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Offline MaryJane

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Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« on: July 29, 2007, 06:29:47 AM »
Now that the series is complete with the release of "Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows" I thought I'd just point a few of my thoughts on the series overall, the last book, and the movies. I'm eventually going to re-read the entire series 1-7 again, I really love the series.

I'm one of those people who relate to the Harry Potter series in two ways;

1. The feeling of not belonging and always wishing that there was some other reality in which if nothing else, I could feel accepted, purely for who I am. Harry only found this in a few people, namely the Weasly's and Hermione Granger, but even that was enough, as it would have been for me, especially with Ginny Weasly .

2. The desire to have something more than a mundane life. Instead the wish for a life of the constantly extraordinary, random changes, new explorations, and of course magic.

With that behind me, I loved the series, I'll timidly admit to living through Harry Potter while reading the stories, which is why I was at first extremely disappointed by the 5th book in the series. I wish the Harry in the book was more like the Harry in the movie, which gave a lot less resistance to the idea of taking a stand against Professor Umbridge, the Ministry, and Voldemort. J.K Rowling is a very talented writer and until the 7th book I thought the pace of the books was close to perfect. The environments were well set up the character relationships were also superbly done, never overdone. I also enjoyed the fact that her main themes of Love, and Choice, were never lost. Love isn't really too important to me in the overall scheme of things, sure I would like to find love, but my previous statement is in light that love is also a choice. Choosing is the most important aspect of human life for me. I hate to see these people who blindly follow strong, charasmatic, and/or, popular leaders. That's just me though, I almost never let another persons ideas influence my own, unless after careful deliberation of at least a week, proves that their idea is superior to mine, but no matter who is it that tells me, I first search within myself before agreeing with their opinion. I hardly ever take advice, and I almost never give it. I will however give some here, no matter what it is you do, make sure that you are the one choosing it, not only will it ensure happiness, but it will also ensure that there isn't anyone else to blame, or thank for your failures and accomplishments. We all need help, but that help should at least start within us.



While I loved the 7th book, and am actually looking forward to reading it again, there were a good number of points in the story where I just wanted her to move on. Especially the times Harry, Hermione, and Ron (while he was there), were hiding out, trying to figure out where to find the Horcruxes. I think she may have been trying to convey some of there helplessness, and humanity in these long pauses, and they were nicely punctuated by frequent(compared to the other books) Voldemort appearances and consequent battles. The resolution of the story was quite nice. I loved the fact that Snape was vindicated, and shown to truly be a Gryffindor in his bravery. I also liked the conversation Dumbledore and Harry had near the end, in which Dumbledore was also vindicated and we are again shown his great genius and intuition, his role as a father figure to Harry never ended and I liked that a lot. However, I do have one serious gripe with the book, the epilogue was horrible. It was inconsistent and mostly pointless. I get that she wanted to say that Voldemort really was dead and that there was no way for him to come back, and since she skipped so far ahead there really isn't a story left for Harry Potter. However, besides the pointless conversation (except where Harry spoke to his son Albus before he boarded the Hogwarts Express), and strange meeting with Malfoy in which it would appear he went back to his private Dark Arts, although Harry saved his life, the thing that annoyed me most of all was the fact that Tonks and Lupin son after 19 years of life, was still at school... How does this make any sense???? Originally I gave the benefit of the doubt and said maybe it took awhile to rebuild Hogwarts, then I remembered that we're talking about wizards here. How shocked was Harry to see that his old house hadn't been rebuilt  only to discover it was left as a memorial. Why would it take the ENTIRE Ministry of Magic a long time to rebuild Hogwarts? Maybe, just maybe it would take them a year if you want to give them the maximum amount of leeway(sp?) but 2? I don't see that happening. Other than the epilogue and the slower parts, I loved the 7th and final installment of Harry Potter.


I loved the first two movies, most of their inconsistencies with the books could be excused with the constraints of making a movie (i.e time, and visuals(you can't really display the internal thoughts of a character)). I just wish they would have just let Chris Columbus direct all of the movies. I didn't like the 3rd movie too much, and while I liked the 4th one I felt it was a little overdone, and even though I loved the 5th movie, I did not like the whole wispy shadow (or light in the case of the Order of the Pheonix) movements and battles. Having one director for all the movies would have also kept the visuals consistent. The landscapes, castle design, and clothing design (why oh why do they have students wearing muggle clothing??) would have been better left in the hands of one instead of changing movie to movie since the 3rd. Overall though the movies have done a good job of representing the books, and granting people who don't read a look into the greatly magical world that is Harry Potter.
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Offline matt oz

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »
I didn't like the epilogue either.  I think I read that she's had that written for years, which is why the style didn't fit in with this book.  Rowling has obviously grown as a writer over the last decade, and having the epilogue after the final chapter really proved that.

Regarding Lupin's son, I think he was just on the train to say goodbye to his girlfriend, Bill and Fleur's daughter, who is still at Hogwarts.

While reading, I had issues with the pacing, and kept hoping for SOMETHINGANYTHING!!!! to happen.  And of course all the instances of sheer luck suspended my disbelief even further than usual.  (ie. Harry saying Voldemort's name, being captured and sent to Malfoy Manor, hearing Bellatrix talk about her vault, and figuring out there must be a Horcrux there, having the power to Imperius several people at once, survive the curses in the vault, free a dragon, etc etc.)

Instead of the epilogue, I would've preferred something along the lines of a Daily  Prophet article, maybe 10 or 15 years later, which commemorated the Battle of Hogwarts.  Something that listed all the deaths that occurred, and what happened to different major characters.  Like, did Kingsley remain Minister of Magic, what happened to all the Hogwarts professors, Dumbledore's Army members, etc.

Overall though, I really enjoyed the book despite the few weaknesses.  And Dobby's death probably upset me more than any other death in the history of the series.  That was so freakin sad.
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Offline mantidor

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 12:58:24 PM »
I just came from seeing the last movie.

It was bad, I've never really liked harry potter, but anything with fantasy has my attention. In the past movies, as dumb as I found them, there was at least some sort of story arc there, something that was solved, here nothing was solved! it was three hours of nothing! and there wasn't enough flying or weird creatures either sadly, thats basically the only reason I see the movies.

I really don't get the hype in general, I dont get it for the Lord of the Rings too, which might be the reason, maybe I just don't like fantasy...but that is simply not true, I LOVE fantasy, I love it to death, but these two do nothing for me. They are boring or completely illogical, or both sometimes.
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 01:01:56 PM »
You didn't like LoTR!?!?!?!

Offline mantidor

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 01:25:42 PM »
Dragons fighting giant eagles, awesome, (yes I know they are not "dragons", but who cares),  huge battles with thousands of soldiers and weird elephants, great. The Balrog fight was awesome as well, etc, etc, etc. The "dramatic" part, the supposedly important part, was just annoying, the plot is too damn boring! it drags and drags forever, I didn't feel any conflict, any interest at all at the outcome, I really didn't care if Frodo was going to throw the ring to destroy it or just keep it, for me those scenes were just a waste of time, Gollum was a waste of time.

These worlds, specially Harry Potter, seem to bring up way too often something out of nowhere to solve the problem or to explain why someone did something the way they did, they are really the epitome of "magic solved the problem", "deux ex machina" if you like that term better, only that is introduced with more stealth.

I don't exactly hate them of course, theres plenty of things there to like, but I will never understand why Harry Potter is the definitive children book of this decade, it just doesn't make sense to me. The same for LoTR and how is the definitive work on fantasy in general, one day I hope to be able to finish the books but when I start I just get bored.

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Offline matt oz

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 02:44:47 PM »
mantidor, Order of the Phoenix wasn't the richest in plot of the series.  There's a lot of set-up for the final two books, ie- Harry and Voldemort's connection, the prophecy, the corrupt magical government.  Movies 6 and 7 should be incredible though, because there's a huge (and I mean huge) battle in each of them.

I really hope they bring Emma Thompson in for the 7th movie, just so I can see her throwing crystal balls at Death Eaters.  That made me laugh.

edit: changed the above actress to the one I meant to say in the first place.
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Offline Svevan

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2007, 09:09:08 PM »
I love you Mantidor, but

Quote

Dragons fighting giant eagles, awesome, (yes I know they are not "dragons", but who cares), huge battles with thousands of soldiers and weird elephants, great. The Balrog fight was awesome as well, etc, etc, etc.

there goes your credibility.

The action in LotR was just about the worst thing in the movie, other than the stupid cinematography and the bastardization of Tolkien. I'm not apt to defend the "dramatic" parts of the films, since some of them (Two Towers, for instance) do have long stretches of "Booo-ring!" but that owes more to Jackson's idiotic long distance filming and reliance on post-production re-editing. All in all, if LotR had to be made into an action picture, I'd agree with your assessment that half of each film was great while the other half was a bunch of talk. Too bad LotR should've never been made into an action picture.

As for HP, I've got lots of thoughts on the books, in particular that the epilogue was too personal for a story so vast and "epic," and that you can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to a character sacrificing himself to kill Satan. Harry's return to normal life is pretty much the worst thing to happen to the series, but that's not saying a lot since very few bad things have happened to the series. I still love the books, even if I don't think Harry should've survived.

As for the films, HP 5 plays like a "Greatest Hits from Harry Potter 5: the novel" film, which is fine by me since I've read the book. The best film is HP3. I'll get into why once people disagree with me.


edit: Oh god I'm going to look like a geek for saying this.
Quote

I loved the first two movies, most of their inconsistencies with the books could be excused with the constraints of making a movie (i.e time, and visuals(you can't really display the internal thoughts of a character)). I just wish they would have just let Chris Columbus direct all of the movies. I didn't like the 3rd movie too much, and while I liked the 4th one I felt it was a little overdone, and even though I loved the 5th movie, I did not like the whole wispy shadow (or light in the case of the Order of the Pheonix) movements and battles. Having one director for all the movies would have also kept the visuals consistent. The landscapes, castle design, and clothing design (why oh why do they have students wearing muggle clothing??) would have been better left in the hands of one instead of changing movie to movie since the 3rd. Overall though the movies have done a good job of representing the books, and granting people who don't read a look into the greatly magical world that is Harry Potter.

The movies are "non-canon" meaning they aren't officially sanctioned by J.K. and therefore don't have to have consistency, outside of the recurring actors. (BTW, some of the actors haven't recurred, such as the girl who played Padma Patil and the guy who played Tom Riddle, but OMG I'm geeking out) Screenwriters, composers, and producers have changed. Each film has its own look and feel, which is more organic I think than being tied down to a specific style and carrying it out for 10 years even though the last three books hadn't been published when they started. Not to mention that one person directing 7 films within a series within the span of ten years = burnout. And beyond that, the producers chose directors who emphasized certain aspects of the story and world. So HP3 emphasizes teenage discomfort and the beauty of Hogwarts, HP4 has great special effects, numbers 1 and 2 have a naivety and innocence with few to no subversive elements intruding (unlike 3), and number 5 is dark and character driven.

I like the method, because, in the words of Peter Greenaway, continuity is boring.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2007, 09:23:47 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
I love you Mantidor, but

Quote

Dragons fighting giant eagles, awesome, (yes I know they are not "dragons", but who cares), huge battles with thousands of soldiers and weird elephants, great. The Balrog fight was awesome as well, etc, etc, etc.

there goes your credibility.

The action in LotR was just about the worst thing in the movie, other than the stupid cinematography and the bastardization of Tolkien. I'm not apt to defend the "dramatic" parts of the films, since some of them (Two Towers, for instance) do have long stretches of "Booo-ring!" but that owes more to Jackson's idiotic long distance filming and reliance on post-production re-editing. All in all, if LotR had to be made into an action picture, I'd agree with your assessment that half of each film was great while the other half was a bunch of talk. Too bad LotR should've never been made into an action picture.

As for HP, I've got lots of thoughts on the books, in particular that the epilogue was too personal for a story so vast and "epic," and that you can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to a character sacrificing himself to kill Satan. Harry's return to normal life is pretty much the worst thing to happen to the series, but that's not saying a lot since very few bad things have happened to the series. I still love the books, even if I don't think Harry should've survived.

As for the films, HP 5 plays like a "Greatest Hits from Harry Potter 5: the novel" film, which is fine by me since I've read the book. The best film is HP3. I'll get into why once people disagree with me.


edit: Oh god I'm going to look like a geek for saying this.
Quote

I loved the first two movies, most of their inconsistencies with the books could be excused with the constraints of making a movie (i.e time, and visuals(you can't really display the internal thoughts of a character)). I just wish they would have just let Chris Columbus direct all of the movies. I didn't like the 3rd movie too much, and while I liked the 4th one I felt it was a little overdone, and even though I loved the 5th movie, I did not like the whole wispy shadow (or light in the case of the Order of the Pheonix) movements and battles. Having one director for all the movies would have also kept the visuals consistent. The landscapes, castle design, and clothing design (why oh why do they have students wearing muggle clothing??) would have been better left in the hands of one instead of changing movie to movie since the 3rd. Overall though the movies have done a good job of representing the books, and granting people who don't read a look into the greatly magical world that is Harry Potter.

The movies are "non-canon" meaning they aren't officially sanctioned by J.K. and therefore don't have to have consistency, outside of the recurring actors. (BTW, some of the actors haven't recurred, such as the girl who played Padma Patil and the guy who played Tom Riddle, but OMG I'm geeking out) Screenwriters, composers, and producers have changed. Each film has its own look and feel, which is more organic I think than being tied down to a specific style and carrying it out for 10 years even though the last three books hadn't been published when they started. Not to mention that one person directing 7 films within a series within the span of ten years = burnout. And beyond that, the producers chose directors who emphasized certain aspects of the story and world. So HP3 emphasizes teenage discomfort and the beauty of Hogwarts, HP4 has great special effects, numbers 1 and 2 have a naivety and innocence with few to no subversive elements intruding (unlike 3), and number 5 is dark and character driven.

I like the method, because, in the words of Peter Greenaway, continuity is boring.


Attacking LOTR films and insulting Peter Jackson=loss of credibility
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2007, 09:26:40 PM »
Quote

Attacking LOTR films and insulting Peter Jackson=loss of credibility


QFT

Peter Jackson loves the Lord of the Rings and lovingly made those films, far better than anyone could have done.

Quote

Too bad LotR should've never been made into an action picture.


Well thankfully you're not a person in charge of making those decisions as you would have deprived the world of one of the greatest film trilogies ever made.

It would be impossible to translate everything the books held for the series onto the big screen and anyone who denies that is just lying to themselves.

Offline MaryJane

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 01:58:44 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
The movies are "non-canon" meaning they aren't officially sanctioned by J.K. and therefore don't have to have consistency, outside of the recurring actors. (BTW, some of the actors haven't recurred, such as the girl who played Padma Patil and the guy who played Tom Riddle, but OMG I'm geeking out) Screenwriters, composers, and producers have changed. Each film has its own look and feel, which is more organic I think than being tied down to a specific style and carrying it out for 10 years even though the last three books hadn't been published when they started. Not to mention that one person directing 7 films within a series within the span of ten years = burnout. And beyond that, the producers chose directors who emphasized certain aspects of the story and world. So HP3 emphasizes teenage discomfort and the beauty of Hogwarts, HP4 has great special effects, numbers 1 and 2 have a naivety and innocence with few to no subversive elements intruding (unlike 3), and number 5 is dark and character driven.

I like the method, because, in the words of Peter Greenaway, continuity is boring.



I understand what you're saying, although I disagree, it makes sense. I still would have preferred continuity, because the books were all written with the same person behind them, and they never got boring, at least not in their entirety.

Also about the movies being "non-canon" J.K Rowling gets credited as a screenwriter in at least the 3rd movie. As I'm sure you know screenwriting is a whole other ballgame compared to just get credited for writing the books the movie is based upon. i.e Tolkien did not get credited as a screenwriter for the LotR movies which I freaking loved btw.

About Tonks and Lupin's son, I suppose Matt Oz's take on things could be correct, I still have a problem with the fact that he didn't live with Harry. I know he was only 17 at the time, but with Tonks and Lupin dead, and Tonks' father dead, responsibility of raising him should have fallen to Harry, much like Sirius Black wanted to take care of Harry after his parents were killed. The only mitigating circumstance in that instance was the fact he needed better protection than Sirius could have offered, oh and Dumbledore obviously thought he had betrayed the Potters.

I also was a little shaken by Dobby's death, I stopped when I read it, I actually couldn't believe it. At the very least, he died free, and he died helping the person he loved above all else.

I don't see how the 3rd movie could be the best when it was the one that strayed the furthest from the books, maybe I've just forgotten what teenage angst feels like, but I don't think so because I deal with it all the time, and not meaning to brag, but I think I deal with it pretty compassionately. I'm interested to hear why you think so Svevan.

Matt oz also hit the nail on the head about the 5th and 6th books and subsequent movies, they are mostly set up for the 7th book/movie. The resolution of both of them in my mind, is that Harry is alone. He loses his two most prominent father figures, and takes steps in defeating Voldemort. In the end he has to fight Voldemort alone.  Even though we discover that Dumbledore has been helping Harry posthumously, it all comes down to him 1v1 against Voldemort.

I didn't agree with what you said about the "lucky" situations. I thought them finding out about the vault and the Horcrux was more of a bad situation turned good, I mean they payed heavily for that information. Not only was Hermione tortured, but as we've already been saying Dobby died. Also they were sort of saved by the sword of Gryffindor, which may not have been directly Dumbledore's plan, but it was always meant to help them.  
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2007, 04:33:20 AM »
Meh, I thought Peter Jackson did terrible with The Lord of the Rings.  There were problems everywhere, all throughout all three movies.

Offline Svevan

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2007, 06:36:42 AM »
Post moved to new thread.  
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Offline matt oz

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 07:09:35 AM »
So... how bout that 7th book, eh?  Anyone else have any thoughts on it?
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2007, 01:45:27 AM »
Just finished it! /happy

Frankly, all you nagging gits can crawl up a troll's arse for all I care.

Well, okay, one part DID strike me weird, and this is a BIG spoiler.Harry and Ginny have FIVE kids!?!?!?!? Good god I knew she was hot for him but... CURSES JINXES AND HEX-A-LOT what is it with the weasleys?!?!?!? I mean... Potter's to blame too but Ginny must be even more of a go-getter than she was in the sixth book!!!  
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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2007, 02:52:29 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Just finished it! /happy

Frankly, all you nagging gits can crawl up a troll's arse for all I care.

Well, okay, one part DID strike me weird, and this is a BIG spoiler.Harry and Ginny have FIVE kids!?!?!?!? Good god I knew she was hot for him but... CURSES JINXES AND HEX-A-LOT what is it with the weasleys?!?!?!? I mean... Potter's to blame too but Ginny must be even more of a go-getter than she was in the sixth book!!!


Kairon I'm pretty sure when they say the 5 of them, they mean Harry, Ginny and their 3 kids, Albus Severus, Lily, and James. Maybe I read it wrong, but I could've sworn that's what was meant.

As far as the book goes, all I have to say is, predictable. The clues to the ending were scattered across the 6th book, and throughout the 7th. The only thing I had predicted that turned out not to be true is that Dumbledore was actually alive (or would somehow come back to life). As we know this didn't happen. The book was nowhere near as grand as I hoped it to be, and it pushed no boundaries and didn't move into any new territory. Overall I am very disappointed in the book, and I feel like Rowling didn't even know where she was going with it for the first 500 pages. Oh well.
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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2007, 04:38:14 AM »
I guess the way you hardcore HP fans feel about the 7th book is the way I feel about Twilight Princess...

But anyways! What does the future hjold for the books characters? Beyond the epilogue, I guess the following!
-We find out that Loony Lovegood married Longbottom!
and
-Ron's little girl (Rosie)falls HARD for Draco's dark, handsome, son(Scorpius)!
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2007, 05:16:24 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
I guess the way you hardcore HP fans feel about the 7th book is the way I feel about Twilight Princess...

But anyways! What does the future hjold for the books characters? Beyond the epilogue, I guess the following!
-We find out that Loony Lovegood married Longbottom!
and
-Ron's little girl (Rosie)falls HARD for Draco's dark, handsome, son(Scorpius)!



Don't say you hardcore HP fans because I thought the book was amazing. It was the most emotion packed book of the series. I can't help but think that if people didn't have years to analyze clues that it wouldn't have been so "predictable".  
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Offline matt oz

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2007, 06:49:28 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
But anyways! What does the future hjold for the books characters? Beyond the epilogue, I guess the following!
-We find out that Loony Lovegood married Longbottom!
and
-Ron's little girl (Rosie)falls HARD for Draco's dark, handsome, son(Scorpius)!



Actually, JK Rowling answered a bunch of questions in a fan chat somewhere.  Luna doesn't marry Neville, she marries an author or something, someone who shares her desire for discovering new (fake) animals.

Harry becomes head of the Auror department at the Ministry.  Ron goes into business with George before he joins Harry as an Auror.  Hermione also works at the Ministry of Magic as Head of something or other.

She didn't answer anything about the main characters' children, though.  Personally, I wouldn't want to see a Weasley/Malfoy romance.

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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2007, 07:09:21 AM »
I think it's supposed to be predictable, in a sense.  The series has gotten past the point of tricks and turns and reached a point of inevitable finality.  We know, from the start of the book, from the start of the very first book, that Harry will have to fight Voldemort and that at least one of them will die.  By the time we reach the seventh book, it has picked up so much momentum, we're being driven along by fate and nothing can stop what's going to happen.  Maryjane mentioned that a frequent theme of the books are choice, and that's true.  But by now the choices have been made, and we must see their consequences.  And honestly, some choices are merely illusions, choices that must be made a certain way.  Dumbledore tells Harry he could just board the train and move "on", but we know that won't happen.  It can't happen, because of who Harry is and what he must do.
My point being, I don't think you're supposed to be surprised by anything, or at least not by much.

So now for a few random comments about the book:

I'll be honest, I hardly read the books for the plot.  The plot's nice, but I read it for the characters (as I think most do).  The plot certainly helps reveal the characters, their backgrounds and motivations and flaws and triumphs, but that's its primary purpose.  So I love the parts where the characters are gathered and content.  There's very little of that in this book, but there's some: the wedding, Shell cottage, a few of Ron and Hermione and Harry's moments together.  I liked in the previous books where we'd just see the characters talking and going about a normal day at Hogwarts.  That was the charm of the books, really.  So I liked those moments, few as they were here.

However, I also liked the first half of this book, where at nearly three hundred pages in or however much they still haven't found any Horcruxes, and things seem more desperate than anything: they have no plan, no clues, Ron leaves them, Harry's wand breaks, and every turn they take leads them into more danger.  And then, in one moment, when Harry sees the doe, gets the sword, and reunites with Ron, from that point on everything skyrockets toward victory.

I predicted quite a lot of what happened in this book.  I knew Snape would be vindicated; the way Rowling wrote the scene of Dumbledore's death, the way the two looked at each other before Snape cast the killing curse, I knew it had been arranged.  I was not sure why, though.  I think his love of Lily was brilliant and added so much emotional depth to the book.  Another recurring theme in the book, and I suppose it relates to Choice, is children and how they grow up.  That disparity between who a person is between their youth and adulthood, and the factors that affect it.  No one in the books is perfectly good or perfectly evil, even Voldemort (although he has become, perhaps, wholly evil).  There is choice involved.  But we're forced to consider the factors that lead to what choices are made.  We see Harry, sheltered and kept safe for most of his life, and having a pretty miserable childhood.  But when he turns eleven, he's instantly introduced to a place he can call home (although the same can be said of Voldemort, Riddle, and others).  But he was not raised on thoughts of dark magic and lineage, he is instantly united with people like Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore, Fred and George, people who care for him and instantly put him on the right track.  Voldemort didn't have this guidance, and it seems he probably had a more miserable childhood than Harry.  Snape was torn between a loyalty to his family, what he'd been raised and conditioned to believe, and his love for Lily.  We feel triumphant when Harry succeeds, but we also feel immense pity for these others, those who haven't exactly won, who made the wrong choices, and maybe only because they weren't introduced to the right circumstances.  We especially feel for Snape, who managed to make the right choice in spite of immense pain and still died alone, with only a trace of solace, seeing Harry and looking into his eyes for a moment, knowing that he would learn the truth.

Anyway, I've probably said way too much about this.  Just a thing or two more.

First off, I also felt weird about the epilogue.  I don't think it's bad, per se, and I liked aspects of it, but I feel it jumped too far ahead.  I would have liked a moment of peace just a day or a week after the finale, a gathering of friends looking toward the future, still needing to get over the tragedies and to rebuild, but to do so together.  A note of ambiguous optimism.

Dobby dying was sad, but not unexpected, and a noble death.  The one that really caught me off guard was Fred.  I'm still reeling from that one.  Like they said in the book, how could things exist without Fred?  Maybe it's just me, because they were two of my favorite characters, and both seemed to need each other to exist.  That one hit kinda hard.
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2007, 08:43:23 AM »
I agree with your thoughts on the planned predictability of the books, but it's also why I didn't think of it as being predictable. They were more obvious than predictable. As you said, the previous books all let us know what would happen at the end. (Personally I never bought Dumbledore's reason for Snape trying to save Harry in his first two Quidditch games, and now because of what Harry saw in the pensieve I'm inclined to believe I was right.) It was the method through which these ends were achieved that made the story. We knew Harry would kill Voldemort, whether this would lead to Harry's own death was well put into the minds of everyone when J.K Rowling announced that there would be no more Harry Potter books after this one. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (I believe it was) killed off Sherlock Holmes so that he wouldn't have to write any more stories, although he eventually brought him back due to the intense demand, you see the point. We also knew Snape would be vindicated, Dumbledore said he trusted Snape, that should have been enough for everyone, let's face it, in the time of his life we are introduced by him he was never wrong, except perhaps in waiting to tell Harry his fate, but even that worked out for the better. Oh he also said Sirius's death was partly his fault, but I guess no one is perfect after all.
I also think that when Harry used the ring he brought Dumbledore back to life in the same temporary state, but as he is the greatest wizard who ever lived, he was able to guide Harry in that "middle ground".

About the begining and end of the book, I understand both their meanings they were also "predictable", if you will. What I didn't like is how the got to them. The opposite of the rest of the book IMO. Not the entire begining though, just parts were too much, there were far too many days of them finding anything, not even that it was too many days, we just spent too many of them with the characters, there were so many non-events that could have been skipped over, or joined to another events. The ending, was too far ahead. We know nothing of the aftermath of the battle. So much was lost and so much more was won, an or epilogue, or even better another chapter before the epilogue discuss the direct through 2 year aftermath of the battle would have been a much better finale, or keep the 19 year afterward, because that is her method of ending the series, we've already seen Harry grown up, she skipped so much there's no longer anything to talk about. Of course she could always go back, introduce new villians, give more depth to the side characters (I really like Luna and Neville have much bigger roles in this one, it was sad in the 6th book when they were the only ones who wanted the D.A to continue and the only ones to help during the invasion, at least this way, it wasn't all in vain).

Now I've said too much...

 
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2007, 09:38:19 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: matt oz
Actually, JK Rowling answered a bunch of questions in a fan chat somewhere.  Luna doesn't marry Neville, she marries an author or something, someone who shares her desire for discovering new (fake) animals.

Harry becomes head of the Auror department at the Ministry.  Ron goes into business with George before he joins Harry as an Auror.  Hermione also works at the Ministry of Magic as Head of something or other.

She didn't answer anything about the main characters' children, though.  Personally, I wouldn't want to see a Weasley/Malfoy romance.


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Offline decoyman

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RE:Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2007, 05:04:31 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
...We especially feel for Snape, who managed to make the right choice in spite of immense pain and still died alone, with only a trace of solace, seeing Harry and looking into his eyes for a moment, knowing that he would learn the truth.


I thought Snape wanted to see Lily's eyes once more... that was why his last words were, "Look.... at.... me...."
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2007, 09:15:02 PM »
... *epiphany*
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Harry Potter (Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2007, 09:28:17 PM »
Holy crap, that's incredible.  Brilliant, decoyman, I can't believe I didn't think of that.  Makes the ending that much better.
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