Author Topic: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types  (Read 15642 times)

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2007, 09:54:12 AM »
I actually don't like the idea of using the GC or classic controller, I think the game should have been built around the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to show that it is possible to have an intuitive fighter on Wii. Now when you play online if someone uses the Wii esque controls they will mostly likely get mutilated online.
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Offline stevey

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2007, 09:57:41 AM »
I don't think the sideways wiimote is going to be unbalanced because it doesn't need to use any motion controls attacks

1 smash attack
2 attack
+ movement
^ jump
B throw/grab
A shield (can't move away)

The only motion controls would be tilt to run instead of flicking to analog stick....  
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Offline Strell

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2007, 10:18:59 AM »
From my post over at CAG:

Let's see.  This is speculation.

Wiimote sideways: Map attacks to 1/2 (as A/B respectively).  Map shield to B trigger.  You lose potential L cancels (though you can do this with the trigger), Z deflection (since no longer have that button), and short hops would be much harder to pull off (I'm thinking you'll have to rely entirely on quick presses on the D pad).  I like using buttons for jumps, so this mode is out, unless motion control is used in a very novel and precise way.  Smashes = juking left/right with the mote, for example.  Could work, but I dunno.  Precision kills in fighting games.

Wiimote + Nunchuk: D pad on the 'mote becomes the buttons.  So down = B attacks, right = A attacks.  Up/Left = used for jumping.  B trigger = shield.  Nunchuk has two buttons that can replace L and Z.  So theoretically you have replicated full button placement from the GC controller.  Again, this leaves out motion control, but if they implement it well, could be very useful.  This is marginally better than the above.

Edit: Oh yea.  You lose the C stick with both of the above.  But if you are using it, you are a bitch and I hate you (when you use it).

Classic: Basically mimics the GC controller exactly, with only exception than the Z trigger might be lost, which is no big deal since you ought to be to live without it.  Would be really funny if the 'mote was still usable.  Wangmotation indeed.

GC/Wavebird: Probably will be the preferred method still.  Depends if there are any new moves that take advantage of the above controllers.

Which brings up an excellent point: What if each setup gains its own advantages over the others?  I.e., Wavebird is "standard."  Motion enabled controllers get special moves, like maybe your Final Smash becomes based on motion and can inflict more damage.  A pipe dream, but would be a reason people might use different control sets.  That would add a lot of strategy, actually.  That would put down the arguments about "well you used X setup and I used Y and you had the advantage."

Great.  Now I'm going to be disappointed if that isn't in the game.

Hmmm.  What was last Friday's update?  I wonder if every Friday might be a "big" update.

Ahhh.  I knew investing in a complete set of Wavebirds for the Wii was a good idea, as well as four extension cords.  I guess I ought to snag a few more wired controllers just for good measure, even though I think I have enough already.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2007, 10:24:02 AM »
"Man I can't believe they are foisting the gamecube controller upon us again, how akward!"

Yeah but a lot of us already have Cube controllers so we don't have to buy extra remotes to play four player.

"I actually don't like the idea of using the GC or classic controller, I think the game should have been built around the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to show that it is possible to have an intuitive fighter on Wii. Now when you play online if someone uses the Wii esque controls they will mostly likely get mutilated online."

This would assume that is IS possible to have an intuitive fighter on the Wii.  Forcing the Wii controller to me seems too much like pushing a controller idealogy.  With videogames the design should be "what controls will work BEST?" and when you're pushing a specific design to prove a point you're not doing that.  If the Wii controller is so ideal for this type of game then it shouldn't matter if they offer four options.  The best one will become the de facto standard.  It is only because it very likely won't be the best that there is any concern.  The desire to force something often is because deep down whoever is doing the forcing knows their way wouldn't win in a fair comparison.

Offline trip1eX

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2007, 12:25:26 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Strell
From my post over at CAG:

Let's see.  This is speculation.

Wiimote sideways:   Smashes = juking left/right with the mote, for example.  




Exactly.  Smashes will almost surely use motion control.

I expect the Wiimote/Nunchuk to incorporate some motion control also.   Maybe as an option or part of the sp game or some mini-games.  IT would be a shame for this game not to try and incorporate some single-handed fighting moves.  But every game doesn't have to use motion I suppose and motion would be best for a game made for it.  Not tacked on to a game made for a regular controller.

Personally the wiimote/nunchuk have made the gamepad feel ancient.  




Offline IceCold

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2007, 12:30:33 PM »
Quote

"Man I can't believe they are foisting the gamecube controller upon us again, how akward!"

Yeah but a lot of us already have Cube controllers so we don't have to buy extra remotes to play four player.
I believe that was sarcasm, Ian..
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Offline Sarail

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2007, 01:22:22 PM »
Wii remote turned sideways? Gah, that blew my mind. Here's how I think it's going to work, though. I might actually like this setup, too... now that I've given it some thought.

--Wii Remote Only--
Left/Right D-Pad  -  Move character left/right. Double tap to dash.
Up D-Pad  -  Jump
B Trigger  -  Grab/Throw
A Button  -  Block / Evade (To evade, hold block and thrust the remote either left or right; same principle applies for air dodges and sidestepping on the ground.)
- Button  -  Taunt
+ Button  -  Pause
2 Button  -  Primary Attack / Smash Attack (To initiate a Smash attack, double tap direction on D-pad)
1 Button  -  Special Attacks (in conjunction with whatever direction is being pressed on D-pad)
**Tilt up/down  -  Aim weapons

See, very possible. Plus, I love the idea of motion based evasive maneuvers. I think that would work better than motion based attacks like most people are thinking is going to be the case. Sakurai's playing with everyone's heads right now. I love it. :P
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Offline Pale

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2007, 02:09:18 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I actually don't like the idea of using the GC or classic controller, I think the game should have been built around the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to show that it is possible to have an intuitive fighter on Wii. Now when you play online if someone uses the Wii esque controls they will mostly likely get mutilated online.

By inferring that people who use the traditional controls will win against people who use the Wii esque controls, you are basically saying that it is impossible for the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to control a fighter on the Wii.

If anything, they'll be able to prove it if people actually start using it over the Cube controller when the option is still there, not if they were forced too.

As I've said for a long long time, change isn't always good.  Smash is popular because the controls were sheer genius in their simplicity.  That is one aspect that should never be messed with.  Tweaks and additions, fine, but a wholesale change would be disastrous.
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Offline JonLeung

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2007, 02:42:27 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: vudu
Whatever.  SNK gave us the ability to play with only the Nunchuk.  Why can't Nintendo do the same for its own games?
Not only did they forget Nunchuk-only and Wii Remote vertically, but they also forgot GBA (via the GCN-GBA cable) and DS/DS Lite wireless control.  DS Stylus control!  And DK Bongoes!  What a gyp!  We're getting less than half of all possible control schemes!  :P

Offline Dirk Temporo

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2007, 03:35:29 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think this is great.  I'm going with Cube controller.  I mean I'm already used to it so why not?

It makes sense for Nintendo to offer so many control options even if it may confuse gamers.  This game is for hardcore Nintendo fans who will pick up on all the references.  "Confused" non-gamers need not apply.  The SSB audience will appreciate the multiple options.


Holy crap. IAN LIKES SOMETHING?

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Offline JonLeung

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2007, 04:01:11 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think this is great.  I'm going with Cube controller.  I mean I'm already used to it so why not?

It makes sense for Nintendo to offer so many control options even if it may confuse gamers.  This game is for hardcore Nintendo fans who will pick up on all the references.  "Confused" non-gamers need not apply.  The SSB audience will appreciate the multiple options.


Holy crap. IAN LIKES SOMETHING?

*checks outside for armageddon*
Mortal Kombat: Armageddon was recently released on the Wii.  And the motion control worked well enough.  They had the option for the Classic Controller and the GameCube controller as well, just not the horizontal Remote one.

I guess there will be numerous debates as to which is best, but a true Smash Bros. expert may be able to beat anyone using any control scheme.  Choice is good for anyone, and increases longevity of the game if someone did want to master them all.

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2007, 05:04:30 PM »
If I can't hook up my old NES Power Pad to play this, consider it a sale LOST Nintendo. You've been warned.

Offline IceCold

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2007, 06:04:38 PM »
Quote

By inferring that people who use the traditional controls will win against people who use the Wii esque controls, you are basically saying that it is impossible for the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to control a fighter on the Wii.
I don't think it is. First off, we're talking about Smash Bros, which is a series that started out with traditional controls and is heavily dependent on them for its intuitiveness. If you made a brand new fighting game based on the remote, it would turn out much better.

But more importantly, the remote isn't as well suited to 2D fighters. 3D fighters I can see the controller improving significantly in some cases, but on a 2D plane it's much harder to implement motion controls.

EDIT: Ohh, right.. Pale said that. This reminds me of his debate with zakkiel about the very same topic. I gotta look that one up.  
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2007, 08:19:38 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Man I can't believe they are foisting the gamecube controller upon us again, how akward!"

Yeah but a lot of us already have Cube controllers so we don't have to buy extra remotes to play four player.

"I actually don't like the idea of using the GC or classic controller, I think the game should have been built around the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to show that it is possible to have an intuitive fighter on Wii. Now when you play online if someone uses the Wii esque controls they will mostly likely get mutilated online."

This would assume that is IS possible to have an intuitive fighter on the Wii.  Forcing the Wii controller to me seems too much like pushing a controller idealogy.  With videogames the design should be "what controls will work BEST?" and when you're pushing a specific design to prove a point you're not doing that.  If the Wii controller is so ideal for this type of game then it shouldn't matter if they offer four options.  The best one will become the de facto standard.  It is only because it very likely won't be the best that there is any concern.  The desire to force something often is because deep down whoever is doing the forcing knows their way wouldn't win in a fair comparison.


Yikes everyone get rid of those control pads, time to go back to the joystick and one button combo. I HATE when companies like Nintendo, Sony, and MS force controller ideologies that games need something other than the joystick to play, they are obviously worried that the joystick/button combo would win when compared.

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2007, 08:22:07 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Pale
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I actually don't like the idea of using the GC or classic controller, I think the game should have been built around the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to show that it is possible to have an intuitive fighter on Wii. Now when you play online if someone uses the Wii esque controls they will mostly likely get mutilated online.

By inferring that people who use the traditional controls will win against people who use the Wii esque controls, you are basically saying that it is impossible for the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to control a fighter on the Wii.

If anything, they'll be able to prove it if people actually start using it over the Cube controller when the option is still there, not if they were forced too.

As I've said for a long long time, change isn't always good.  Smash is popular because the controls were sheer genius in their simplicity.  That is one aspect that should never be messed with.  Tweaks and additions, fine, but a wholesale change would be disastrous.


You know that is exactly what I'm inferring, because I feel it is a cop out and I worry that the potential of a the Wiimote/nunchuck working great will be lost. This because of the potential of less thought and planning going into the Wii controls, because they have an easy way out.  
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2007, 08:32:30 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I HATE when companies like Nintendo, Sony, and MS force controller ideologies that games need something other than the joystick to play, they are obviously worried that the joystick/button combo would win when compared.


In this case, nothing is being forced, and, due to the nature of the market, chances are more people will be playing with the Wiimote than anything else, as that's what they bought with the system.

I don't see any reason for concern, it's not like they are forcing everyone to use the GCN controller, and to suggest that Smash Bros morph enough that it wouldn't be possible anymore on a traditonal controller seems kind of rash considering: how beloved the franchise is, that this is only the third game in the series, and it's coming half a decade after the last was released. There is hardly any concern for burn out, or anything else that would demand a huge overhaul in the formula.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2007, 08:34:46 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I HATE when companies like Nintendo, Sony, and MS force controller ideologies that games need something other than the joystick to play, they are obviously worried that the joystick/button combo would win when compared.


In this case, nothing is being forced, and, due to the nature of the market, chances are more people will be playing with the Wiimote than anything else, as that's what they bought with the system.

I don't see any reason for concern, it's not like they are forcing everyone to use the GCN controller, and to suggest that Smash Bros morph enough that it wouldn't be possible anymore on a traditonal controller seems kind of rash considering: how beloved the franchise is, that this is only the third game in the series, and it's coming half a decade after the last was released. There is hardly any concern for burn out, or anything else that would demand a huge overhaul in the formula.


Let me put it this way, I will have NO complaint if it appears they put alot of thought into the Wii controls. But if they appear lazily implemented I will be pretty disappointed. In a way I was hoping for Smash Brothers to take advantage of the Wiimote's unique features, and that does not appear to be the case anymore for whatever reason.
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Offline Pale

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2007, 03:44:23 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
Quote

By inferring that people who use the traditional controls will win against people who use the Wii esque controls, you are basically saying that it is impossible for the Wiimote/Nunchuck combo to control a fighter on the Wii.
I don't think it is. First off, we're talking about Smash Bros, which is a series that started out with traditional controls and is heavily dependent on them for its intuitiveness. If you made a brand new fighting game based on the remote, it would turn out much better.

But more importantly, the remote isn't as well suited to 2D fighters. 3D fighters I can see the controller improving significantly in some cases, but on a 2D plane it's much harder to implement motion controls.

EDIT: Ohh, right.. Pale said that. This reminds me of his debate with zakkiel about the very same topic. I gotta look that one up.


Is that the argument where I said there was no way they were going to drop traditional controls in the new smash bros and it ended up with me threatening to quit the forums? =P
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Offline Ceric

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2007, 04:33:40 AM »
Nintendo has a vested interest in getting the Wii controls to be great in this premier title.  I'm sure Nintendo the corporation won't let it go till it meets snuff because they now a lot of people will buy a Wii just for this game.
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Offline NeoThunder

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2007, 06:31:25 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mikemn
I'm hoping Nintendo releases a Wii-style GCN controller (WaveBird Wireless). I mean one that is exactly the same as the original WaveBird, except it's made of glossy white plastic, with white and clear buttons, and a blue power light.


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Offline Dirk Temporo

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2007, 07:34:15 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Quote

In this case, nothing is being forced, and, due to the nature of the market, chances are more people will be playing with the Wiimote than anything else, as that's what they bought with the system.


Except I would say that easily most of the people who own a Wii also own(ed) a Gamecube, and have GCN controllers sitting around.
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Offline Pale

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2007, 07:51:33 AM »
Man, Nintendo won't ever do it, because so few people would buy it, but all I want is a modified wave bird receiver that incorporates 4 receivers and would fit snuggly in the top of the wii, maintaining the form factor and design, replacing those top lids all together.  
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2007, 08:12:41 AM »
That would be nice indeed.
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Offline MarioAllStar

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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2007, 10:34:01 AM »
I hope Nintendo releases a firmware update that lets us control the Wii with a GameCube controller. Since such a major title has GameCube controller support, it would be nice if we could start the game without having to use a Wii controller to select the disc channel.

Not very major, but a nice touch.
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RE:Smash Bros. Brawl Will Support Four Control Types
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2007, 02:33:48 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
I hope Nintendo releases a firmware update that lets us control the Wii with a GameCube controller. Since such a major title has GameCube controller support, it would be nice if we could start the game without having to use a Wii controller to select the disc channel.


That would be great as well.

Forcing pointer usage in the beginning just sucks.
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