Topic: Wii third party game debate heats up.

[ShyGuy]

http://ncroal.talk.newsweek.com/default.asp?item=524536

Joystiq has a post on this too. Bits of this reminds me of posts by Kairon and IanSane.

I think the true dividing line isn't "kiddie" vs "mature" It's about feeling cool for the latently insecure gamers. You plays as Master Chief, you feel cool. You race a car in Gran Turismo, you feel cool. You bounce around as a drop of water, you don't feel cool.

But that's only one aspect of the third party debate. People turning their nose up at any Wii title that isn't AAA game is a whole other deal.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
http://ncroal.talk.newsweek.com/default.asp?item=524536

Joystiq has a post on this too. Bits of this reminds me of posts by Kairon and IanSane.

I think the true dividing line isn't "kiddie" vs "mature" It's about feeling cool for the latently insecure gamers. You plays as Master Chief, you feel cool. You race a car in Gran Turismo, you feel cool. You bounce around as a drop of water, you don't feel cool.

But that's only one aspect of the third party debate. People turning their nose up at any Wii title that isn't AAA game is a whole other deal.

Well in a way he does have a point, it seems like many Nintendo fans don't know what exactly they want. Personally I am intrigued by that Dewie game, and may pick up various other 3rd party games such as the Godfather and Manhunt. With that said, from what I understand 3rd parties have been doing pretty decent so far if they aren't quick n dirty ports, I think Rayman sold well, as did Red Steel and perhaps even Secret Rings. Even Madden has been doing pretty well, so that says something.

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I think the true dividing line isn't "kiddie" vs "mature" It's about feeling cool for the latently insecure gamers. You plays as Master Chief, you feel cool. You race a car in Gran Turismo, you feel cool. You bounce around as a drop of water, you don't feel cool.

But what if I play as Godzilla and throw another monster into building, which topples down on top of them? Wouldn't I feel cool, even if what I'm doing is classified as "nerdy"?

Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
People turning their nose up at any Wii title that isn't AAA game is a whole other deal.

That's probably not going to be a problem this generation, going from early adoption rate. The Gamecube had that problem due to the fact that it catered largely to Nintendo's own regular userbase, who typically ate up Nintendo's own offerings. It didn't expand very well into the casual market. With the Wii though, it's pretty much assured at least 1st or 2nd place this generation, and due to the blue ocean strategy I think the system can cater to both the hard core gamer and, what many call, the "non-gamer" and I'm sure those two groups combined will cover a lot of different titles that don't need to be AAA calibur. Besides, if the system sells well, and more games are released for it, then then casuals are bound to spill over into the system pool as well.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Yeah but what is AAA? That is my only question :: DERAILED::  

[ShyGuy]

Godzilla is now considered kiddy or something? Dang, I hate teenagers. Godzilla is still both "cool" and "kewl" as far as I know.

[Ian Sane]

"Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or 'k!ddy' games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii."

I don't think it's that we don't want that but rather that we don't JUST want that.  Though I'm not sh!tting on original titles if they look like they've got potential and the developer is someone with some credibility.  The problem I see isn't just that we're getting k!ddy games or ports but rather that I don't see much else.  It's like the Wii has a lot of that filler crap that is a byproduct of healthy third party support but without the good stuff that's supposed to go with it.

Dewy's Adventure is getting a fair bit of flack because Konami is making it.  They make all sorts of stuff in different styles.  But so far ALL of their Wii stuff is cutesy and this is the company that gave the Cube Disney Sports games and nothing else except for one Metal Gear game that was a remake and was farmed off to one of Nintendo's own second parties.  If Nintendo didn't make that one deal Konami would have given us nothing but k!ddy games.  And I mean real k!ddy games, not something like Mario.  Konami was very obvious in letting everyone know that they thought Nintendo's console was for kids.  In fact I think they said it outright.  So when all of their Wii titles are cutesy and look like they're aimed at kids the assumption is that it's the same thing over again: Konami thinks Nintendo is for kids and their REAL support will go to the other consoles.

While "k!ddy" is often called an unfair label in reality Nintendo is often the only one where that's the case.  With everyone else the so called "k!ddy games" usually ARE designed primarily with kids in mind.  Nintendo's "everyone" approach is rare.  If a third party is giving you only their "k!ddy" stuff then odds are good that you are not getting their top material.

[The Omen]

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Dewy's Adventure is getting a fair bit of flack because Konami is making it. They make all sorts of stuff in different styles. But so far ALL of their Wii stuff is cutesy and this is the company that gave the Cube Disney Sports games and nothing else except for one Metal Gear game that was a remake and was farmed off to one of Nintendo's own second parties. If Nintendo didn't make that one deal Konami would have given us nothing but k!ddy games. And I mean real k!ddy games, not something like Mario. Konami was very obvious in letting everyone know that they thought Nintendo's console was for kids. In fact I think they said it outright. So when all of their Wii titles are cutesy and look like they're aimed at kids the assumption is that it's the same thing over again: Konami thinks Nintendo is for kids and their REAL support will go to the other consoles.

True

[ShyGuy]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Yeah but what is AAA? That is my only question :: DERAILED::

Quiet you, go back to practicing your Sonic.

[Pittbboi]

That has to be the most slanted gaming article I've ever read.

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Yet from what I have seen, Wii owners are complaining about almost everything the Wii has heading its way. Take for example Dewy's Adventure, a recently announced puzzle/platformer game that makes use of everything unique to the Wii's control scheme. An alarming number of fans have branded the game as "kiddie" and not worth a second look. This not-worth-my-time message board buzz seems to be afflicting an alarming number of titles coming to the Wii. Prince of Persia: Rival Swords; The Godfather: Blackhand Edition; Scarface; Mortal Kombat: Armageddon--fans lambaste them all because they appeared on last-generation platforms. Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or "kiddy" games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii

So, we don't want crappy ports, licensed games, and aren't that interested when a new IP featuring a drop of water named Dewy (smart), introducing the the same "innovative" method of "tilt the controller to tilt the world" gameplay that two other games in the Wii's short life have already employed. I don't really think that's a big deal.  The guy writing this article makes it seem as though these are all AAA tittles that developers are releasing on the Wii for reasons other than making a quick buck, and we ungrateful Nintendo fans are hanging them on the cross.

Oh, and I like how he uses Dewy's Adventure to say that Nintendo fans don't want original titles, considering No More Heroes (despite a few naysayers) is getting a generally positive reception within the community.

I'm sick of people saying the Wii is getting more "support" from third parties, when in reality that's only true in numbers. We're still getting that same half-a**ed type of support the Cube got, just in slightly larger numbers. Third Parties can't POSSIBLY be so dense they think we wouldn't buy their games if it looked like they put an effort into them and weren't built around the idea that Nintendo consoles are for kids.

Heck, again, look at No More Heroes. Honestly, it doesn't look like a AAA title at all; it's graphics are barely above Cube level, the animation is clunky, and the framerate probably sucks. But people are still excited about it because it's an honest-to-god game built from the ground up for the Wii that, despite it's technical problems, looks like there was effort put into it. It's a game that doesn't treat Nintendo fans like children who are too scared of any sort of mature theme.

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From what I can see, Wii owners want more "mature" titles. I put this term in quotes because I simply don't believe that the gameplay examples fans are citing qualify as mature. The general outcry seems to be for titles that offer up violence in one way or another.

Yeah, um, News Flash: If we wanted nothing but violent titles we probably wouldn't be Nintendo fans to begin with.

"Mature" isn't just violence. I've always viewed mature titles as those that require more thought than a Saturday morning cartoon. Games with art direction that doesn't look like something off the back of a cereal box, and a soundtrack that isn't two Jesus Christs away from Sunday School. Something that can't be completed in one sitting. Something that tackles mature themes that don't always have to include sex or violence.  Heck, the Wii STILL doesn't have an RPG in the works for it besides FF: Crystal Chronicles.

Nintendo games aren't lambasted because, despite their non-games and "kiddie" games, Nintendo still supplies us with mature, epic titles.

This guy expects us to be happy with ANYTHING that's thrown at us.    

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Solution: don't buy Dewey.

I should clarify.  We know Twins Snakes tanked, and that helped Konami reinforce the notion Nintendo consoles don't want "matoor" games.

If we can get Dewey to tank, that should at least make Konami realize "kiddee" wasn't appropriate either, making them feel clueless and that they will either (1) follow the example of other successful 3rd parties, or (2) dry up as a company and go under with bad development choices and poor sales, just as Capcom should.  

[Ian Sane]

I think one thing that contributes to a perceived interest in mature games is that to Nintendo fans that relatively new.  The last time a Nintendo console had good third party support there pretty wasn't any such thing as a "mature" game.  The ESRB only existed for the last few years of the Super Nintendo's life.  Wanting better third party is really asking for the types of games we've been deprived of because of poor third party support.  So when we get a bunch of stuff that looks like Chameleon Twist we don't care about it because, man, we don't need better third party support for THOSE types of games.  We got our fill of that on the N64.  What we really want are the types of games that were on the Playstation 1&2 and the Xbox that didn't show up on the N64 or Cube.  So far the Wii is not really getting anything that wouldn't have normally shown up on a Nintendo console.

It's the same thing with EA and Ubisoft.  Their support isn't considered that big of a deal because we already had them.  Pretty much all of the decent games those publishers made last gen showed up on the Cube.  Any online support was cut of course but those games were there.  We had Spinter Cell, Prince of Persia, Rayman, Madden, SSX just like everyone did.  So when EA's all "hey look a new Sims games" we're all like "so what?"  The Wii could have sold only 100 consoles by now and EA would be making a Sims game for it.

[segagamer12]

except, ian, we had INFERIOR PORTS last gen where as this gen they are actually making good games for the most part.

I don't get all the wishy washy nintendo fans who beg for 3rd party support one minute and bash the support it gest the next. Godfather, whast wrong with that game!? It sold really well and a lot of people liked it. I think its the attituted that games liek that aren't good when they in fact ARE. Like MK arrmegeddon, that sure pissed off a lot of MK fans not seeing it on GC, but by the time it came out most GC and MK fans knew already not to expect it to come to GC and went out and got one of the other consoles anyways.


The way it sounds to me is if it wasn't on GC last gen it shouldn't be on Wii this Gen, unless its attrracting new customers? Everyone wanted more violent games and now that they are coming everyone is complaining? I am completely puzzled by this yet its the fact of life Nintendo fans really *don't* know what they want.

Whatever I don't get it, mayeb thast why Im so unpopluar, cuz I dont get it and I try and think differently than the typical Nintendo fans.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

If they implement the Wii controls well I will definately check out Godfather on Wii making it the 3rd iteration of the game I've purchased LOL. The other two were for Xbox 360 and PC.

[trip1eX]

Eh it's' just that we're in the launch window still and we're just getting mostly Ps2 ports with Wii controls from 3rd parties with a handful of originals.  Most all these games feel rushed.  This hasn't been different than on other systems.  

The real 3rd party stuff will start to hit later this year and especially 2k8.  By that time we'll see some developers with a 2nd go around designed for the wiimote and the Wii and we'll start to see the potential being satisfied.

[King of Twitch]

"Prince of Persia: Rival Swords; The Godfather: Blackhand Edition; Scarface; Mortal Kombat: Armageddon--fans lambaste them all because they appeared on last-generation platforms."

Because they are cheap cash-ins and a waste of space. See "Director's Cut" DVDs.


"Still, they write on message boards that the game doesn't appeal to them at all because it lacks "mature" themes, yet many of the people leaving these comments aren't even old enough to purchase Mature-rated games."

wild speculation, with no specifics. why did you beat your wife?


"Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or "kiddy" games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii...."

Well, we certainly don't want this crap:
Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End
Shrek the Third Transformers the Game
Tamagotchi Party On
The Ant Bully
Happy Feet
Cars
SpongeBob SquarePants: Creature from the Krusty Krab

or this:
SSX Blur, Madden NFL 07, Poker blahblahblah.. sports games that even the ngage probably has
Call of Duty 3 - no online, no multi, are you f-ing serious
Rampage: Total Destruction - sequel to an Atari game
Avatar: The Last Airbender - tv show cash-in
The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy - tv show cash-in
Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 - anime games came out every 3 months even on gamecube
Sonic and the Secret Rings - another crappy sonic game


I'm sure even Winnie the Pooh has some deep social commentary the way some "kid die" games like Dewey (may) have sophisticated controls and gameplay but how is that appealing


"Nintendo die hards want third party support, but they don't want the original titles, enhanced ports, or "kiddy" games that they accuse third parties of dumping on the Wii."

Preposterous. Red Steel is very original and has sold well despite its control flaws. We don't want crappy cash-ins like the lengthy list above, and Konami's reputation for insulting the intelligence of their own customers isn't helpful.

There are few good third party "kid die" games in the first place (elebits, Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz, Rayman) none of which were rejected out-of-hand. Making the whole thing rest on the Rejection of Dewey Scandal is silly.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Heck, the Wii STILL doesn't have an RPG in the works for it besides FF: Crystal Chronicles.

Koei says you are wrong

[IceCold]

Not to mention Fire Emblem and Dragon Quest Swords.

[Strell]

The console is 4 months old.

Why in the hell are people so intent on deciding what the console already is versus isn't?

This argument is the same level of retard that causes people to proclaim "the PS3 is dead."  

Christ.

[Jin-X]

When Super Paper Mario comes out, how much you want to bet that the consensus from the reviews is that its the best Wii game after Zelda?

So the top 2 will look like this come April:

1. Zelda
2. Super Paper Mario

So the best two games on the Wii will be made by Nintendo. That is the single biggest reason their games sell better than 3rd party ones on Nintendo consoles, because THEY ARE BETTER. So what 3rd parties need to do is make better games and new IPs (like No More Heroes) and less old ports.

Basically they need to bring their "A" games and less of their "C" games (there are some nice 2nd tier games though). Not everybody can afford to buy a shitload of games a year, so people are going to naturally go for the best games and right now on Wii only Nintendo has made those.

The problem is that we won't really begin to see most of them till next year because they didn't think the Wii would do this well.

[darknight06]

Guys you do know that Konami is making an official DDR on the Wii right.  Not a Mario Mix, a REAL DDR.  Potentially the next official mix if the release date is true.  That's better Konami support than the GC had by far.

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The console is 4 months old.  Why in the hell are people so intent on deciding what the console already is versus isn't?  This argument is the same level of retard that causes people to proclaim "the PS3 is dead."

To be blunt, I don't think most of these guys have much else to do...

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Yeah but what is AAA? That is my only question :: DERAILED::

We are NOT reopening THAT septic tank of an argument, young lady!

As for the subject, the Wii is the first system I've ever seen that people have a hard time treating it as a child's toy.

For the teenage male gamer, I don't think it's "cool" so much as looking childish in front of potential mates, but when those mates are playing Wii Tennis with you, it kills the "girls won't like me" concern that I'm certain most teenage male gamers have.

I don't think coolness will be an issue. If it was, we'd see it reflected in Wii's sales already and that certainly isn't the case.

And the AAA title argument isn't an issue: no matter HOW you define "AAA", the RULE is that the system with the highest installed userbase gets the most AAA titles (and the most titles overall).

Typically, a AAA title is going to cost loads of money to make and has the potential to sell very well, but when it costs FAR less to make on the Wii and will guarantee just as many if not more sales, it's a double-whammy of profit from the Wii.

When the Wii takes #1 in console sales, it is guaranteed to have the most AAA titles. This is not arguable. Companies won't choose to release their AAA titles on consoles with smaller user bases just for the pure hell of it. They'll bring them to the Wii where they can make the most money.

It's all about the Benjamins, people.

[Pittbboi]

GoldenPheonix:

Cut me some slack--that title was just announced today! I didn't know about until about 15 minutes ago. lol

IceCold:

I'm definitely interested in Fire Emblem, but it's a first party offering. Not only that, but it's a tactical RPG: I'm not saying it doesn't count, but it definitely occupies it's own niche that's slightly different from the traditional turn-based, story heavy RPG.

As for Dragon Quest Swords...again, another game that I'm definitely interested in and WILL be purchasing, but from what I've seen of it, it seems to be veering away from traditional RPG gameplay. I could be wrong, though.

I'm still waiting for the traditional, bread-and-butter rpg. The Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests and Blue Dragons...

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
I'm still waiting for the traditional, bread-and-butter rpg. The Final Fantasies and Dragon Quests and Blue Dragons...

What a waste of time...If devs are going to take the time to work with the Wii hardware they should at least try to make some unique RPGs...Enough of the 80's gameplay of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy...

[Pittbboi]

Well, I definitely wouldn't call FFXII "80's gameplay" but at the same time I would still consider it a traditional RPG. Same for what we know about the battle systems for FFXIII.

That, and 80's rpg gameplay still has its place. Ask any RPG lover.

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Well, I definitely wouldn't call FFXII "80's gameplay" but at the same time I would still consider it a traditional RPG. Same for what we know about the battle systems for FFXIII.

That, and 80's rpg gameplay still has its place. Ask any RPG lover.

I wouldn't consider it a "game" at all, since you can set it to play on its own and not have to bother with any of that "gameplay" nonsense which Japan seems less and less enthused with.