Topic: Is Miyamoto Past His Prime?

[Pittbboi]

Ok, before we get into it I would just like to say that I am NOT trying to incite a flame war here. I would like people to, just for a moment, turn away from the Shigeru Miyamoto shrines and ponder this question.

Is Shigeru Miyamoto past his prime?

I guess the better question is, should Nintendo stop relying on Miyamoto as their bread and butter developer/producer? Because it's quite apparent that Miyamoto can still churn out a great game, but my concern is that Nintendo is relying way too much on him, to the point where it may be stifling his creativity. Ever since the Fall of Nintendo with the N64 it seems that they have really been pushing Miyamoto because he was one of the few things that worked. He was already god-like with his NES and SNES games, but it wasn't until the N64 and the departure of major 3rd parties that his games became the REASON to own a Nintendo console. His games, and the various spin-offs they spawned have been, largely, what kept Nintendo afloat. So it's understandable that Nintendo regards him as their precious commodity and the ace up their sleeve.

But is this ultimately a bad thing? I mean, I love Miyamoto as much as the next guy, but even I have to admit that, starting from midway through the N64's life his games, while great, have become stale. They all lack the innovative edge that made his earlier works legendary. Even Twilight Princess, easily his most anticipated game that's been reeleased, has been touted by diehard fans to be great, but still just more of the same Zelda gameplay with no real innovation. His big name franchises have been so overused that almost ALL of them lack the sway they once head, no matter how great they are.

I personally believe it's because his creative energies are spread over way too many projects. Nintendo, as well as his fans, are starting to expect way too much of him, more than he's probably currently capable of. Nintendo fans have become gamers who mostly thrive on Miyamoto games, hungrily waiting for the next installment to one of his big franchises. I think that, in his rush to make sure people have the next big Mario/Zelda/Metroid game, he hasn't had time to do what he does best: Innovate and create new and inspiring IPs in his sleep. Sure, there was the short-lived Pikmin series, but you could tell by the marketing that Nintendo wasn't really putting their stock into those games like they would have in their SNES days, and Pikmin 2 was terribly rushed. There was the phenomenon known as Nintendogs, but of his upcoming major releases the only one that seems to be set to really innovate in it's genre is Super Mario Galaxy--which, again, is another Mario game.

Miyamoto is easily the greatest developer of all time, but let's face the facts: the man's getting older. Should he really be carrying the brunt of the work? I don't think so. In my opinion, Nintendo should really start to focus on new talent. Fresh new faces with different outlooks on gaming and different styles and philosophies to contribute to Nintendo. Take some of the weight off of Miyamoto, and let his creativity flourish like it used to when Nintendo didn't need his games to survive. Sure, it might mean less Miyamoto games, but I think the payoff would be more innovative, hype-grabbing, industry shaking masterpieces of the sort that defined his earlier career.      

[Deguello]

No.

[The Omen]

No.  

[Kairon]

I've posed this issue many times before, but I framed it differently:

Are Miyamoto and his values becoming irrelevant in today's gaming culture? Case in point: Pikmin. Who makes a game about gardening in today's day and age, when inner city kids are more familiar with concrete than grass?

... But I think that Nintendo's new non-gamer direction has shown Miyamotos values, ideas, and innovations are still a part of what videogamers can be and should be, even if Mario is no longer the culturally significant icon he was before.

In fact Pittboi, you question whether he should be relied upon as much. The fact is that he isn't the core progenitor of Nintendo anymore (though he was for virtually forever). Animal Crossing was essentially someone else's idea, as was Brain Training. Wario Ware, also, came from a different source. And if you pay close attention, you'll start noticing a periphery of producers who are starting to take more and more responsibility for different Nintendo projects.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Pittbboi]

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Animal Crossing was essentially someone else's idea, as was Brain Training. Wario Ware, also, came from a different source. And if you pay close attention, you'll start noticing a periphery of producers who are starting to take more and more responsibility for different Nintendo projects.

Yeah, but those are all very niche titles. Nintendo is still relying on Miyamoto's direction for most of its major, system selling games. The exception being Smash Bros. which was mostly Sakurai's work from what I know, though it's still based mostly on Miyamoto's creations.

[Smash_Brother]

He's not talking about retiring Miyamoto. He's talking about not relying on him to the extent that Nintendo does to bring out salable franchises so Miyamoto can do more of his own thing.

I agree: I think Miyamoto is being pushed so hard into sequeldom that he has no time to try new things. Pikmin may not have been my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean he doesn't likely still have some excellent ideas in him which aren't being used because he's spread so thin right now.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Actually I had a similar topic to this except I thought Nintendo was underutilizing Miyamoto. Instead of focusing on one game, he now watches over a bunch of different ones. Is this good to help out up and coming designers? Perhaps but on the flip side we may never again see that "Miyamoto" magic at work. BTW what games did Miyamoto lose his magic on during the N64 era? If memory serves me correctly he had SM64, OOT, and Mario Kart 64, besides those games I don't recall any other game that he was the primary designer of.

[Smash_Brother]

Yeah, they seem to use him more as a nanny than a developer these days.

I'm sure the man still has ideas. It would be better if someone were just writing them down to implement them at some point.

[Pittbboi]

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I think Miyamoto is being pushed so hard into sequeldom that he has no time to try new things.

This is basically my entire point in a nutshell.

While I think there should be another Zelda game because TP was still technically a Gamecube game, I honestly wouldn't care if the upcoming Metroid and Mario games were the last to appear on the Wii if it meant Miyamoto was freed up a bit to create at least one original, epic game for the Wii with the same magic that he had back in his early days.  

[Deguello]

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Yeah, but those are all very niche titles.

You cannot fathom how wrong you are, Pittbboi.

[Pittbboi]

Well why don't you explain to me how wrong I am. So far all you've done is made a one-line, piggyback statement.

The games Kairon listed are all great games, but they're still, well, second-tier on the list of important Nintendo games. The one exception I would say is Brain Training.

All of Nintendo's main, AAA titles are your typical Mario/Metroid/Zelda games.

[Smash_Brother]

He's right: the games that sell Nintendo systems tend to still be the Miyamoto franchises.

I think we should see a bit less of that, though, what with 3rd parties actually stepping up to the plate this time around and filling in the lineup gaps.

[Nick DiMola]

What they need to do is spread Miyamoto around and let him teach the new generation of developers that way, by the time the next generation rolls around he can focus on new IPs and the sequels can be handled by others, much like Aonuma(sp?) and Zelda. That's just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

[Artimus]

I think he is past his prime. When your prime is SMB 3, LttP, SMW and Ocarina, how could you ever top that? But I also agree with the idea that he's spread to thin.

I think it's time to give him a small development studio that he runs and just let him design games.

[trip1eX]

Of course he's past his prime.  

[MarioAllStar]

I think with Miyamoto's supervisor-type role, his natural talent is still evident, but spread thinner. I'm sure that every game he touches is made better by his support, but I would prefer that his efforts be concentrated into one game. I want to play a game like Super Mario Bros. 3 or A Link to the Past and be overwhelmed by its greatness.

Right now, Miyamoto works to make many games better, rather than make one game great. I would like to see that change.

[MarioAllStar]

This Wikipedia article is interesting. Mario Galaxy is his first time to take the director role since Ocarina of Time (1998) and Mario Artist (1999). For most of his games, he is credited as the producer, including classics like Super Mario World, A Link to the Past, and StarFox (SNES and 64).

So he technically still has as much influence over the design as he once did. The problem is either (a) he has lost his talent or (b) his talent is spread too thin. I believe it is the latter.  

[Adrock]

Instead of mentoring new talent, Miyamoto has been babysitting entire projects. Nintendo needs to start trusting their younger designers more. Miyamoto has final say on anything anyone at Nintendo makes. He's a talented game designer, but that method doesn't actually prepare Nintendo development teams in the long run. I would love to see Miyamoto settle on one or two projects to focus on while occasionally adding imput on other Nintendo titles. That's a lot different than when he'd fly to Europe to tell Rare how much they sucked then flying to Texas to tell Retro that Metroid sucked and to change this and that. He'll always be the man at Nintendo because he's set such a high standard for excellence, but someone has to be allowed to emerge at Nintendo and have the last word on their own projects. Even Eiji Aonuma, at like age 43, still seems like Miyamoto's sidekick.

At the very least, Nintendo could start hiring and/or supporting established talent who have left 3rd parties. Do something. Miyamoto isn't going to be around forever.

And he's probably past his prime. However, that doesn't mean he's not still good at what he does.

[Pittbboi]

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but someone has to be allowed to emerge at Nintendo and have the last word on their own projects.

That's a great point. I love Miyamoto to death, but if he remains the man to have the last word on just about every Nintendo game, none of the young, up and coming Nintendo developers will ever develop their own style. Sure, Miyamoto's final approval means the game definitely won't suck, but at the same time when he's finally retired, all Nintendo will be left with are a bunch of Miyamoto clones, with only minute variations from their personal styles.

[Smash_Brother]

I find movie directors tend to go downhill past 40. I'm not sure if it's losing touch with the general audience or what, but they definitely don't have the same touch as they used to. Just look at George Lucas and Spielberg: their recent projects haven't been anywhere near what their older ones were.

I hope the same isn't true for game directors...

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi when he's finally retired, all Nintendo will be left with are a bunch of Miyamoto clones, with only minute variations from their personal styles.

I'd be more afraid that we'll be left with a bunch of devs with no clue how to develop games without supervision.

[Deguello]

Brain Training is not niche.  It has sold 1 million copies in America
Animal Crossing is not niche.  It has also sold a million copies in America.
Wario Ware is a solid series, with the DS version culling about 500,000 in America.  More than two million world wide.

These are not "niche" games.

And speaking of Miyamoto games, his last one, Nintendogs, just shot past 12 million units worldwide.  Which is to say, it is more of a cultural impact, and is a bigger series compared to Halo, or Final Fantasy, or Metal Gear Solid.  It's extremely popular in Europe, where it single-handedly decided the portable war.  Now I know the elite, online-gaming, online-online, hype-fueled, fist-pumping, may not count this as important, but it certainly is.  Miyamoto took a game about DOGS and was able to sell it to little girls and old women, two market though worthless and impossible to crack.  So I'd say he isn't "past his prime."  No sir.

His recent efforts include Wii Sports, which just crested a million in Japan and is the ONLY Next gen million seller as yet.  Wii Play he also worked on, and is also going to be a million seller, possibly here too.  These titles contain the "innovative edge" you say is missing.  Oh and this little game called New Super Mario Bros., which is the best selling Mario platformer of all time in Japan.

Kairon is correct.  You seem to centralize Nintendo around Miyamoto like he's the only thing good or important about Nintendo these days.  And so you take your opinion of his work since the N64 days and pass summary judgment on everything since, blind to success or accolades earned, awards and earnings glossed over.  Why is Pikmin "short-lived?"  It has that "innovative edge" you seek, there is no other game like it.  It sold moderately well, at least.  Why is it glossed over?

You also seem to think Miyamoto and Nintendo made oodles and oodles of new IP during the SNES days.  False, to say the least.  In fact, Miyamoto did two "new" things on the SNES.  Starfox, and Stunt Race FX.  Averaged together, both are about as successful, as, say... Pikmin.  Which seems to "not count."

The feeling "loss of innovative edge" can basically be explained by the fact that it is hard to top making the very cheat sheets to 3D platformers and 3D Action-Adventure games.  If you are using that as the litmus test, has ANYBODY done ANYTHING that innovative since?

You also call for new blood without realizing that there is already new blood, and has been since 2000.  You just can't be arsed to notice because you are too busy calling for new blood.

[Ian Sane]

I think he's likely past his prime but I think Nintendo itself as a game developer is past their prime and it's hard to say if that's reflective of his talents specifically.  If given completely freedom he could make totally different games than he is now.  I doubt he can just do what he wants.  He gets told to make a new Mario or Zelda.  He's tied to old franchises which gives him less flexibility to experiment.

I think Nintendo shouldn't spread him around so much but it's not just because he may be able to make something better if he concentrates on one project.  I think Nintendo just needs more variety.  If he's involved with every title then his influence is everywhere and then everything starts feeling like an EAD game.  I love EAD games but I don't want every game to play like that.  I think it be beneficial for Nintendo if their individual teams developed their own unique styles.  But there is a problem that not every dev is equal.  Sometimes they need someone like Miyamoto to oversee things to get things right.

One thing Nintendo should be doing however is planning for a post-Miyamoto future.  The guy has to retire someday and even if didn't he would eventually die.  Nintendo can't rely too much on him or they'll be screwed the second he's gone.  The younger devs need to reach a point where they can make videogame masterpieces without consulting Miyamoto even once.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
The games Kairon listed are all great games, but they're still, well, second-tier on the list of important Nintendo games. The one exception I would say is Brain Training.

I'm tempted to think that that's your hardcore gamer preferences taking over Pittboi.

Brain Training, of course, was huge.

The Warioware games may be secondary, but they are, in essence, an extension of the immensely valuable Hudson-driven Mario party franchise.

But Animal Crossing is absolutely GINORMOUS if you're actually tracking sales of its DS release. Looking beyond, you'll find that Wii Sports, the Wii's flagship series and killer-app-in-the-box, is connected with Animal Crossing via Katsuya Eguchi.

And then there's no question about the heavy influence of Iwata, who's pushed for titles like Cooking Navi, Brain Training, and really gotten behind the non-gamer push for Nintendo. Worth noting is that Iwata himself is an outsider, from HAL and not Nintendo.

Not to mention, all of these aforementioned "niche titles" sell better than Metroid... and maybe even better than Zelda if you're just looking at the Japanese market.

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
All of Nintendo's main, AAA titles are your typical Mario/Metroid/Zelda games.

I... really don't see any significance in that statement given that Mario and Zelda are EAD's bread and butter and development of these titles are a given and that it's practically always been ERAD making these games anyways... AND with the increasing size of teams, these games are likely to take up a lot of EAD's resources. And of course Metroid is not developed by Nintendo, and has grown ever more Retro's and NST's domain ever since that first critical birthing period.

And of course, since Nintendo is comprised of more than EAD, I think this statement's scope is far too narrow to be of any use here.

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Should he really be carrying the brunt of the work? I don't think so. In my opinion, Nintendo should really start to focus on new talent. Fresh new faces with different outlooks on gaming and different styles and philosophies to contribute to Nintendo. Take some of the weight off of Miyamoto, and let his creativity flourish like it used to when Nintendo didn't need his games to survive. Sure, it might mean less Miyamoto games, but I think the payoff would be more innovative, hype-grabbing, industry shaking masterpieces of the sort that defined his earlier career.

In the end though, I have to agree with you. It seems like for a lot of people, Miyamoto is coming dangerously close to being used as a crutch. And with everyone conceding to him, there seems a lack of radically different visions being proposed internally in Nintendo. No one seems to be stepping up to take Miyamoto's place, no one seems to be yielding broad and powerful philosophies... except for Iwata.

... this is not to say that he shouldn't oversee things: from what I read, TP would've been an absolute mess (read: third party AAA quality, not Nintendo AAA quality) without his guidance.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Deguello

And speaking of Miyamoto games, his last one, Nintendogs, just shot past 12 million units worldwide.  Which is to say, it is more of a cultural impact, and is a bigger series compared to Halo, or Final Fantasy, or Metal Gear Solid.  It's extremely popular in Europe, where it single-handedly decided the portable war.  Now I know the elite, online-gaming, online-online, hype-fueled, fist-pumping, may not count this as important, but it certainly is.  Miyamoto took a game about DOGS and was able to sell it to little girls and old women, two market though worthless and impossible to crack.  So I'd say he isn't "past his prime."  No sir.

His recent efforts include Wii Sports, which just crested a million in Japan and is the ONLY Next gen million seller as yet.  Wii Play he also worked on, and is also going to be a million seller, possibly here too.  These titles contain the "innovative edge" you say is missing.  Oh and this little game called New Super Mario Bros., which is the best selling Mario platformer of all time in Japan.

Nintendogs is a great example of what Miyamoto can achieve with more focused attention. Absolutely amazing AND, important to myself, culturally relevant!

However, I connect Wii Sports in my mind to Katsuya Eguchi, who also worked on the Animal Crossing series. Miyamoto's involvement in this and Wii Play were, to me, more on the side of the controller technology and not the game design.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

"Just look at George Lucas and Spielberg: their recent projects haven't been anywhere near what their older ones were."

When was George Lucas a good director?  I agree about Spielberg though.  It seems like every film I've seen of his for the last several years go on for a least half an hour after I expect the ending.  A.I., Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can, Munich.  For every one of those films I was thinking "when is this movie over?" which is something I shouldn't be thinking.  The Godfather and Lord of the Rings films go on for three hours and I'm never checking my watch even once with those.

Deguello are we talking commercial success or artistic success?  To me Pikmin is a major recent success story for Miyamoto because it's as good as his best work while I found Brain Training to be as exciting as school work but it's a huge seller.  I don't know what Pittbboi means but there is a big difference there.  I would say Miyamoto is past his prime because his best games are behind him regardless of how well they sell.