Topic: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?

[Pittbboi]

Yes, Golden, and Wii Fit is IT!

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Yes, Golden, and Wii Fit is IT!

Not sure if that is sarcasm or not! But I do think Wii fit will have a similar impact Wii sports had, and will probably cause shortages once again (if they even let up before it comes out).

[Ian Sane]

"We all know the Halo series has had significant upgrades from game to game."

There's only been two games.  And Halo 3 won't sell Xbox 360s in a significant way.  Just wait.

"if people hated rehashes why the hell does Madden sell 10 zillion copies every year?"

No one buys a console for Madden because it's on every console.  You pick a console for a different reason and then get Madden on it.  The PS2 wasn't the market leader because it had Madden on it.  Grand Theft Auto 3 sold PS2s because it was different than other games before it.

"Bottom line is, people just thought all Nintendo stuff was g@y* and for little kids so they didn't bother with it."
"it is the image the series has that matters most."

Okay so how is the Gamecube's failing not Nintendo's fault when they made no serious effort to change that image?  "Everyone thinks Mario is for kids so let's just pepper our console with an insane amount of Mario spinoffs!  Oh that didn't work.  Well obviously it's not our fault."  There are different theories as to why Nintendo couldn't get back on track with the Gamecube but I haven't seen any of them that don't put a fair bit of blame on Nintendo themselves.  Everyone knew what they were up against but Nintendo didn't do anything about it.  That's not a real effort and thus proves nothing about Nintendo's potential to compete in the traditional gaming market.  The only way I see Nintendo being unable to compete in the old market is because they're too clueless and stupid to ever learn from their mistakes.  Yeah for that Nintendo looking at a different market was their only option but they don't HAVE to be stubborn idiots.  If they never learn then this audience won't last either.  They'll f*ck up, fail to recognize they did so, and they'll be screwed again.  Nintendo has always had the talent and commitment to quality to compete with anyone.  Their problems have always been at a corporate level with poor marketing, blatantly dumb decisions, and refusal to admit mistakes.

[BlackNMild2k1]

All I have to say is that Nintendo better do a late night infomercial advertising WiiFit and then have a QVC/HSN segment selling it too.
Guaranteed blockbuster that will skyrocket Nintendo way beyond the heavens that it is currently ascending to.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Obviously Wii hitting 9 million and pretty much stomping the competition is because of Nintendo being stupid and not learning form their mistakes. I'm sorry Ian but you can shove your head in the sand all you want but Nintendo has changed, they have adapted, and are finally making a big impact once again.  

[Pittbboi]

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Not sure if that is sarcasm or not! But I do think Wii fit will have a similar impact Wii sports had, and will probably cause shortages once again (if they even let up before it comes out).

Sarcasm...

And I honestly don't think Wii Fit will have near the same impact Wii Sports did for reasons I listed in another thread, I think. Wii Sports-like DDR-was physically demanding and a good workout as side-effects to its main purpose: being a fun game to play (if a little on the simplistic side, in my opinion). WiiFit, on the other hand, is just a glorified scale and exercise simulator bundle with "fun" and "gameplay" as after-thoughts. I think Nintendo got cocky with their whole "Wii will change the world!" thing, and Wii Fit just may be the result. Americans have never taken kindly to products that blatantly yell "EXERCISE!!" at them, and that looks to be exactly what Wii Fit is doing...just not as effective as actual workout equipment.

This video actually highlights perfectly why I think Wii Fit will be surrounded by initial buzz, but ultimately fail. And it's quite funny:
Wii Fit Parody

[GoldenPhoenix]

And I think you will be wrong yet again Pittbboi, just wait and see.

[Nick DiMola]

Well here is the exact point where you and I disagree Ian, Nintendo shouldn't have started making mainstream games (for that time, "Mature" games) just to grab more marketshare. That wasn't Nintendo's style so they didn't go with it. Nintendo realized the problem wasn't that they were making the wrong games, they were just marketing them to the wrong people. Good thing Nintendo didn't do what you imply they should've done Ian, or else video games would all be the same generic sh!t.

EDIT: For clarification, when I say "That wasn't Nintendo's style" I am referring to making more Mature games, not grabbing market share.

[Pittbboi]

Well, I wasn't wrong about Wii Sports. It was never my cup of tea, but I could easily see its potential to attract non-gamers in a "what is that?" sorta way. I could see how that game just looked like Insta-Fun and it highlighted a truly innovative and inviting piece of gaming technology: the wii remote. Scales are not new. and somehow I don't think "Wii Push Ups" is going to be as big a hit with the family come Thanksgiving.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
And I think you will be wrong yet again Pittbboi, just wait and see.

QFT. I would be very surprised if Wii Fit wasn't a big hit. People are going to gobble it up, especially for the holidays.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
And I think you will be wrong yet again Pittbboi, just wait and see.

QFT. I would be very surprised if Wii Fit wasn't a big hit. People are going to gobble it up, especially for the holidays.

Well Wii Fit has been getting similar attention by the media as Wii sports did. The reason why I think it will do well is at the moment the diet/weight loss industry is rapidly growing and people are looking for "easier" ways of losing weight. While Wiifit is exercise, it also adds one key ingredience, fun, something to keep the mind occupied to the point where people don't feel they are just exercising. Interesting that Pittbboi brought up DDR, because that is a hit series as well and I think it proves my point about the interest being there for a "fun" way of getting in shape.

[Pittbboi]

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Interesting that Pittbboi brought up DDR, because that is a hit series as well and I think it proves my point about the interest being there for a "fun" way of getting in shape.

I don't think DDR is a good comparison for why Wii Fit may be successful. As I said earlier, DDR is a game that presents exciting and addictive gameplay FIRST. The brilliance of DDR is that you don't realize how physically demanding it is until the song is over and you notice how heavy you're breathing and that your shirt is drenched with sweat. The exercise sneaks up on you.

Not the case with Wii Fit. It's exercise first, and MAYBE you'll have some fun. And I'm sorry, but the game just doesn't look fun. Hoola hoop? "Watch out for the sh!t people are kicking at your head" game? The "mini-games" in Wii Fit make even WiiPlay look like Mario Galaxy.  

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Not the case with Wii Fit. It's exercise first, and MAYBE you'll have some fun. And I'm sorry, but the game just doesn't look fun. Hoola hoop? "Watch out for the sh!t people are kicking at your head" game? The "mini-games" in Wii Fit make even WiiPlay look like Mario Galaxy.

Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean that it won't appeal to anyone. I would consider myself a "hardcore," "old-school" gamer and I think it looks interesting. I'm sure there are plenty others who consider themselves the same type of gamer who agree with me. I'm also certain it will grab attention from moms and dads across the world as a great way to work out in the house and have some fun while doing so (as GP said).

[BigJim]

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Nintendo shouldn't have started making mainstream games (for that time, "Mature" games) just to grab more marketshare. That wasn't Nintendo's style so they didn't go with it. Nintendo realized the problem wasn't that they were making the wrong games, they were just marketing them to the wrong people.

What? So.... if they weren't making the wrong games but just marketing them to the wrong people, then how does that reconcile with them now still not marketing Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc etc etc to the mainstream, and instead making and marketing off-tilt stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Brain Age, etc. to them.

This change in lineup is also the very definition of a marketshare grab.      

[Pittbboi]

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I would consider myself a "hardcore," "old-school" gamer and I think it looks interesting.

I don't think it has anything to do with what kind of "gamer" a person is. My argument is that very little of what Wii Fit is looks like a game. If you can tell me where the "fun gameplay" aspect is in the way Yoga, Push-Ups, and "stick out your leg" mini-"games" are presented in Wii Fit, and I may buy that. The aspects of Wii Fit that are games just don't seem that fleshed out to me. I mean, c'mon, Roll the Ball in the Hole? As you said, it may just be me...

But heck, even most dvds nowadays come with little interactive "games" on them.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
What? So.... if they weren't making the wrong games but just marketing them wrong, then how does that reconcile with them not marketing Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc etc etc to the mainstream, and instead making and marketing off-tilt stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Brain Age, etc. to them.

This change in lineup is also the very definition of a marketshare grab.

The lineup really hasn't changed, they have just augmented it with the more casual game experiences. Those casual games are a gateway to their core franchises which will more likely appeal to the casual crowd as opposed to the "mature" gamer that only likes games with copious amounts of blood and violence. Nintendo is a family friendly company, and becoming the company everyone here seems to want them to become is impossible because it doesn't and has never fit with their company values. Of course Nintendo is trying to grab marketshare, what company wouldn't, they were just trying to grab the wrong share of the market, hence their previous failure and now success.

[Pittbboi]

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opposed to the "mature" gamer that only likes games with copious amounts of blood and violence.

Does every argument really have to be slathered with this really, really inaccurate statement?

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Nintendo is a family friendly company, and becoming the company everyone here seems to want them to become is impossible because it doesn't and has never fit with their company values.

It did, right up to the Wii. Nintendo only busts out the "Family Friendly Company" distraction when it suits them. In truth, by the end of this generation, there will most like be a healthy dose of family friendly titles on every console. The opinion, though, is that Nintendo's constant harping and catering to that market is threatening their "gamer" market.  

[Nick DiMola]

There is really nothing inaccurate about it, go talk to 10 mainstream gamers and see what their favorite games are. Madden, GTA and various other M rated violent crap. Trust me 95% of my friends are like that.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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I would consider myself a "hardcore," "old-school" gamer and I think it looks interesting.

I don't think it has anything to do with what kind of "gamer" a person is. My argument is that very little of what Wii Fit is looks like a game. If you can tell me where the "fun gameplay" aspect is in the way Yoga, Push-Ups, and "stick out your leg" mini-"games" are presented in Wii Fit, and I may buy that. The aspects of Wii Fit that are games just don't seem that fleshed out to me. I mean, c'mon, Roll the Ball in the Hole? As you said, it may just be me...

But heck, even most dvds nowadays come with little interactive "games" on them.

Wii Fit seems to be segmented into serious exercise type regiments and fun minigames that involve some amount of physical activity.  Yoga, Pushups, and Pilates are obviously not meant to be games. It gives people who exercise some information that they couldn't get without digital input that should help them track progress. We still haven't seen all of the minigames that will exist in Wii Fit, so assuming the 5 or so things we saw is all that we are going to see is being ignorant.

I don't understand why Nintendo trying to reach new audiences is such a terrible thing. The Wii had my parents playing video games (which they never do), which to me is truly a great thing. Now instead of playing some crappy board game like Pictionary, we grab up Wii Sports and go for some Bowling or Tennis.

If all you naysayers don't like it I will have to revert to Requiem's response "Deal with it." No one knows what the future holds, so sit back and see, if it isn't the experience you were hoping for go buy another gaming system. Even if it does wind up being all casual games that doesn't guarantee you won't wind up liking them.

[Pittbboi]

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There is really nothing inaccurate about it, go talk to 10 mainstream gamers and see what their favorite games are. Madden, GTA and various other M rated violent crap. Trust me 95% of my friends are like that.

That's a really bad argument. I mean, Madden is a sports title, not blood and violence. And GTA is just one series that caters to mature gamers. Mature gamers like a slew of different genres, but that SHOULD go without saying, and it's sad that that even needs to be argued. Heck, this argument can be refuted with some of Nintendo's very own games!


And, I'm sorry, but Pictionary pwns.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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There is really nothing inaccurate about it, go talk to 10 mainstream gamers and see what their favorite games are. Madden, GTA and various other M rated violent crap. Trust me 95% of my friends are like that.

That's a really bad argument. I mean, Madden is a sports title, not blood and violence. And GTA is just one series that caters to mature gamers. Mature gamers like a slew of different genres, but that SHOULD go without saying, and it's sad that that even needs to be argued. Heck, this argument can be refuted with some of Nintendo's very own games!


And, I'm sorry, but Pictionary pwns.

I wasn't arguing that Madden is violent, just that it is one of the few games the mainstream gamer gets excited about, I was just listing it as a fact not to bolster my argument. All I'm saying is that a huge portion of people who bought the PS2 bought it for just the games I had listed. It's not impossible for them to like other games, but the games they typically get excited about tend to fit that stereotype. Violence driven games are appealing to humans naturally, destruction is the natural order.  

[BigJim]

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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
What? So.... if they weren't making the wrong games but just marketing them wrong, then how does that reconcile with them not marketing Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc etc etc to the mainstream, and instead making and marketing off-tilt stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Brain Age, etc. to them.

This change in lineup is also the very definition of a marketshare grab.

The lineup really hasn't changed, they have just augmented it with the more casual game experiences. Those casual games are a gateway to their core franchises which will more likely appeal to the casual crowd as opposed to the "mature" gamer that only likes games with copious amounts of blood and violence. Nintendo is a family friendly company, and becoming the company everyone here seems to want them to become is impossible because it doesn't and has never fit with their company values. Of course Nintendo is trying to grab marketshare, what company wouldn't, they were just trying to grab the wrong share of the market, hence their previous failure and now success.

They make new types of games to market to a new audience. Since they didn't instead market the types of games they have always made to the new audience, it makes no sense to say it was nothing but a marketing screw-up and nothing changed except for who they marketed to.  

[Nick DiMola]

What I'm saying BigJim, is that they needed some new games to bring the right crowd under their wing, to get the attention on them. They needed to differentiate themselves from the rest of the market, which they weren't fitting in with. If you make the right product the media markets it for you, as we have seen with the Wii. The Wii isn't getting people talking about videogames it's getting people talking about the Wii. Now, because the right audience is looking at the Wii, you will see a greater interest in the big Nintendo classics. Nintendo for the past two generations has pretty much only been selling games to the Nintendo hardcore, though they could appeal to a much larger crowd, a crowd who has stereotyped video games as violent crap because the media has portrayed it that way. The casual crowd will enjoy Nintendo's classics more than your average gamer because of their simplicity and inviting presentation. Casual games are just a step into the door for many people.

I hope that makes sense, it's not something that is very easy to explain through writing.

[Ian Sane]

"Obviously Wii hitting 9 million and pretty much stomping the competition is because of Nintendo being stupid and not learning form their mistakes. I'm sorry Ian but you can shove your head in the sand all you want but Nintendo has changed, they have adapted, and are finally making a big impact once again."

The Wii is hitting 9 million because Nintendo is attracting a new market.  Plus the PS3 is a total bomb so that makes it easier for them to compete.  Nintendo never learned how to compete in the old market.  So if this new group treats videogames as a fad and disappears Nintendo is back to square one.  If they ever get to the point where they have to sell primarily to the old gamer market again they'll be in trouble because they never clued in to what they were doing wrong.  They dodged the problem instead of solving it.

Wii Fit looks like work to me.  Same with the vision training game.  Brain Age and Wii Sports at least relate to fun activities.  People like to play sports and like to do brain puzzles like crosswords and such.  In Japan there are "non-games" that are actually educational software like ones that teach English.  That isn't a game at all and I really don't think it would fly in the US (a different language game, obviously not English).

Considering how Nintendo thinks what applies to Japan applies everywhere I figure at some point they'll take a risk with a non-game that is TOO non-game and they'll look like idiots when they push Wii Taxes or Wii Chores as their big Christmas title and it's a huge bomb.  Wii Fit might not be the one to do it but there's a limit on how much you can dress up work like a fun activity in North America.

[Ian Sane]

"The casual crowd will enjoy Nintendo's classics more than your average gamer because of their simplicity and inviting presentation."

If that's the case then why does Nintendo feel the need to alter Zelda or Mario to be less intimidating or remark how the wheel will make Mario Kart more accessible?  If the classics were already suitable they wouldn't need to tinker with them at all.  The non-gamers are different product made for a different audience and Nintendo is altering the classic content to fit that market as well.  It's no different than if they made Mario have blood or gore.  The only difference is that simplified non-games was the path they took and so it gets more support from the fans than any route Nintendo didn't take.  Zelda did not sell as expected in Japan.  That doesn't sound like the big non-gaming group over there is interested in the old franchises.  If the non-games are just a way to attract the new audience to eventually buy the gamer games then the plan is failing big time.  Nintendo would never have to say anything about making their old franchises less intimidating if they were already suitable for the new audience.