Topic: Is Miyamoto Past His Prime?

[Requiem]

This thread is some what pointless.

You guys think that Miyamoto isn't crazy about his games? That somehow, since he's not hacking code that he's not thoroughly involved in the process? Do you really think that he doesn't have the authority he needs? This is Nintendo's lead man; the go-to-guy, if you will. Sure he is being spread "thin" in order to insure each game is touched by brilliance, but that doesn't mean he won't up-end a table if he doesn't like what he sees. He is in the perfect position, and it is a position that he needs to be in.

Also, this man was born to develop games. Do you really think that with the Wii's new degree of interaction, that he isn't constantly thinking about the next big game? There maybe a time where he gets an idea that is too brilliant for any other person to develop it, and as a result he develops it. That's great! With his status, he can do whatever he wants!

But back to the original question......WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING! Wait till he retires to bring up such a question!

[Dasmos]

lol @ this stupid thread.

Miyamoto will have plenty of development teams ready to take over his reign when he leaves. The fact that he is  advising and "holding the hands of" many Nintendo development teams is to teach them. You don't teach someone to swim by throwing them into the deep end and hope they swim. They need guidance at first, they need to be told when they aren't on the right track (e.g Retro and Metroid Prime). You can't comment on if they can survive without Miyamoto because is yet to be seen, anything suggesting to the contrary is baseless rubbish.

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Originally posted by: TrueNerd
You beat me to it. The greatest game that Nintendo or anyone has ever made, Super Metroid.

Oh wow, because that isn't subjective.

[oohhboy]

I am sure regardless if Shiggy is past his prime or not, no one at Nintendo is stupid enough to think him immortal. If it was me, I would have plans in place to take care of things should something happen to him. Besides, Nintendo wasn't built by or on one man alone. Iron Fist Yamaguchi left without the company skipping a beat, if nothing else, the new blood in the form of Iwata has reversed Nintendos fortunes.

Shiggy still is and remains one of the best game designers out there with the widest and deepest portfilo of anybody.

[couchmonkey]

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Originally posted by: IceCold

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Games like Brain Training sold well because Nintendo focused them on a huge market of people who usually don't play video games. They fall outside of the typical market. That's why I consider them niche

Well. Now the "typical market" is niche.

Quite true, old bean!  Seriously, when Wii Sports just sits there in the Japanese top 5 week after week, you know the market is changing.  Much like "casual gamers" made Madden, Grand Theft Auto, and a zillion movie liscences mainstream in North America, "non gamers" are making Brain Training, Wii Sports and Animal Crossing mainstream in Japan - and it's spreading here, Brain Training was one of the top 10 games in North America for 2006.

Edit: as for the general topic here, Nintendo has brought Miyamoto in the forefront partially because superstar developers have become a trend in recent years.  How many of us knew names like Naka, Kojima, Ancel, Molyneux, or Itagaki 10 years ago?  Even 5 years ago?  In terms of actual game development, I don't think he's as involved as we think.  Take Zelda - reading about Twighlight Princess, it seems like all Miyamoto did was playtest the game every few weeks.  He gives a lot of important suggestions but the day-to-day work of the projects is being handled by others like Aonuma or Tezuka.

[ryancoke]

if Super Mario Galaxy turns out to be the AAA game that everybody assumes it is, it will prove that Miyamoto has alot of creativity left in him.

[Pittbboi]

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Well. Now the "typical market" is niche.

I disagree.

The selling power of PS2 and the fact that the MS was able to surpass Nintendo in just one generation with a "hardcore" system like the Xbox should be proof of the power of the "typical market".

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great feat that Nintendo was able to introduce an entire new market to the industry, but at the same time, if you go after a different market by making games to cater directly to them and they bite, you can't call them the new industry focus market until longevity is proved. The market isn't so much changing, gamers still want the same kinds of games they've always wanted. It's just that Nintendo has now focused on a new market with a particular branch of their games.

I'm reminded of a particular toy fad of the 1990s: the tamagotchi. Technically a "game", that thing took the world by storm and sold over 40 million units and spawned several copycats that went on to sell like crazy themselves. According to the logic being applied to Nintendo's new bunch of non-gamer games (Nintendogs, especially), the tamagotchi should have "redefined" the gaming market and every game should have been made in the same vein of the tamagotchi because no other "game" at its time sold as well or introduced as many non-gamers to the market (the same could STILL be said of it). Nobody was claiming the market was "changing" then, and sure enough, when people got tired of them, the tamagotchi was just about forgotten. It was a fad.

Nintendo's catering to a different market with its non-gamer games, but that market isn't the new-gamer market, it's the non-gamer market. Fads will come and go, non-gamers will come and go whenever something pops up that appeals directly to them, but gamers will always be a primary focus of the gaming industry, people who play games. Niche games can be successes, Nintendo has proved that and the tamogotchi proved that years before them, but if they fall outside of that primary market I still just consider them niche games.


Anyway--I agree mostly with Adrock. To me it seems more like Miyamoto's more than just holding the young developer's hands. If that's the case then why is he still doing that for developers who have been with Nintendo almost as long as he has? Where's Miyamoto's next Pikmin, and why is it taking so long? I'm one to believe it's because he's busy holding everyone else's hands on their projects.

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If we could hear more from the designers, programmers, artists, even from NCL's board, then we'd could equate Nintendo to more than just the names I mentioned above. I just learned from this thread the man responsible for Animal Crossing!

I agree with this, too. Nintendo could definitely let more developers take the spotlight if they are indeed trying to raise new talent. They might have done so in Nintendo Power but, then again, that's not exactly introducing them to the gaming community at large.

[Ian Sane]

"Inevitably it's not the artist who's past his prime, it's the public that loses interest in the artists work. An artist is judged solely on how his work is received, however fair or unfair that is. If the public becomes immune to his creations because they're expected, or the next big thing has shown it's ugly face, it is the fault of the public/consumer."

I think as a creative person it would eventually become more difficult to come up with new ideas.  Plus what if someone doesn't see an artist's work in the correct order?  If he saw the new stuff first then wouldn't he like that the best and then think the early works weren't as good because it wasn't as fresh to him?  But there have been times where I have not been familiar with an artist's work and didn't think much of it and then later was introduced to early stuff and thought it was fantastic.  No current trend or public perception affected that.

"So what was Miyamoto's prime then? His NES days of creating Super Mario Bros., and The Legend of Zelda? Or his N64 days of creating Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time?"

I'd argue it was from Super Mario Bros. to Ocarina of Time.  Yeah it's over ten years but the work of that period is amazing.  It seemed like almost every year Miyamoto was involved in one of the greatest games of all time.  If I was to pick a smaller period of time I would say it would be the late 80's/early 90's.  Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario World, A Link to the Past.  Yeah.

[Deguello]

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Nintendo has proved that and the tamogotchi proved that years before them, but if they fall outside of that primary market I still just consider them niche games.

What, so Nintendogs doesn't count because you say so?  Shut up Pittbboi.  They are not niche, just like the Sims aren't niche.  Niche = obscure and small, not wildly successful and the best selling Handheld game this gen.  Your opinion about whether Nintendogs is a "game" or not or whether it falls into your opinion of the "primary market" or not is frankly immaterial and irrelevant.  It's not up to you, twerp.  Nintendogs IS a video game.  You can call it a fad if you want, but "fad" was thrown around in 1998 when Pokemon was released here.  Not saying Nintendogs will follow suit, but statements like that have been very, very wrong before.

You are just flailing about with no point now.  It's not worth correcting you or arguing with you, because you'll always retreat into opinion, or come up with new crap that doesn't make any more sense than the previous post.  If you can't muster up a competent argument as to the topic other than your own opinion, then it all becomes opinion.  And if it is all opinion, then it is my opinion that this thread is full of stupid and should be locked.

In fact, let's codify this challenge:

In order to prove that Miyamoto is "past his prime," you have to demonstrate all of the following things:

1. The games he directs receive no accolade or achieve no consensus in the market as quality.
2. The games he directs have no market value or market impact.

It can't be "Well I think his games got stale over time and I don't personally think he is as good anymore."

If you want an example of a game director who IS past his prime, take a look at Yuji Naka.  He isn't even in charge of his own creation anymore, and the last game he was personally involved in was Billy Hatcher, which bombed commercially, critically, and failed with the masses too.  He exists now as a little footnote from 1991-1997.

IF you can't prove this bold claim, then I will be very tempted to lock this thread.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Deguello

You are just flailing about with no point now.  It's not worth correcting you or arguing with you, because you'll always retreat into opinion, or come up with new crap that doesn't make any more sense than the previous post.  If you can't muster up a competent argument as to the topic other than your own opinion, then it all becomes opinion.  And if it is all opinion, then it is my opinion that this thread is full of stupid and should be locked.

In fact, let's codify this challenge:

In order to prove that Miyamoto is "past his prime," you have to demonstrate all of the following things:

1. The games he directs receive no accolade or achieve no consensus in the market as quality.
2. The games he directs have no market value or market impact.

Well, don't take this as a criticism, but I have to agree with Dequello here Pittboi. I feel sort of weirded out because Nintendogs is being dismissed out of hand despite its absolute domination, and because EAD is being pointed out for doing what they've always done since their inception. Wanting new IPs is one thing. Wanting Mario to be outsourced outside of Nintendo is completely something else.

Unless of course your point is NOT that Miyamoto is past his prime, but that Nintendo is misusing him. The second of the two points in your initial posts is much more understandable, and I think there's actually a good and fertile discussion on that topic and think that this thread should be about that, but if you're going to propose that Miyamoto himself is "past his prime" then I wonder if you have any specific points to that effect?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[segagamer12]

How on earth can anyone give Miyamoto credit for a game that was made by the late great Gumpei Yokoi!  I do not  ususally even *try* and correct people unless it pertains to false statments about Sega, but there is *one* guy at Nintendo I respect above all others and it is *this* man, who was far mroe influancial at Nintendo than Shigeru Miyamoto ever wanted to be.

This guy is resoponible for the Game and Watch, teh D-Pad, the gameBoy *AND* Metroid, ammong other things. To give the wrong man credit for his work, especially when he left the company in shame after his first major failure, and died not long after, is to compeltely deam the work the man did. It's one thing to say Shiggy is past in prime, but to use a game he didn't even create as an example of his greatness, thats wrong. I respect Miyamoto as well, a lot, enough in fact to try and spell his name correctly!

It was also mentioned but not fully elebroated on, but Pokemon, which is one of, if not the, most popular and sucessful Nintendo franchises out there, and it wasn't created by nor had Miyamoto had anything to do with its creation. Now if you are going to continue to argue that Miyamoto is past anything, start with making sure that *his* games are at least credite4d as *his* and the games that aren't make sure their creatores are given thier credit so that you can make an argument or point that has facts in it.


I am sorry, but like most people here, I grew up playing Mario, Zelda, Star Fox, Donkey Kong, and may other games made by this man you are trying to discredit. And I continue to see him create magical experiences for the young people today. Not to mention that Nintendogs, one of the *best* selling games on the DS, which is also his creation, is still very much a game. Also you said that Tamgachi, and Nintendogs, don't qualify for whatever your argument is, because they didn't change the fundametals of gaming, WTF is that about? Are yous aying that once a great game comes out *every* major game afterwards has to copy it? Because that is how I read your post, as did others  aparently based on the responses.

Now subject at hand, No I do not think he is past his prime because he continues to make magical experiences for people today just like he did when I was a kid. I agree with Yuji Naka, he received as much critical accliam and commercial sucess during his time as anyother great developer, but he has even stated himself he does't have the heart for it anymore. Now he is undersifferent cisumstances though, his company got kicked around and dragged through the mud one to many times and failure after failure will eventualy drag a man down.

[Adrock]

Whether Miyamoto is past his prime is an opinion either way. He's been known for creating genres and his games have seen innumerable copycats. I haven't seen many Pikmin or Nintendogs clones. I think Miyamoto is past his prime for many reasons. However, he can still be past his prime and a good game designer. Michael Jordan was still an amazing basketball player past his prime. The "past his prime" description doesn't automatically mean "bad." That's the big misconception in this thread.

[Maverick]

Let's just hope Miyamoto doesn't come out of retirement two or three times and switch to another console a la Jordan.  ;-)

[Pittbboi]

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What, so Nintendogs doesn't count because you say so? Shut up Pittbboi. They are not niche, just like the Sims aren't niche. Niche = obscure and small, not wildly successful and the best selling Handheld game this gen. Your opinion about whether Nintendogs is a "game" or not or whether it falls into your opinion of the "primary market" or not is frankly immaterial and irrelevant. It's not up to you, twerp. Nintendogs IS a video game. You can call it a fad if you want, but "fad" was thrown around in 1998 when Pokemon was released here. Not saying Nintendogs will follow suit, but statements like that have been very, very wrong before.

What the heck are you talking about? Niche doesn't just mean obscure and small--look the word up.  I'm not calling these games niche because they're obscure and small, in fact I've said before that it's a great feat that Nintendo was able to make these games the successes they indeed are; I call these games niche because they're developed from the ground up to appeal directly to people you wouldn't necessarily consider gamers. Pure and simple, so I don't know what you're grasping at but it definitely isn't my opinion. Calm down, it isn't that serious.

I never said Nintendogs wasn't a game, or that it didn't count--I said it was a different kind of game. I likened it to the tamagotchi, and it definitely is an evolution of that concept, and it is of my opinion that because of that it could be attracting the same market. The very same market that fled the tamagotchi the second it became uncool. Because of that I'm reluctant to say that the market is changing, but I'm definitely NOT saying that the games don't count outright. You have your example with pokemon of a game that became much more than a fad, and I have my example with tamagotchi of a game that started as a fad, remained a fad, and died as a fad.

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And if it is all opinion, then it is my opinion that this thread is full of stupid and should be locked.

When has this thread ever been anything more than my opinion? And isn't that one of the points of forums? The title of this thread is a question, not a statement of fact.

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In order to prove that Miyamoto is "past his prime," you have to demonstrate all of the following things:

1. The games he directs receive no accolade or achieve no consensus in the market as quality.
2. The games he directs have no market value or market impact.

I couldn't disagree with this challenge more. A person can demonstrate all of these qualities with their work in their respective fields and STILL be considered past their prime.  Being past your prime just means that your best work is behind you--not that all of your current work sucks. Someone had the perfect example earlier with the film industry. Steven Spielberg is considered by a lot of people (including himself) to be past his prime-- that his best movies are behind him and he probably won't top his earlier work. however, with that said, he is STILL considered to be a premier movie director--deservedly so-- and why? Because he STILL makes great movies.

Your example with Yuji Naka is the unfortunate tale of someone who is more than just past his prime: His career is teetering just above dead. Shigeru Miyamoto is nowhere near ever meeting that same fate, but that doesn't mean his best work isn't behind him. Some people will agree that he is, some people won't. The very concept is a matter of--here's that word again-- opinion. In fact, I think Ian likened Pikmin to Miyamoto's best work while someone else said that Pikmin wasn't their cup of tea. This thread is a discussion of who thinks he is and who thinks he isn't and why, and how his position at Nintendo could be affecting his personal performance. It was never a thread where I tried to turn my opinion into fact.

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IF you can't prove this bold claim, then I will be very tempted to lock this thread.

This "bold claim" is merely a question to incite discussion. And in fact near the beginning I stated that I don't think Miyamoto is past his prime, but his current position at Nintendo could definitely be hindering his own creative energies. I didn't jump in this thread with "NINTENDO IS PAST HIS PRIME AND I'M GOING TO PROVE IT WITH CONJECTURE!" I think you misunderstood my point.  

[Kairon]

Then can we change the title of the thread now?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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Then can we change the title of the thread now?

I would like to in order to avoid the drama of people somehow thinking that because I asked the question then I obviously must hate Miyamoto and want to spit in his face and kill his favorite pet, and there is definitely more to the point of this thread than the yes or no answer. But, at the same time, a few people have actually, you know, answered the question with more than "Pittbboi you're an idiot for even asking". And, to my shock, some people actually do believe Miyamoto is past his prime.

[couchmonkey]

The post really had virtually nothing to do with the "look at me" title.

Miyamoto has changed, the last interview I read with him was pretty interesting - he seems to be getting into more projects outside of Nintendo and the last project that seems to get closely related to Miyamoto is Nintendogs, which was not a normal video game in any sense.  I don't think he's past his prime, though, I actually think it's a testament to Miyamoto's diversity and focus on entertaining that he can come up with products that break the mould and grab a whole new audience.  He's not just some guy making games for himself.

[Pittbboi]

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The post really had virtually nothing to do with the "look at me" title.

I can assure you that I didn't have "look at me" in mind when I came up with the title. lol

The question itself wasn't the only thing I wanted to bring up with my first post. But can you honestly say that the question wouldn't have been totally glossed over had I not initially presented it in the title? It was a question I wanted to see answered by people, afterall. And some people are answering it without taking offense.

[IceCold]

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I can assure you that I didn't have "look at me" in mind when I came up with the title. lol

Then why don't you change it?

[Pittbboi]

Give me a different title that still conveys that I want that particular question answered and I will.

[Kairon]

Is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

Hmmm... and an "(or vice versa)" at the end there to make it meld better with your original post...

lol

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

I feel respected, appreciated, listened to, and all warm and fuzzy! Thanky you!

/happy

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
(or vice versa)

You know...actually, that wasn't something I originally considered, but it's definitely something to think about.

I can't find the article now, but I think I remember reading somewhere that Nintendo originally didn't think the nunchuck attachment was fitting for the wiimote, but the developers they initially unveiled the controller to pleaded for the attachment because the wiimote alone wouldn't provide enough functionality for a lot of games. Even now some developers claim that the Wiimote even with the nunchuck attachment just doesn't provide enough functionality and accessible buttons for certain traditional games.

It's clear that Nintendo developed the wiimote with Miyamoto's minimalist design philosophy in mind. I guess that could be an example of Miyamoto holding Nintendo back, if you agree that is the case.

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I feel respected, appreciated, listened to, and all warm and fuzzy! Thanky you!

/happy

Well, contrary to popular belief, it isn't my goal to tick people off on this board. lol

[Kairon]

Yeah... that's an idea I've been playing around with in my head for a bit. If Miyamoto isn't culturally relevant anymore in his philosophies, then he may be keeping Nintendo from breaking out of its fanboi niche...

And then the DS and Nintendogs happened...*sighs happily*

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Deguello]

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You have your example with pokemon of a game that became much more than a fad, and I have my example with tamagotchi of a game that started as a fad, remained a fad, and died as a fad.

Tamagotchi isn't as dead as you might believe.  It's still breathing somewhat in Japan.

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When has this thread ever been anything more than my opinion? And isn't that one of the points of forums? The title of this thread is a question, not a statement of fact.

You can't hide behind "it's my opinion" when you don't back it up.  Your opinion of Miyamoto being past his prime is evidenced by your FURTHER opinion of his games since 1998.  That's like buying stock on margin.  It's not founded on solid ground.  And yeah while it may be a question, think if I posted this: "Is Pittbboi a Flaming Homosexual? Discuss."  You even started the thread with:  "Ok, before we get into it I would just like to say that I am NOT trying to incite a flame war here."  You rationalized it before you even started.

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I couldn't disagree with this challenge more. A person can demonstrate all of these qualities with their work in their respective fields and STILL be considered past their prime. Being past your prime just means that your best work is behind you--not that all of your current work sucks.

BUT we won't know where his prime IS until he quits.  Not only have you cast summary judgment on his work from 1998-present, with your assumption that his prime was before that, you have cast summary judgment on all of his future works as well, which if you think about it, is very disrespectful.  You're trying to set up a self-fulfilling prophecy here.  By saying Miyamoto's best days are behind him, you are inclining yourself to be disappointed and dismayed when say... Miyamoto announces like... Bardruk the Tornado on the Wii or something.  "Well his best work is behind him anyway."  Who says?  You?

And my challenge is astute.  It was you who judged Pikmin by saying it was short-lived.  Short-lived how?  Do you KNOW that there will be no Pikmin 3?  Why?  Sales?  Critical reception? (you said the second was "rushed")  You are the one saying Miyamoto means less now than before.  You are the one saying his best days are behind him and his games are not doing as well as they should.  You have to back it up with more than "I think so."  This is why I used Yuji Naka.  His career might actually BE dead, or maybe not, there is a little glimmer of a chance.  But it is only fair to judge the concert when the set is over, not after they've played your favorite ditty.

BTW what is this thread ABOUT anymore?  It started with Miyamoto being past his prime and that they need new blood, and then it became about how Miyamoto has too much control over projects, and then became how Miyamoto doesn't have enough control over projects, and is now about how Nintendo is holding back Miyamoto.  Somebody print me out a map.

BTW, no way is Nintendo holding Miyamoto back.  You think any other company would have let Miyamoto make a game about dogs?  Forget its current success and put yourself in an E3 2005 mindset.  Nintendogs was a risky risk.  If Nintendo were holding him back we would have seen Zelda before Nintendogs.