 if they aren't products they want.

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If anyone still thinks Nintendo making non games is bad needs to open your eyes because as you can see it's hasn't effected their ability to create enough gamer games one bit.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread arguing about Nintendo's consistency. "Enough" gamer games is subjective, however. And I debate what that means because I believe they have not (in those 10 years) demonstrated that they have the manpower to fully pick up the slack in the face of weak 3rd party support. Therefore, the overall supply of gamer games has not been "enough". Nintendo is not big enough to do it alone. Third parties matter immensely, but they simply haven't stepped up.

When there are no longer dead gaps between releases that they want to play, that's when I believe there are enough. There is no exact number, we just know that there are gaps.

[Luigi Dude]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

I haven't seen anybody in this thread arguing about Nintendo's consistency. "Enough" gamer games is subjective, however. And I debate what that means because I believe they have not (in those 10 years) demonstrated that they have the manpower to fully pick up the slack in the face of weak 3rd party support. Therefore, the overall supply of gamer games has not been "enough". Nintendo is not big enough to do it alone. Third parties matter immensely, but they simply have not shown up.

But the point is with the Wii it's not Nintendo's fault for the loosely third party support.  Nintendo has done a lot to try and get third parties back but if the third parties are too stupid then there's not much Nintendo can do.  Plus since the Wii is the dominate system, Nintendo shouldn't to jump through hoops just to get third parties back anymore.  In the past third parties always went to whoever was market leader, until now where they refuse to even though the Wii is the dominate system.

Until third parties finally wake up then all Nintendo can do is release their own software, but unlike the N64 and Gamecube, it's not entirely Nintendo's fault for it's system not having enough games.  The blame this time lies mostly on the third parties which makes it the third parties creating lapsed gamers, not Nintendo.