Author Topic: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense  (Read 11132 times)

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« on: February 01, 2007, 09:05:48 PM »
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February 1, 2007 - Nvidia, one of the world's leading producers of graphics processing technology, seems to differ in opinion from Nintendo president Satoru Iwata on the subject of game visuals. In a recent interview with Next-Gen business, VP of content Roy Taylor voiced his opinion on the matter of gaming graphics and presentation.

"They're talking nonsense," he said of Nintendo assertion that videogame graphics have reached a saturation point. "It's ridiculous sot say that graphics don't matter. That's like saying 'The quality of my TV screen doesn't matter.' Oh really? So then in that case, you can go watch 24 in black-and-white on a seven-inch screen. It's nonsense to say graphics don't matter. I think we can do a lot better, but I think we'd like to see graphics encompassing the gameplay."

During the interview Taylor does state that gameplay can oftentimes play second fiddle to a game's visuals but reiterates that graphics will bring more emotion into software, stating that gamers seldom become as emotionally invested in characters from a videogame as they do in movies.


What is most ridiculous about this statement is that I found characters from Kingdom Hearts, Zelda etc etc, to be engaging (yes that word) and emotionally fulfilling. It really seems Nvidia is bitter about the money they are losing on PS3 and are trying to degrade Nintendo who is using a competitor. Not only that but he is using the same old straw man argument by giving the worse possible comparison such as watching a black and white 7 inch screen. I agree to an extent that graphics do matter, but above all else character and artistic design is what conveys emotion more so than pretty visuals, luckily the Wii can use alittle of both. Really though I remember being heartbroken at the end of Super Metroid, so it isn't the graphics that create emotions but design!
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Offline IceCold

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 09:08:06 PM »
He does work for a graphics card company.. and one who worked for the PS3 at that. Not completely unexpected. I agree with you completely though, VG.. or rather GP?
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 09:08:55 PM »
ATI FTW

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 09:13:32 PM »
I dunno, but honestly I've found the more realistic visuals are the less I am caring about the characters. It is like developers focus all their energies into creating these realistic acting people but forget what truly makes you "feel" for the character. Personally I have yet to play a next-generation game (mainly Xbox 360 and PC) that I've felt for the characters except for my poor pinatas in Viva Pinata after they get eaten .
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Offline King of Twitch

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 09:26:59 PM »
They pick two systems in a row to provide chips for, only to find out they both would sell at huge losses yet barely managed to hobble out of the starting gate; then suddenly, a backwards, last-place competitor shows up and sells millions in the first couple of months using marginally improved technology. I can imagine he's frustrated. He just needs to let it out. Let it out man, let it out.  
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Offline oohhboy

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 10:06:24 PM »
He doesn't get it. Graphics is a dead end race. We will get to photorealism. It is a matter of when and how we get there. The cost for the next improvement is getting higher and higher with proportionaly smaller returns. Nintendo went and bypassed all that by exploring and exploiting a relatively new field where the cost for the next big thing is so much lower. No wonder he is pissed. He knows one day his company won't matter anymore, the time where no one can tell a budget card from a premium.
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Offline Nephilim

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 10:27:13 PM »
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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
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Offline denjet78

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2007, 11:56:31 PM »
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Originally posted by: oohhboy
He doesn't get it. Graphics is a dead end race. We will get to photorealism. It is a matter of when and how we get there. The cost for the next improvement is getting higher and higher with proportionaly smaller returns. Nintendo went and bypassed all that by exploring and exploiting a relatively new field where the cost for the next big thing is so much lower. No wonder he is pissed. He knows one day his company won't matter anymore, the time where no one can tell a budget card from a premium.


You basically hit the nail on the head. At some point in the future, the near future, graphics will become obsolete simply because everything will look and act exactly as they do in the real world. Once that bridge is passed, there's nowhere else to go.

But what I think he's most upset about is that Nintendo is proving that you don't need to blow several hundred dollars on a high end card just to play video games. Basically, if people are willing to buy such an underpowered system and still enjoy it throughly then what really is the point for all of these technological upgrades?

If Nintendo's ideas really catch on these companies are going to be in a world of hurt because people aren't going to be willing to spend what's required to be on the bleeding edge every time they release some new hardware.

Offline BlkPaladin

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 12:16:30 AM »
I like his emotional apeel in the interview that is really stupid. (Watch 24 on a B&W TV)

Of course NVidia is going to say something like this they make a living off of selling graphic cards, and is Sony's partner. Simular to CPU power there is really a limit to how much power you can pack in a graphics card and they are going to hit a point where a new iteration of a card just means more or different RAM with a "better" utilization of the memory bandwidth and nothing supstancial in what it does.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 01:06:37 AM »
"It's ridiculous sot say that graphics don't matter. That's like saying 'The quality of my TV screen doesn't matter.' Oh really? So then in that case, you can go watch 24 in black-and-white on a seven-inch screen. It's nonsense to say graphics don't matter. I think we can do a lot better, but I think we'd like to see graphics encompassing the gameplay."

He sounds like he's a Slashdot user, strawman arguments are popular there. Strawman means taking an oppinion, pushing it up in a way that it becomes obviously idiotic and then refuting it. Bravo, you've just debunked some silly argument but you haven't done anything about the one presented by your opponent.

If you apply common sense it should be clear that Iwata wasn't talking about the difference between the Atari 2600 and the PS3, he was talking about the now, the current generational leap in graphics. I think he even said that he's referring to only that leap. The returns for increased system power have become so small they aren't worth pursuing. Both the XBox 360 and the PS3 didn't manage to hold the 300$ pricepoint because they had to push so much hardware in there to make the generational jump large enough. If they hadn't tried to go forward with their hardware so much and instead taken what they could get for the 300$ pricepoint the next gen leap may have been too unimpressive for people to care.

Offline Ceric

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2007, 01:34:31 AM »
I like how they stated that Nintendo said they have reached saturation.  Though I do hope that when the Wii 2 comes out we might have reached that platue(sp?) So I don't have to buy a new game console for a long time after that.
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Offline Strell

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 01:50:06 AM »
I love how people misconstrue what Nintendo has said over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again.

At no point in time did Nintendo ever say "graphics do not matter."  Never.  This is the invention, paraphrase, miscontruction, misdirection, and contortion of the Internet at work.  It is no different than any other urban legend or game of telephone.  Everyone adds on their own little twist, or changes a word here or there with what they believe to be a synonym, and it builds up over time.  Purple Monkey Dishwasher.

This is why I'm so tired of hearing it.  

What they did say - and this is all there is to it - is that graphics will hit a ceiling.  

That is ALL.

It is that simple, it is that clear.  There is nothing more or less to it.  They didn't say graphics don't matter.  They didn't even say they have peaked.  They have said that, in looking to the future, graphics will indeed reach a point where they cannot be surpassed, no matter how much technology evolves.  

At some point, we can't bump map the bump maps.  We can't shade the shaders.  We can't add more polygons, we can't make MORE shadows when they aren't there, and the bloom lighting is going to make my eyeballs explode.  Nintendo has simply acknowledged that no matter how great the graphics are now, at some point they will hit the wall, we won't have anywhere to go, and at that point, there's nothing that can be done to improve them.  And they understand that their presence in this industry - which just got secured quite solidly for several more years, if not decades - means that they will most definitely be around when that time comes.

And if that is the case, then what is the rush to get to that limit?  ESPECIALLY for Nintendo, who has been in the business longer than Sony and MS combined, and will surely be there alongside them for a long time.  Nintendo is being smart about it from their own internal business perspective, which is basically saying "we can slow down, because there's no need to race to that finish line immediately."

And why do they think this?  Well, if the PS3 isn't a good enough example, I don't know what is.  Here we have a system with supposedly the most awesome specs ever dreamed of, and it's sitting on the shelves because of the high cost to consumers.  Factor in the cost to Sony - who is losing a nice bundle on each system - and it's pretty easy to see why Nintendo has gone this route.

It's like in an RPG game where you start out and you need money.  And every time you think you have enough, you suddenly find Silver Armor and it costs 4000 gp, and you've only got 7932, which is a LOT for where you are, and you need at least three Silver Armors (because your stupid Black Mage can't wear it), so you suddenly need 12,000 gp.  Yet, a few hours later in the game, gold is totally useless.  You'll be sitting on a stockpile that you'll never be able to deplete.  And at that point, all that "omfg I need money!" moments are gone forever.

We're about halfway through the game, if you want to continue that metaphor.  Hell, we might be 60-70% through.  After Gears of War, what is still needed?  I guess maybe you could have more enemies on the screen, or you could throw out a lot of animated sequences going on in the background.  But in terms of graphics, what do you do after that?  Do you make the draw in distance longer?  Do you have 100s of enemies?  Do you make the lighting better?

I just don't see what it is all these graphics nuts seem to think is missing.  We're going to have the Unreal and Crytek engines running around that can render near photorealistic stuff.  So what's after that?

Nothing.  At some point these companies are going to reach the end of their developmental cycles, and it's going to be nothing more than EA like upgrades every year.  Now the lighting uses better blending in matter.  You don't notice it as a gamer because who the f*ck stands around looking at how light dissipates in water, but I guess it's comforting to know someone thought of it.

Back to Nintendo - they recognize all of this in a very simple way.  1) They will continue to be in the business.  2) They too will someday manufacture a system capable of HD graphics utilizing amazing engines.  3) The race to get there has an end, and in the short term, it requires paying for expensive and experimental hardware.  4) This causes development time to be increased, which drives up costs.  5) All of this is bad for your bottom line, and only serves to cause delays and frustrations to your customers.

This is why Nintendo opted for the Wii's graphical "shortcomings" (in a relative sense compared to the 360 and PS3) - because it has too many potential downfalls to really damage a company.  

And yet despite ALL of that, at NO TIME did Nintendo ever say "graphics don't matter."  NEVER.  They have said HD will have it's time.  They have said they will value gameplay and controller interfaces to a higher degree, and they have said they will focus on the games.  I've noticed that people love to do this - if you don't say A you are saying B, and that's just retarded.  You could MAYBE say Nintendo was downplaying the importance of graphics, but even that is a stretch.  

You can faithfully say "I like chocolate" and not imply you suddenly hate vanilla.  I realize that is a very difficult concept to understand, even for big time graphics man, but that is the case.  It's one of the simplest rules of language, and I'm sorry you aren't smart enough to get it.  And that is the deal here.  That is the only deal here, and that is all the deal will ever be.  I don't even need to go and defend Zelda's graphics, or talk about how the Gamecube was a very powerful system, or any of those other things.  There's no need at all, because it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is little more than a man whining and whining and whining.

This attack needs to stop.  It's the product of stupid fanboys and money hats, with a lot of people saying a lot of bullsh*t they know that they can't back up unless they grasp at some imaginary straws.  Yes, imaginary.  You are making this sh*t up at this point, people.

What I wouldn't give to inject a huge dose of common sense into the gaming industry like it was a mushroom that made you giant.  
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 02:16:06 AM »
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Originally posted by: Ceric
I like how they stated that Nintendo said they have reached saturation.  Though I do hope that when the Wii 2 comes out we might have reached that platue(sp?) So I don't have to buy a new game console for a long time after that.


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Offline Adrock

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 02:17:58 AM »
I recall Satoru Iwata saying something like "specs don't matter" which people construed as the company's stance on graphics.

Wii didn't need HD graphics, but they definitely aimed too low. I've read that the general rule of thumb is that high-def graphics require something like 3 times the processing power. It would've been nice if Nintendo was somewhere near upper crust, non-HD area. Still, I'm a believer in art direction. I don't care how nice the textures look. If the art is sub-par, the game doesn't impress me graphics wise.

Offline Nick DiMola

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 02:20:18 AM »
I totally I agree with you Strell. People love to misconstrue everything Nintendo says.

"You can faithfully say "I like chocolate" and not imply you suddenly hate vanilla."

That quote really sums it up. Just because Nintendo isn't interested in pursuing a higher level of graphics right now doesn't mean they hate graphics and they think they are pointless. You can bet your ass the graphical capabilities of Nintendo's next console will be at least where the 360 and the PS3 are because it will be logical and reasonably inexpensive at that point to incorporate those graphical capabilities. And what will be the difference at that point, in graphical prowess, between the PS4 and the Wii 2? The games will look nearly the same, except Sony will be paying tons of money to push a few more polygons.

Graphics are running into a brick wall, and that wall is coming up soon. There are alot more advances that can be made in animation and physics that will bring realism to videogames. Once we hit photo realism though, at least in the graphics department, there is nowhere else to move from there besides into developing something new we have never seen before. At this point, the only thing pushing the game industry forward is creativity. People learn how to use what they have to work with better and can push the system to it's limits and create some amazing games.
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2007, 02:22:08 AM »
I'm sorry, but gameplay comes first.  no matter how great the graphics are, a crappy, boring game is still a crappy boring game no mater how pretty you make it. Sh.t is still sh.t no matter how you dress it up.
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2007, 02:36:55 AM »
It's funny though, I wonder how we would be addressing this if it was Sony that said graphics have leveled out?

I remember during the GC days one of the biggest arguments made against the PS2 was that the GC had more graphical power. Although, I suppose that could be the reason that us Nintenerds realize that it isn't that important to be the most graphically superior.

Oh and another thing, it's not the fairest comparison but the Twilight Princess on component cables looks on par with some X360 games on composite cables. The graphical leap isn't that great, I look at Zelda and I'm like wow, what more do you really want from your graphics but pretty pictures, and smooth textures?  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2007, 03:11:45 AM »
The graphical leap isn't that great, I look at Zelda and I'm like wow, what more do you really want from your graphics but pretty pictures, and smooth textures?

Less bloom?

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2007, 03:45:36 AM »
No!  Turn the bloom up! UP!!  (okay, maybe a little less)

Yeah, um, you guys have said it all. Wii could have used more power, heck, I would've paid an extra $100 for better graphics, but we're reaching the end of the road here, I don't see a ton of room for improvement anymore.
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Offline JonLeung

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2007, 03:47:13 AM »
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
The graphical leap isn't that great, I look at Zelda and I'm like wow, what more do you really want from your graphics but pretty pictures, and smooth textures?

Less bloom?


More colour?

The City in the Sky was a really ugly dungeon with so much bloom outside and so much grey inside.  Blecch!


Offline MaryJane

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2007, 04:34:54 AM »
was that really the fault of the graphical capabilites or design direction? I thought the Castle in the sky was good because, it was being rampaged by many creatures including one difficult to defeat dragon .

If it was all pretty and wishy washy colorful it wouldn't looked strange IMO. Destruction can be beautiful at times, but not for the Oocoo's
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Offline NeoThunder

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2007, 05:16:32 AM »
I would like to remind people that a PS2 had less superior hardware than a GameCube, yet...for whatever reason, more people bought a PS2.  I think we can all admit that Turok: Evolution looked ok, But it was crap!!! dispite it's "graphics"

We must remember that "Graphics" don't apply to only polygon count.  Graphics just simply means appeal to the common eye.  I think developer's should always focus on game engines, story, and gameplay in general first before they focus on graphics.  Time and time again I get so pissed off when it seems developers didn't play their games first before they released it.  When it comes to Boss battles that are so rediculously hard that it takes 20 trys before you get passed, I want stratigy and puzzle solving like a Zelda TP boss  battle.  I really don't want to hear about any crybaby that says it was "too easy".  It's suppossed to be easy when you figure out how to defeat a boss, not exponetially harder.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2007, 05:42:52 AM »
"Really though I remember being heartbroken at the end of Super Metroid, so it isn't the graphics that create emotions but design!"

Super Metroid has really good 2D graphics though.  A 2D game with comparable graphics released today wouldn't look out of place.

Anyone who says that graphics don't matter is a fool, as is someone who only cares about graphics.  Not only does it not need to be an "either/or" situation but it shouldn't be.  Great game design is a combination of gameplay and presentation.  You use the graphics and the sound to create a setting for the player and then the gameplay is what the player is able to do in that setting.  That's what great games are made of.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2007, 05:53:59 AM »
I do think Nintendop overdid it with the "weak graphics" approach, the Wii doesn't even have shaders. They could at least have made sure the Wii is better than the original XBox in EVERY aspect.

When it comes to Boss battles that are so rediculously hard that it takes 20 trys before you get passed, I want stratigy and puzzle solving like a Zelda TP boss battle.

I don't mind that as long as you can see what you're doing wrong (twenty deaths is an average boss in Bunny Must Die, I think I wasted 50 on some, hell, some normal areas kill you 20 times easily). Even 2-3 deaths can become frustrating if I don't see what I can improve (or it takes a long time to retry). I think bosses should be hard even when you know what to do, bosses like TP's are pushovers when you know what you're doing. They're easy even to me who can barely defeat a stalfos in OOT after ten tries.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE:Nvidia says Nintendo is talking nonsense
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2007, 06:24:36 AM »
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Originally posted by: nitsu niflheim
I'm sorry, but gameplay comes first.  no matter how great the graphics are, a crappy, boring game is still a crappy boring game no mater how pretty you make it. Sh.t is still sh.t no matter how you dress it up.


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