Author Topic: Is Miyamoto Past His Prime?  (Read 29995 times)

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Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2007, 09:22:33 AM »
This thread is about the extent of Miyamoto's role in Nintendo's creative process, the dominance of his philosophies, and the extent to which Nintendo can be considered dependent upon him.

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Offline Pittbboi

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2007, 10:01:31 AM »
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Tamagotchi isn't as dead as you might believe. It's still breathing somewhat in Japan.


Yes, but is it anywhere near the craze it was back in the 90s? Not even close. It no longer exists as the thing you had to have if you wanted to appear cool and in the loop.

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You can't hide behind "it's my opinion" when you don't back it up.

But that's the thing: that ISN'T my opinion, and I've stated that several times already. MY opinion is that Miyamoto IS NOT past his prime but that his current position in Nintendo's hierarchy keeps him stifled. And I don't seem to be alone in my thinking that while his current games are definitely worthy of acclaim and continue to set industry standards, many of them lack that indescribable magic that many of his earlier works had. This really isn't something your can back up with concrete facts, because it's all dependent on opinion, and I wanted to gauge what the general consensus was on this board. Some people feel that Miyamoto is past his prime because it just doesn't get any better than his earlier work. I, however, feel that, if given the right circumstances, Miyamoto could definitely recreate that magic that thrived in his earlier titles.


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And yeah while it may be a question, think if I posted this: "Is Pittbboi a Flaming Homosexual? Discuss."

Well, if this was a forum where a question of that nature would be relevant to the forum's theme, I don't see what the problem would be. But as it stands now, in this discussion, it's nothing more than an underhanded jab to the gut.

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You even started the thread with: "Ok, before we get into it I would just like to say that I am NOT trying to incite a flame war here." You rationalized it before you even started.

Because even you must realize that anything that can possibly be perceived as anti-Nintendo will immediately put fanboys in Attack Mode. And that was something I wanted to avoid in favor of what, I thought, could be interesting discussion.

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BUT we won't know where his prime IS until he quits. Not only have you cast summary judgment on his work from 1998-present, with your assumption that his prime was before that, you have cast summary judgment on all of his future works as well, which if you think about it, is very disrespectful.


Because never before has someone cast "summary judgment" on anyone's work until they were done with it. The world wouldn't have much to talk about if we waited until every creator died or quit until we discussed the significance of their creations. It gets done with everyone--painters, writers, architects, musicians, and even game designers. The works of Miyamoto are especially susceptible to this because it can be argued that the nature of his work now is a lot different than the nature of his work then. He's in two completely different places within the company. Deguello, welcome to the water cooler.

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Do you KNOW that there will be no Pikmin 3?


Well, if you keep going in this frame of mind what's the point of ANY discussion of opinions, rumors or the like? You'd have to close more than half the threads created on this board. I don't KNOW there won't be a Pikmin 3 (I personally would like there be), but as it stands now it doesn't seem like there's going to be. Miyamoto could actually be a few years away from creating the greatest, most esteemed game of his career; or that game could have come out years ago. Nobody really knows, but does that stop discussion? speculation? I don't think so.

I get the feeling that you, and a few other people, are being a little defensive because you think that, somewhere in all of this, I was blindly attacking Miyamoto and calling his recent games crap. That really wasn't my intention.

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BTW what is this thread ABOUT anymore?

Kairon answered that question a lot better than I could.

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BTW, no way is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back. You think any other company would have let Miyamoto make a game about dogs?


Well, considering that Miyamoto is their most esteemed game developer/director right now, I'm inclined to believe that he was met with little, if any, opposition.


     

Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2007, 10:07:56 AM »
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
But as it stands now, in this discussion, it's nothing more than an underhanded jab to the gut.


But WiiSports Boxng has shown us all that that's legal and allowed!

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For never was a story of more woe
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2007, 10:32:00 AM »
"I haven't seen many Pikmin or Nintendogs clones."

Nintendogs has had a couple clones which makes sense because it was a big commercial success on a very popular system.  I think Pikmin isn't copied because the Gamecube itself is fairly obscure in the grand scheme of things.  If the console was more successful its games would have spawned more clones from publishers trying to grab onto a hot thing.  Metroid Prime (though not a Miyamoto game) isn't copied either, despite being one of the top ten games on GameRankings.com, and that too is likely because as a Cube game it was overshadowed by the big PS2 and Xbox games.

Is Miyamoto holding Nintendo back?  Well he did on the N64.  He wanted to stick with cartridges so Nintendo did and screwed themselves for the next ten years as a result.  But at the same time he introduced the analog stick on the same console and it ended up being one of the most influencial ideas in videogaming.  I guess it's give or take.  As an artist he is going to have some unorthodox ideas and it's the responsibiliy of the corporate side of Nintendo to determine if those ideas make sense from a business perspective.

One thing he could do better though is take into account the needs of other developers when pushing controller ideas.  Other developers shouldn't have to suggest the nunchuk.  Miyamoto should have an open enough mind for game design to make something more flexible.  That is something Gunpei Yokoi can be praised for.  Nintendo's controllers during his time with the company were incredibly flexible and practical while introducing new concepts at the same time.  All of the "Miyamoto era" controllers have had some questionable design choices.  Though that might be a coincedence.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2007, 12:54:33 PM »
I hate to say it but I agree with most of what Ian said, Miyamotos hardware and controller descisions have been less than stellar (though I feel the Wii/Nunchuck combo is one of their better controller designs). Miyamoto should probably stick to giving advice on what he would like to see when it comes to hardware, and have people who know what they are doing make final design descisions. Even though I did like the GC controller it was still qutie flawed (IMO the Xbox 360 controller is the perfect traditional controller). Anyway Miyamoto should stick to what he knows best and that is games!
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Offline Maverick

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2007, 02:55:13 PM »
The GC Controller was my favorite until the 360 came along.  It's like butter in your hands.
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Offline mantidor

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2007, 03:13:41 PM »
After thinking about it I think I'll wait for Miyamoto to make the "next" pikmin (that is,  a sequel to pikmin or another awesome game that isn't meant to be played by grandmas), if such game doesn't happen then he would really be past his prime.

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Offline Pittbboi

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2007, 03:26:51 PM »
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Metroid Prime (though not a Miyamoto game)


But here's the thing, and going back to what was mentioned earlier when I credited Miyamoto with Metroid (the newer ones): Again, I can't find the article (I'm sure I read it in EGM), but wasn't it Miyamoto who decided that Metroid Prime should move in first person, despite the fact that the game was already in development? If that's true, while it may not be Miyamoto's creation, but that sure was one executive decision for him to make, and proves that he more than just play-tests the series. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

But I agree with you, Ian, about the controllers. Sometimes it seems that Miyamoto can't see past what he needs for his own games, and while that's well and good for him (and EAD), sometimes Nintendo the console developer needs to step in and make sure hardware is as wide-open as it can be so that developers can have the freedom they need to create.  

Offline IceCold

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2007, 04:40:12 PM »
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I hate to say it but I agree with most of what Ian said, Miyamotos hardware and controller descisions have been less than stellar (though I feel the Wii/Nunchuck combo is one of their better controller designs). Miyamoto should probably stick to giving advice on what he would like to see when it comes to hardware, and have people who know what they are doing make final design descisions. Even though I did like the GC controller it was still qutie flawed (IMO the Xbox 360 controller is the perfect traditional controller). Anyway Miyamoto should stick to what he knows best and that is games!
I'll have to disagree with this. How on earth have his hardware and controller decisions have been bad? Nintendo and Miyamoto have always been pioneers in hardware innovation, culminating in the Wii controller. The analogue stick, the rumble, digital click shoulder buttons (which are severely underrated), etc. Many of these became industry standards, so I just don't understand how they could be "less than stellar".

Do you mean his hardware decisions were bad commercially for Nintendo? Because the decision to stick with carts helped us - shorter load times can only be good for the gamer. Sure, it contributed to Nintendo's downfall in the 64 era, but looking purely from a gamer's perspective, carts were wonderful.

Also, the GameCube controller is by far the most comfortable one ever. It just moulded in your hands perfectly, and you didn't want to let it go. People may complain about the button layout, but the truth is that for some genres (such as platformers)  it is much better than the 360/PS3 controller, but for others (like fighting games) it wasn't as good. Overall though, I like the Wavebird far more than the 360 controller.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2007, 04:43:34 PM »
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Originally posted by: mantidor
After thinking about it I think I'll wait for Miyamoto to make the "next" pikmin (that is,  a sequel to pikmin or another awesome game that isn't meant to be played by grandmas), if such game doesn't happen then he would really be past his prime.


Talk about a straw man, from what I understand he is heavily responsible for Mario Galaxy and I have no doubt he is also working with Retro on Metroid Prime 3.
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Offline wandering

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2007, 05:10:35 PM »
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
It's clear that Nintendo developed the wiimote with Miyamoto's minimalist design philosophy in mind. I guess that could be an example of Miyamoto holding Nintendo back, if you agree that is the case.

Not really. The wiimote was developed with Iwata's minimalist philosophy in mind. When the idea of a wand-like controller was presented to Miyamoto, he didn't think it would work with traditional games, and suggested it become a removable part of a normal controller.

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Originally posted by: Djunknown
I think that right now, the public faces we see, hear, and read from Nintendo are as follows: Iwata and Miyamoto (Anouma, when they're talking about the next Zelda) from NCL, Reggie, Kaplan, and George Harrison from NOA. The names from NOE and NAL evade me at this time, but you get my point.

If we could hear more from the designers, programmers, artists, even from NCL's board, then we'd could equate Nintendo to more than just the names I mentioned above. I just learned from this thread the man responsible for Animal Crossing!

Well, there's Iwata asks...
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Offline son of lucas

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2007, 06:30:44 PM »
I might be alone, but I still think the N64 controller was the greatest ever created.  No button has ever been as perfectly functional as the Z-trigger.

Offline UncleBob

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2007, 06:50:37 PM »
I haven't read this whole thing, but I fear something like Stan Lee happening here.

Stan Lee "created" tons of Marvel characters and wrote tons of great stories.  Eventually, the entire company started to pretty much revolve around him.  As it went on, Stan Lee became less and less about creating and more and more other stuff that he just didn't do as well.  Meanwhile, he wanted to go back to creating... so he got out of his Marvel-exclusive contract and started doing his own thing. Unfortunatly, by this time, he was so out of touch with everything that I don't think he's created a dang thing anyone cares about since then.  Backstreet Project anyone?
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2007, 06:53:45 PM »
Wait, are you saying Stripperella is not as great a character as Spiderman?

Offline oohhboy

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2007, 07:07:19 PM »
Stripperella was fun as hell to watch. What I don't get is why people like Spiderman.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2007, 08:40:17 PM »
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Originally posted by: son of lucas
I might be alone, but I still think the N64 controller was the greatest ever created.  No button has ever been as perfectly functional as the Z-trigger.


You're not alone. I love the N64 controller.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2007, 09:54:56 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: son of lucas
I might be alone, but I still think the N64 controller was the greatest ever created.  No button has ever been as perfectly functional as the Z-trigger.


You're not alone. I love the N64 controller.

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The N64 controller was a good controller. As of now I would rank the traditional controllers as so

1. Xbox 360
2. Gamecube
3. N64
4. Xbox fat (Hey I liked this controller)
5. PS dual shock version 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, 8
6. SNES
7. Genesis
8. Dreamcast
9. NES
7.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2007, 12:03:06 AM »
I would love a re-release of the N64 controller with a control stick that doesn't get destroyed so damn quickly. My N64 controllers are all destroyed. Between me and my 2 brothers we probably went through 12 controllers. Granted we played a metric crap ton of N64, but those controllers just didn't stand up to the test of time. If somehow I could get my hands on an N64 controller with a Gamecube (or Wii or 360) analog stick instead of the default one, that would be awesome.

Other than that, I will say that anybody who thinks Nintendo controller design is poorly done they are out of their f-ing mind. Every single relevant controller feature ever created (pretty much) was created by Nintendo. People pretty widely regard the 360 controller as the best ever, but how much different is that than the Gamecube controller? Let's see, add another z trigger on the left side, make the analog sticks clickable and toss on the useless back button (which resembles select, which Nintendo did away with starting on the N64). Nintendo has a knack for creating great controllers that are widely copied by their competitors. Look at the Dual-Sh!tty-Shock, it's a modified SNES controller with 2 analog sticks awkwardly placed on the pad, and a couple extra shoulder buttons. Nintendo is king at controller design, the competitor replications really prove that.  
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Offline son of lucas

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RE: Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2007, 04:36:36 AM »
Funny, my N64 controllers still works.  But I went through a couple Gamecube controllers despite playing that system a whole lot less.

Offline Djunknown

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2007, 02:20:40 PM »
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Well, there's Iwata asks...


Thanks for the link. I just read the first section regarding the actual Wii console. Its a fascinating read.

This is what I'm talking about. Its a step in the right direction. Now they need to expand a little more, from Nintendo Power, to EGM or Gameinformer (Though I understand they might be maligned according to NWR posters.). Hell, an appearance at G4 techTV forever! would give that network some credibility...

Concerning the new question of the thread, that's a tough one. Someone should ask Iwata if they get a chance!
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Offline Edge

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2007, 01:17:21 AM »
Cloning is the answer.

Offline TerribleOne

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2007, 04:05:35 AM »
hmm.. I think Nintendo just needs to let more guys have freedom as far as creativity goes. That way we don't worry about Nintendo holding back Miyamoto as long as person X and/or developer Z are supplying us with new ways of gaming. Contrary to popular belief, Miyamoto IS human and not unique and though he might never be duplicated with all of his innovative successes, I'll be happy if a developer can replicate 1 of his creations.
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Offline chaingunsofdoom

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2007, 04:51:22 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

The N64 controller was a good controller. As of now I would rank the traditional controllers as so

1. Xbox 360
...


Second post on this page with this one as #1 and I'm just baffled. Sure, it's a solid design, but the clicking sticks were a horrendous 'innovation'. One example: Playing GRAW and your guy ducks/crawl instead of moving cause you accidentally clicked-in on the left stick, or worse you zoom-in on your scope with a right stick click instead of turning around. Either way you're toast.

This can't just be a 'me' thing either... when we play 4x4 multiplayer games, there are multiple people complaining every time we play.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back? (or vice versa?)
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2007, 08:08:08 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: chaingunsofdoom
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

The N64 controller was a good controller. As of now I would rank the traditional controllers as so

1. Xbox 360
...


Second post on this page with this one as #1 and I'm just baffled. Sure, it's a solid design, but the clicking sticks were a horrendous 'innovation'. One example: Playing GRAW and your guy ducks/crawl instead of moving cause you accidentally clicked-in on the left stick, or worse you zoom-in on your scope with a right stick click instead of turning around. Either way you're toast.

This can't just be a 'me' thing either... when we play 4x4 multiplayer games, there are multiple people complaining every time we play.


One game definately proves whether a controller is good enough or not. GRAW had too many action buttons for its own good and personally can't stand the game because of this. It was like they took every action they could think of and give it a button, which makes things overly complex and quite stupid.
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