Author Topic: Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?  (Read 23838 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Nice work unclebob=D

That translates to: "Our legal department is going to kick their sorry ass all over the place and make em take it down".

::thumbs up::

Offline Darkheart

  • Darkheart
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
I just want facts.  I see no links to research studies here that go with any of these numbers being spewed and IF you decide to give me research studies IT HAS TO BE from a REAL study, none of those college study reports.

I had several paragraphs I was writing about the issues stated on the previous page but erased it due to it being risque on breaking forum policies.  I do not want to discuss taboo subjects.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
Is every Nintendo customer service rep privy to every single licensing deal the company has signed?


Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 99
    • View Profile
I'm willing to bet that if there was the slightest chance Nintendo had licensed anything to PETA, the random rep would not have said something about forwarding info about the game on to their legal team.  That's not the kind of thing low level customer service reps throw around.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2007, 05:14:50 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: darkheart
I just want facts.  I see no links to research studies here that go with any of these numbers being spewed and IF you decide to give me research studies IT HAS TO BE from a REAL study, none of those college study reports.

I had several paragraphs I was writing about the issues stated on the previous page but erased it due to it being risque on breaking forum policies.  I do not want to discuss taboo subjects.


Are you asking about my numbers? They're based on this:

How many absolute pacifists are there in the United States or on the planet? Everyone else, by definition, is willing to use violence in some case or other or at the very least wants someone else to do so in their name.

I'd be fascinated in knowing exactly how many of us there are either in the country or on the planet. Sadly, there is no polling data available to that effect (since a good chunk of America's pacifists are of anabaptist churches that eschew technology, I can't exactly commission a telephone poll and expect a reliable result). However I would be shocked, absolutely shocked, if it was anywhere near 1% of the population.

That'd be 3 million pacifists in the United States alone. Can there possibly be that many? My experience says absolutely not, and my own attempts at calculation, while having a pretty big margin of error, turn up at the high end about a quarter that amount: and to even get that many we need to assume that every member of the traditionally pacifist churches in the United States is an absolute pacifist.



Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Quote

'd be fascinated in knowing exactly how many of us there are either in the country or on the planet. Sadly, there is no polling data available to that effect


Same for your claim.

Your argument has absolutely no basis of truth. And again here is your statement:

Quote

Using violence to force others to agree with one's point of view hardly seems extremist. As I said before... 99%+ of people are willing to do that.


Which, while being very broad, has no basis of being true. Nor is there any data to prove otherwise.

Hypothetical statistics fail at everything.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
I wasn't aware we had someone else with a degree in mathematics in the discussion. My estimates aren't pulled from thin air but are based on the data that is available (culled from numerous sources), and while they may be rough I can assure you that the margin of error is nowhere near so large as to make three million absolute pacifists living in the United States a remote possibility.

If you have a piece of data suggesting that this is the case I would urge you to present it... as it would be both exceedingly relevant to the discussion at hand and of considerable personal interest.  

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
But it's all hypothetical, big deal.

Hypothetically I could go out and kill 100 people, hypothetically I could never do an act of violence in my life, blah blah.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2007, 06:07:39 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
But it's all hypothetical, big deal.

Hypothetically I could go out and kill 100 people, hypothetically I could never do an act of violence in my life, blah blah.


I think you may be mistaken about the definition of that word, hypothetically speaking.

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2007, 06:23:31 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
But it's all hypothetical, big deal.

Hypothetically I could go out and kill 100 people, hypothetically I could never do an act of violence in my life, blah blah.


I think you may be mistaken about the definition of that word, hypothetically speaking.


How so.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
The statistics in question are not "hypothetical"... they are real statistics derived from real statistical analysis.

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2007, 07:27:54 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
The statistics in question are not "hypothetical"... they are real statistics derived from real statistical analysis.


You haven't provided any hard evidence that they are real . . .

You have to cite documents and such in order to build a decent argument.

Saying something is true and saying why it is without any supporting evidence =/= truth.

Offline UERD

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
But those statistics don't mean a thing. If anything, there were far more people adamant against any US war involvement on December 6, 1941, than on December 8, 1941 (a day after the attack on Pearl Harbor). Maybe 1% of the US population consists of dedicated pacifists, but out of that remaining 99% there is a big, big chunk that would only agree to the military using force for the purpose of defending the nation, or use of deadly force by police in situations where innocent life is at risk.

And while any use of violence is an unappetizing prospect, the prospect of doing nothing and just allowing one's livelihood or even life taken from them without any sort of resistance is even more unpalatable. So your '99%' assertion is a straw man, designed to conjure images of masked murderers and depraved felons willing to hurt the innocent. A defensive war entails 'violence', but it is the kind of 'violence' that most people are (rightfully) willing to tolerate.
"I'm looking for shrunken heads w/ DVD playback options. I figure I can hang them in my car like dice. Will you help me?"
- thatguy

"Can you shoot out customizable fireballs? Then why should your Mii be able to?"
- vudu

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
... let's Godwin this thing already...

Hitler said the invasion of Poland was a defensive war.

Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 99
    • View Profile
Well, it was... Had he not invaded Poland, chances are, Poland would have joined Russia against Germany.

And, to be fair, Bush said the invasion of Iraq was a defensive war.

Anywhoo, I think jason is being extremist when it comes to defining the nature of people.  Just because you're not a pacifist doesn't mean you're a violent extremist.  It's not an issue of black or white.  Jason, you claim to be pacifist, but if I smacked you upside the head, would you do nothing?

If I smacked your mother upside the head, would you do nothing?

If I kicked your pregnant wife in the stomach, would you do nothing?
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #115 on: August 26, 2007, 03:40:22 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UERD
But those statistics don't mean a thing. If anything, there were far more people adamant against any US war involvement on December 6, 1941, than on December 8, 1941 (a day after the attack on Pearl Harbor). Maybe 1% of the US population consists of dedicated pacifists, but out of that remaining 99% there is a big, big chunk that would only agree to the military using force for the purpose of defending the nation, or use of deadly force by police in situations where innocent life is at risk.

And while any use of violence is an unappetizing prospect, the prospect of doing nothing and just allowing one's livelihood or even life taken from them without any sort of resistance is even more unpalatable. So your '99%' assertion is a straw man, designed to conjure images of masked murderers and depraved felons willing to hurt the innocent. A defensive war entails 'violence', but it is the kind of 'violence' that most people are (rightfully) willing to tolerate.


Its perplexing that you would simultaneously argue that the distinction between pacifists and non-pacifists who only use violence for what is in your estimation good reasons is meaningless and toss out a tired rehashing of the "pacifists are bad" line.

Also, just because you like some forms of violence doesn't mean my pointing out that its still violence constitutes a straw man.  

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2007, 03:53:08 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob

Anywhoo, I think jason is being extremist when it comes to defining the nature of people.  Just because you're not a pacifist doesn't mean you're a violent extremist.  It's not an issue of black or white.


I never said they were violent extremists, I said that they behave in much the same way PETA does, which is to say they've all got something for which either they are willing to use violence or for which they'd cheer someone else on in the use of violence.


Offline Sir_Stabbalot

  • Posts: 28
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2007, 03:53:29 AM »
There's a bit of a clash of ideologies here. Is violence ever justified? On one hand, right now it's logical to have laws in place to prevent violent crimes, but on the other hand it's still violence when enforcing it. After all, the lesser of two evils is still an evil.

Me? I don't know. The most recent example of a just war I can think of (the Allied effort in WWII) may not have been needed if an unjust war (WWI) hadn't been fought.  
"I am going away, but the State will always remain" - Louis XIV, on his deathbed.

"Chimps are like fine wine: I drink them both." - A friend of a friend of mine.

Offline UERD

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
Quote

Its perplexing that you would simultaneously argue that the distinction between pacifists and non-pacifists who only use violence for what is in your estimation good reasons is meaningless and toss out a tired rehashing of the "pacifists are bad" line.


No, you don't get it. Functionally speaking, a lot of people who would not call themselves pacifists will hold positions on the use of armed conflict during peacetime that are identical to those of pacifists. In certain, exceptional situations, though, their viewpoints will diverge- and that's where the value judgment comes in. There are people who protested the Iraq War, who would not be against advocating the use of force if, for example, Russia just one day sent five divisions across the Bering Strait and began razing Alaskan and Canadian cities one by one. And there are people who protested the war, who would be against using force in that situation.

Quote

Also, just because you like some forms of violence doesn't mean my pointing out that its still violence constitutes a straw man.


Yes, it is. Earlier in the thread, this is what you said:

Quote

99% of the people in the world are terrible people.

Quote

I just said that 99%+ of people are hypocritical about one thing or another

Quote

Using violence to force others to agree with one's point of view hardly seems extremist. As I said before... 99%+ of people are willing to do that.


Your definition of 'violence' or 'violent people' is clearly not the same as mine. I hardly think a defensive war counts as 'forcing a view upon someone else using violence'- unless that view happens to be 'you can't kill my family and take my land without good reason'.

So what you're saying is this:

- 99% of people are willing to use violence to force their views on others.
- 99% of people are 'terrible' (we'll take that to mean that their worldviews are wrong).

Where does that leave the 'defensive war' people? We'll take the first extreme: complete overlap between those two groups. Either sharing that 1% with the pacifists (which makes the number far too small) or in that 99% of violence-imposing people (which contradicts the definition). Neither makes any sense at all. If we take the second extreme (least overlap possible), we come to an even stranger conclusion.

Quote

The most recent example of a just war I can think of (the Allied effort in WWII) may not have been needed if an unjust war (WWI) hadn't been fought.


You're talking about the European theatre of war. We should remember that it was the Asian theatre of war that drew the US into the war in the first place.  
"I'm looking for shrunken heads w/ DVD playback options. I figure I can hang them in my car like dice. Will you help me?"
- thatguy

"Can you shoot out customizable fireballs? Then why should your Mii be able to?"
- vudu

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
And yet Jason still does not provide citation for his so called factual numbers.

Still waiting on some sources there buddy.

Offline decoyman

  • is a raging alcoholic (and Moppy's #1 fan)
  • Score: 8
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2007, 08:09:29 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
Wait wait... decoyman... If I eat live babies on a regular basis, then come out and talk about how horrible abortion is, does his mean people should listen to me about how horrible abortion is (assuming I'm using real facts and all)?  I have a hard time listening to a speech from the pot about how black the kettle is....


Well, that's the question, UB, and it's a philosophical one, I admit. Your metaphor is flawed, however, and a bit extreme. A better comparison would be if you regularly had abortions (gender-specific impossibilities aside, of course ), then maybe had a change of heart and went on the pill so you wouldn't have to have abortions anymore. If you then went off about how horrible abortion is, you may very well be considered a hypocrite. On the other hand, if your scientific reasoning was well-researched and accurate, why would you be any different from any of the scientists, politicians, etc. whose positive social impacts live on to this day despite their personal shortcomings?

Now, it's one thing to categorize a person. It isn't (or shouldn't, at least) be so easy to categorize a group made up of diverse individuals. PETA undoubtedly has members who aren't so fanatical and crazy – people who are genuinely trying to do the right thing. If this came from them as a means to positively promote their views, why should we not take it for what it's worth?

There are other problems with this game, but for me, the fact that it's from PETA doesn't preclude me from at least considering its worth. Come on, talk about the message's REAL shortcomings (like lack of citing evidence for these claims) before you discredit the whole thing. Saying, "Oh, it's from PETA, don't pay any attention to it," just shows shortsightedness. Come on, I'm up for debating this, but you guys are going to have to give me a better counter-argument than that.

Edit: UERD (and others) have said it well.
Twitter
3DS Friend Code: 3067-7420-5671 (Aaronaut)

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2007, 08:27:57 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
And yet Jason still does not provide citation for his so called factual numbers.

Still waiting on some sources there buddy.


I'm too lazy to find online versions of all my sources, here's the sort of methodology used, however:

The are 300,000 Quakers on the planet, according to the Quakers themselves. They also say approximately 1/3 of them live in North America. This seems to agree with the claims of a University of Virginia study that said there are "fewer than 100,000 Quakers in the United States".

Quakers are typically a peace church... the bulk of its members would be pacifists. Since I'm interested in knowing the maximum number of pacifists there are in the United States, I'll give every member the benefit of the doubt. I'll also use 100,000 even though we know there's less. That's 100,000 people.

And then i go down the list of traditional peace churches in the United States. I get somewhere around 500,000 members of traditional peace churches.

Likewise, a cursory glance of pacifist discussions (many of which I've been a part of) reveals that the vast majority of pacifists in them are members of traditional peace churches. In my experience it's somewhere between 10:1 or 8:1 ratio. And this is without considering that a large number of those 500,000 peace church members are in churches that totally eschew modern technology and the outside world and therefore don't often engage in discussions. This suggests that there are likely far fewer than 50,000 pacifists in the united states that aren't members of traditional peace churches. The margin of error on this estimate is one of the biggest variables in my calculations though, and given the relatively small portion of pacifists I've run into in the antiwar movement and in other discussions... this is perhaps off by as much as 200,000.

My estimate of how many there most likely are is 400,000-500,000... my maximum, assuming all the margins of error are underestimations, would be around 750,000. This is 0.25% of the population of the United States. My minimum is 200,000, or less than 0.1% of the population of the United States.




Offline UncleBob

  • (PATRON)
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 99
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2007, 09:34:48 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
I never said they were violent extremists, I said that they behave in much the same way PETA does, which is to say they've all got something for which either they are willing to use violence or for which they'd cheer someone else on in the use of violence.


You think 99% of the population behaves in the same way PETA does.... by planting explosives and killing innocent people because they disagree with them?
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline jasonditz

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2007, 11:22:30 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
I never said they were violent extremists, I said that they behave in much the same way PETA does, which is to say they've all got something for which either they are willing to use violence or for which they'd cheer someone else on in the use of violence.


You think 99% of the population behaves in the same way PETA does.... by planting explosives and killing innocent people because they disagree with them?


PETA has done no such thing. I think this bizarre consensus that has developed here that PETA is essentially al-Qaeda for vegetarians is a source of a lot of the disagreement here.

Offline UERD

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:Nintendo, 2d platformers, evil Colonel Sanders Spiders, what's not to like?
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2007, 11:27:05 AM »
Animal Liberation Front
Earth Liberation Front

Also from the PETA article:

Quote

Ingrid Newkirk is firm in her support of direct action. Both she and PETA have been criticized for providing financial support to Animal Liberation Front (ALF) activists when they were faced with legal action against them...PETA funds individual activists and activist groups, some with "links to extremists."[22] This includes links to the ALF and Earth Liberation Front (ELF), which the Counterterrorism department of the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation have named as "special interest extremism organizations" and "as a serious terrorist threat.[25]

Rod Coronado, a former ALF activist, received $64,000 from the group and two months later another $38,240 as a loan which has never been paid back to fund his legal defense when he was convicted of having set fire to a Michigan State University research lab in 1992. PETA claimed a tax refund from the Internal Revenue Service for the donation after the arson took place


If you want the sources, you can go to the original article, which is well-documented.  
"I'm looking for shrunken heads w/ DVD playback options. I figure I can hang them in my car like dice. Will you help me?"
- thatguy

"Can you shoot out customizable fireballs? Then why should your Mii be able to?"
- vudu