Author Topic: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...  (Read 102145 times)

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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #275 on: June 21, 2007, 05:49:38 AM »
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Originally posted by: Deguello
Art in fact, DOES fall under man-made laws.  Would you argue that child pornography is art?  You could.  But its wrong and illegal.  Displaying a dead body is in poor taste and has been illegal for a long time.  The Bodies exhibit is different in that it is quasi-scientific in nature and they mostly got consent, but the ones that they may have not raise serious ethical issues.  Hypothetically, suppose I wanted to use your blood as my paint.  Since art is apparently free from man-made laws, I can bludgeon you and paint daisies on your wall in your blood.  Now I'd imagine you'd how a problem with that and would not consent.  But you would have just about as much consent as those contested dead bodies, or a very young child being abused by their guardians.

In what way is displaying a dead body illegal?  Are open casket funerals against the law?  Those plastinated body exhibits are hard for me to judge.  I think there's nothing wrong with them as long as everyone on display gave fully informed consent when they were alive.  If they didn't give consent, then their bodies should be taken out of the exhibits and given proper burials.  Does that change whether it's art, though?  Assume for a moment that it is art, and compare it to an established, accepted art form.  If someone stole paint in order to create a painting, would the painting, the actual creative act, not be art?  If a block of marble was stolen and made into a statue, would the statue not be art just because the sculptor had no right to make it?  In either case, if the crime had not been committed, the materials had been obtained legally, and the resulting piece was exactly the same, would the work be art then?

It seems to me that the creative act, the thing we judge to be art or not, is separate from the acquisition of material.  The crime committed does not necessarily influence the art itself.  In your own example, the crimes committed are assault, battery and vandalism.  Using blood for paint is not specifically a crime that I know of, although it would certainly be informative during the trial.  That's not to say that art isn't subject to law.  Child pornography is illegal not just because it is itself harmful (and it is, since it encourages further harm to children), but also because the act of creating the stuff is illegal.  You abuse a child in the process.  Taking a provocative picture of a child is illegal regardless of whether you're making "art."  On the other hand, painting isn't illegal regardless of whether the paint is stolen.  Stealing paint is illegal regardless of whether it's used to create art.  They are separate acts and require separate judgments.

Quote

The real story hee is that the ESRB may be tightening down on games not that they are starting to look more realistic and in the Wii's case, control more viscerally.  I think same games that used to get M's might find themselves under the AO banner soon.


I have a lot to complain about when it comes to the M and AO ratings.  The AO rating says, "This is totally inappropriate for minors."  The M rating says, "This is totally inappropriate for 95% of minors."  There is no point in making that distinction.  The age guidelines for the ratings are 3, 6, 10, 13, 17, and 18.  There's a three to four year difference between each pair except for the last.  I understand why AO means 18 and older, because that's when you're legally no longer a minor and are responsible for your own screwups.  I just think that in light of that, the M rating doesn't really serve its purpose well.  They should either move it back to 16 or eliminate it and move T up to 14.  Obviously, they should tweak the criteria for the ratings if they do that, too.

The other big problem is that "Rated M for Mature" is quite possibly the best ad line to use on kids ever invented.  They should have come up with a drier name, or at least something that wouldn't attract kids.  Alternatively, they could have used something other than age-based ratings, avoiding the problem of kids wanting to be grown up entirely.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #276 on: June 21, 2007, 07:13:43 AM »
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Offline Adrock

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #277 on: June 21, 2007, 07:50:55 AM »
This game won't see the light of day in the U. S. and A (on consoles anyway) until Rockstar can bump it down to an M rating. Every other country will probably still ban it because they're losers.

It's at least a rental for me, possibly a collector's item. Yup, Manhunt 2 right next to my Final Fantasy 3 cartridge on SNES.  

Offline BranDonk Kong

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #278 on: June 21, 2007, 08:45:19 AM »
It's only a preliminary rating, isn't it? I really want this game, and the fact that it could be banned completely makes me want it even more.
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Offline Requiem

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #279 on: June 21, 2007, 09:27:07 AM »
UberNoob and PartyBear:

Those were two very compelling arguments.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #280 on: June 21, 2007, 09:29:27 AM »
ok im an art major, anything that is "man made" is art, thats why things created by people are called artificial. The only thing not art is made by nature. However lemme make a distinction taking photos of flowers in not art, planting the flower and then taking the photo is.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #281 on: June 21, 2007, 09:49:36 AM »
Is taking pictures of your cat and putting horrible captions on them, art?
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Offline cubist

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #282 on: June 21, 2007, 09:50:23 AM »
So IGN is reporting that NOA commented that they don't release AO rated games.  What kind of bullsh*t is this.  The rating system is in place so that we can make decisions...and Nintendo refuses to release the game if it has an AO rating???!?

I'm sorry but Nintendo really needs to get a stick out of its ass.  I've been a long time Nintendo loyalist and now that they're becoming the market leader again...they're going to start imposing their will...on canning games...and refusing to release them...as if not releasing Manhunt 2 will help their third party relationships.

Why do we need an AO rating anyway?!?...what's the difference between AO and Mature...someone 'splain to me...



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Offline EasyCure

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #283 on: June 21, 2007, 10:12:28 AM »
not sure where you read your news but the article i read said that nintendo and sony BOTH refuse to put an AO game on their platform.

it even stated that microsoft released statements saying that, if the game were on their system, they wouldnt let it happen either. so its not just nintendo.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #284 on: June 21, 2007, 10:29:23 AM »
"what's the difference between AO and Mature...someone 'splain to me..."

LOL difference between AO and M was something along the lines of "prolonged scenes of intense violence/fahking" versus "contains some scenes of violence/fahking".  Makes you wonder where RE4 falls given all the head-busting fun I had last night.

If Wii has software containing "prolonged scenes of intense anime girl moaning", I'd want the choice of NOT buying it be up to me, not Nintendo.  
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Offline Nemo

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #285 on: June 21, 2007, 10:38:13 AM »
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Originally posted by: ThePermThe only thing not art is made by nature.


Nature is art, too. God made it.

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Offline Requiem

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #286 on: June 21, 2007, 11:14:11 AM »
That's if you believe in God.
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I'm not a whore, ok? Really.....really, I'm not.

But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #287 on: June 21, 2007, 11:16:11 AM »
What if an alien made it?

Offline Requiem

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #288 on: June 21, 2007, 11:24:42 AM »
That's if you believe in Aliens.

What's your point?
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I'm not a whore, ok? Really.....really, I'm not.

But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline ShyGuy

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #289 on: June 21, 2007, 12:30:49 PM »
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Originally posted by: Requiem
That's if you believe in Aliens.

What's your point?


To mess with you mostly.

So, I see where Take2 has suspended Manhunt2 period. I wonder what the next move will be?
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Offline Sir_Stabbalot

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #290 on: June 21, 2007, 12:37:35 PM »
Either they re-work it to be less violent, or it's dead.
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Offline Requiem

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #291 on: June 21, 2007, 12:47:47 PM »
There's too much money in it already (sunk cost) to cancel it.
"Hey....

I'm not a whore, ok? Really.....really, I'm not.

But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline Deguello

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #292 on: June 21, 2007, 12:48:37 PM »
Actually yeah it is against the law to display a dead body in public PartyBear.  Pro-Life protesters get fined all the time for displaying dead fetuses at their rallies.  A funeral is a little different, as the point is to actually NOT display the dead body, but to bury/cremate it.  If a living breathing child can't give consent to be a part of pornographic art (we studied a case of a very pro-active 12-year-old girl who wished to be a part of it, screwed for life, she is.) then an executed felon certainly can't give consent to being a part of an artist's vision.

Again art does fall under man-made laws.  Because art is also man-made.  Show a bear the Mona Lisa and he might wipe his ass with it.  We set definitions for art that separate it from, say... this pencil.  Since we have things that are definitely and universally agreed upon as not being art, the only difference here is where the line's drawn.  The majority of people, and the industry itself, appear to be drawing the line at Manhunt 2.

Another thing strange is that the all of this "art" clamor presupposes that the game actually presents its violence in an artistic way.  What if it doesn't?  What if the raters are actually correct?  What if it is nothing more than just some violence with a loosely tied together plot whose only goal is to deliver depictions of violence, like pulling off testicles with a pair of pliers?  This certainly requires a little pause when you think about children playing this (just imagine what screwed up Ms. 12-year-old) or even worse, imagine a 27-year-old retarded man with the impressionable mind of a child and the power to exercise such acts.  Should he be restricted from getting it?  Is that fair?  You have to be this smart to enjoy your rights?

The AO hammer has to come down sometime, simply because the industry and its retailers have since been ineffective at keeping the sale of M rated games to  adults.  For example, just today I purchased the Wii edition of RE4 at Gamestop.  Guy did not card me, and received no prompt to do so, despite his repeated attempts to get me a subscription to a magazine.  Walmart gets the prompt.  "Is the customer 17?"  That's effective, but all the kid has to do is drag the parent who obviously brought him there to OK it.  I think it's time for there to be a fine for selling M-rated games to minors, just like there is a fine for allowing minors into R-rated movies.  

The AO rating hovered above M, like the green and blue levels of the terror alert, never to be used.  It is unnecessary and must be stripped, which of course would mean M becomes the top rating and would possibly make IT the poster child for stores to beat on, but that's what you get when you make 2 ratings mean the same thing.  
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Offline Requiem

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #293 on: June 21, 2007, 01:09:27 PM »
It's not in public, it's a museum. You pay to get in, which is one of the best ways to give your consent that you want to see such things. People at rallies showing fetuses is completely different. People who walk by don't want to see that shite, so they end up b@tching which in turn gives warrant to the fine.

Plus, it is for science and the greater good of knowledge (don't reply to this statement as I know what you are going to say; I just wanted to write it anyways) and not just art. My father, a DVM professor is completely facinated by it. He said he was also facinated by the animal version.

Which brings about my next question: If we are animals apart of the same animal kingdom that rules this earth, then why are we not able to study ourselves to every degree we study other animals? Sure, if someone did not give consent over their body then I can see the moral delima, but what about those that did (even if in the form of organ donating)?

Quote

The AO hammer has to come down sometime, simply because the industry and its retailers have since been ineffective at keeping the sale of M rated games to adults. For example, just today I purchased the Wii edition of RE4 at Gamestop. Guy did not card me, and received no prompt to do so, despite his repeated attempts to get me a subscription to a magazine. Walmart gets the prompt. "Is the customer 17?" That's effective, but all the kid has to do is drag the parent who obviously brought him there to OK it. I think it's time for there to be a fine for selling M-rated games to minors, just like there is a fine for allowing minors into R-rated movies.


This whole paragraph doesn't make any sense. So your saying just because RETAILERS are ineffective at abiding by the ESRB guidelines that it is the fault of the developer? So your saying DEVELOPERS should make less violent/sexual games just because it'll get to the kid anyways? Your saying that PARENTS have no authority over what their children read, watch, or play and that the children FORCE parents to give the purchase an ok? And because of all of this the "AO hammer has to come down sometime" simply to revoke it's right to be sold?

What the hell are you talking about?!  
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I'm not a whore, ok? Really.....really, I'm not.

But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline ryancoke

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #294 on: June 21, 2007, 02:23:54 PM »
so AO is for 18+ people and M is for 17+. Basically that's like saying a certain movie should be banned because it's rated R.  Have you ever seen a movie banned because it was rated R?  Never.  Nintendo, Sony and MS are retarded.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #295 on: June 21, 2007, 02:50:50 PM »
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Originally posted by: ryancoke
so AO is for 18+ people and M is for 17+. Basically that's like saying a certain movie should be banned because it's rated R.  Have you ever seen a movie banned because it was rated R?  Never.  Nintendo, Sony and MS are retarded.


...why are you comparing AO to an R rating? R is 17, so is "Mature" in the ESRB. The best parellel is with X, which became NC-17 in 1990.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #296 on: June 21, 2007, 03:33:16 PM »
But I've never seen an NC-17 movie be banned. Kids was NC-17, so was Show Girls. Kids was an underground hit...and Showgirls...ruined Jesse Spano forever.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #297 on: June 21, 2007, 03:41:36 PM »
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Originally posted by: Brandogg
But I've never seen an NC-17 movie be banned. Kids was NC-17, so was Show Girls. Kids was an underground hit...and Showgirls...ruined Jesse Spano forever.


But have you ever seen a NC-17 movie get a wide theatrical release? Show Girls is the only exception, which was seen as testing the waters... and failed at doing so, which reduced the rating to art house showings. If three companies owned all theaters in the US, to do a good connection with consoles, I think NC-17 in general wouldn't be screened at all. So I really don't see the current situation to be all that surprising.
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Offline UncleBob

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #298 on: June 21, 2007, 04:41:13 PM »
Okay, read through the last few posts in this thread and here's what I'd like to point out.  This really applies only to the US.  Other countries that don't enjoy our freedom of press, speech, etc... well... sorry.  Move here. (Legally, I might add).

Okay, here's the deal.  A whole lot of you are hypocrites.  I'm all for freedom of speech, etc., etc but here's the thing - Take Two is free to make their game however they see fit.  They can put whatever they want in it.  They can choose to submit it to the ESRB for a rating or to leave it unrated.  It's all up to them.  It's their "art".

However, y'all need to remember, if Take Two wants to officially release this game on a Nintendo or Sony console, Nintendo and/or Sony is going to have to print the title (My understanding of how it still works, right?).  Nintendo and Sony are going to have to put their names on the title.  In some of your worlds, EBGameStop, Wal*Mart, etc would be "forced" to carry the title.  So, basically, you're saying that these companies (and those who work for them) should not have any say in what they partake in... They should not get to enjoy the same freedoms that Take Two does.

If T2/R* want to create the game and release it for PC or create their own console and release it for that and sell it through their own distribution channels, they are perfectly free to do so (in the US, at least).  However, those of you who want to force other companies to participate in the release and distribution of this game...  well, you're just as morally wrong as those who want to force Take Two and Rockstar to not be allowed to release/distribute the game.

Did any of that make the slightest bit of sense?
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...
« Reply #299 on: June 21, 2007, 05:11:32 PM »
Here's the catch, UncleBob.  Nintendo and Sony are Japanese companies.  What logic does it make for them to listen to an United States ratings board?  To what extent does this carry over to?  Will they allow the content in Japan or other Asian countries?  How limiting will this decision be?

Then there's the whole, "We've spent over a year working on this game, and now you tell us we can't sell for the devices we made it for" ordeal.  That's a pretty big economical hit.

For the record, Nintendo/Sony don't have to print the title, and I can remember exactly how several prior lawsuits have gone, but basically, the best path for the game is for Nintendo/Sony to approve it for printing on their title.  Unlicensed games have been published before, TENGEN is one company that did so, and there was one publisher that got in some big trouble for it with the Genesis, though their problem was that when they made a game, it started the system with the 'Produced under license by Sega' or whatever that message was. Sega won that one, but mostly because it was possible to create a title that didn't feign Sega acclaim, and Sega provided proof of that on a furnished Genesis there.

What is difficult to tell about unlicensed games is that they don't typically happen until some time after the console is profitable.  Though, the earliest case I can think of is actually Ms. Pac-Man, where Namco and the creators of Ms. Pac-Man settled out of court because Ms. Pac-Man was a great game, and once Namco figured that out, they didn't want to jeopardize losing it.  However, this case might not have set much precedent in the console realm, as arcade units weren't designed to have interchangeable content created by people other than the unit's maker, whereas consoles are.

Anyways, I'll delve a little deeper and look up some research after I go get some food...