Topic: Do games really even need to be fun?

[Kairon]

I STARTED as an RPGamer.

When I think back to the SNES, god, I had like, a holy trinity of games: FFVI, Secret of Mana, and Earthbound.

God, if there's any game to convince me that Miyamoto's gameplay first and always philosophy is NOT the only way, Earthbound is IT.

... too bad I hate msot RPGs now because of what I perceive as real mediocre writing, boring themes, and WAY TOO MUCH anime cliche influence. /cry

Sometimes i think I'm just too jaded and biased to appreciate anything from the genre. I mean, I enjoyed Super Star Saga and the first Paper Mario.... but not much else although I forced myself to buy SoA and ToS and BK.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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... too bad I hate msot RPGs now because of what I perceive as real mediocre writing, boring themes, and WAY TOO MUCH anime cliche influence. /cry

Have you played FFXII? Definitely some minor problems with its story, but I really think it's Square's first real attempt iat breaking out of that typical jpop, angst coated, anime/rpg cliche. And it's the first game to convince me that, finally, large scale and consistently good voice acting is now possible in a game!

[segagamer12]

pittboi likes to argue, argueing is fun for him.


fun is something subjective everyone has a different view on what is fun and what is not. I have a friend who finds smoking pot fun but I on the other hand think it not fun at all, in fact I cant think of one good reason to smoke pot, yet my friend thinks it is good fun. We differ in opinions. No Big deal.

I can have fun recordinga  song for the first time, incredible fun at that, yet someone else migth think its is stupid or lame or boring. fun is subjective dude and if you think something is fun than for you it is, if someone else doesnt then for them it isnt.

I think Mortal Kombat is fun for me, others think Pikmin is fun, other think GTA is fun, others Halo, so who is right?

I am right in that MK is a fun game and if you dont see it your dumb? Well I like MK, Halo AND Pikmin (to some degree GTA also) but non of those are of the same style, genre, or category. So can Pikmin be fun to someone who likes GTA? Can Mario be fun to someone whos favorite game is a realistic fighitng game? the answer is of coarse yes.  I can have AS MUCH FUN playing Mario as I can MK but its always dfferent. Same with playing FF games or other RPGS. I love anime myself so I can get into a lot of RPGs that others hate, to me watching Project A-ko is fun, same with Wratch of the Ninja, so is reading the Bible, for me.

So yes a game should be fun or at elast provide some kind of entertainment, they are by definiton GAMES after all and the purpose of a GAME is to HAVE FUN.  

[Kairon]

I love to argue too. That's why I value dissenting opinions and would consider this board a worse place off if IanSane wasn't here, or Pittboi, or any of you other guys who disagrees with me!

And dude, Karaoke games... they ARE fun. But then again, I'm Philipino, so maybe Karaoke is just in my blood.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[denjet78]

People, people, people. You're using ENGLISH to try and pinpoint an abstract concept. Never going to happen. Mathematics would be a much better language to do that in but since most of us would never be able to understand it, myself included, I suppose we're stuck with what we do, however imprecise it may be.

And yes games HAVE to be FUN. There has to be something in them that you ENJOY or else you wouldn't be willing to put your time into them in the first place. Hobbies were brought up and then brushed aside for being "comforting" or something else that I don't remember because the argument couldn't stand on its own in a million years. Whether or not a certain someone would consider them to be fun is irrelevant, those that engage in them do receive ENJOYMENT from doing so.

Baveheart was brought up (and not made fun of for some strange reason) as a sad movie that people still ENJOYED. Whether it was for the story, the characters, the atmosphere, even the bloody fighting if you ENJOY any part of it then that is the definition of fun for you. Hell, some people simply ENJOY being sad. That is what's fun for them.

Ian Jr. I am starting more and more to dislike you. I ENJOY arguments... No, scratch that:  I ENJOY discussions as much as the next person, probably more... Actually a lot more. But I loath arguments simply because usually you end up arguing with someone who has zero intention of ever accepting the possibility that they may be wrong. And that, my friend (maybe), is nothing more than an exercise in futility. A closed mind is a closed mind and that is NOT fun.

[Smash_Brother]

It's all subjective.

There are some games which people love which I personally consider torture to play.

As far as the gaming industry is concerned, games need to be salable, nothing more.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
It's all subjective.

There are some games which people love which I personally consider torture to play.

As far as the gaming industry is concerned, games need to be salable, nothing more.

Actually, it isn't all subjective. If no one finds a game fun in any way, then no one will buy it. Someone has to find fun in the game. What is subjective is what they find to be fun.

[Mysticspike]

I, personally, thinking about this topic, say that it's completely rediculous. what do u think games were invented for? loosing? not trying to be put-downish, but i can't find any other reason to be involved with the wonderful world of gaming. well, except for being good at a game and creaming your friends every time. well, even that would qualify as fun in my book... not that i don't care about my friends...... most of them...... just kidding, i'm not that much of a jerk. but, seriously, why do you think games were made? actually, i'm kind of curious about what was going through whoever's mind when they made pong, or whatever the first videogame was. enyone know him personally? no, just kidding again, i'm not that dumb. well, i'm not sure... maybe i am. i don't know, you tell me.

by the way, you have a point, there,  denjet78

[GoldenPhoenix]

Denjet, post of the year.

[Mysticspike]

hey, phoenix, maybe you should change your signature. the wii has been out for almost 3 months. i would suggest: WORSHIP THE WII!!!!!!!

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: mysticspike
what do u think games were invented for?

Actually games, in the broadest terms possible, were invented as a way to pass down knowledge and skills to the next generation. The "fun" part was simply a way to keep them interested until they could actually learn what they needed to learn.

Games today are a completely different beast.

[Mysticspike]

wow! that's crazy! well, not that crazy, but that's iteresting. i didn't know that. how do you know that?

[Mysticspike]

ops, i spelled interesting wrong. it has been an off day. hey, i did get my wii zelda game today through the mail. i still lack a wii, though, because i thought i'd have one by now. it's so annoying. i feel left out. oh, well, i have you guys.

[Mysticspike]

crap, i spelled oops wrong!! what the hell! well, like i said, it has been an off day.

[jasonditz]

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Nintendo, in their quest to make all of their games "fun" may be overlooking a genre that, for the most part, doesn't fit in. And maybe that's why their presence has been sorely lacking these last few gens.

I'll have to strongly disagree with this. If you play today's RPGs for the story, and actually consider them good, then there is nothing I can do to help you. 99.99% of videogame stories are cliché, trite and just poorly written in general. There are few exceptions, Eternal Darkness being one. The worst culprits are the RPGs today. I didn't play Tales of Symphonia for the horrible story, but rather for the gameplay experience. If you want good stories, I'd advise you to look elsewhere. Strell had a wonderful quote a while back about Final Fantasy games that perfectly describes my opinion on them - something to do with pre-pubescent children and artefacts. Wish I could find it.


I actually think Namco does a pretty good job with their RPG stories. They're not masterpieces or anything, but they make a constant effort to present honest-to-god original stories instead of just Dragon Warrior re-hashes.

[IceCold]

You know Spike, there's an "Edit" button to the right of your posts.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
You know Spike, there's an "Edit" button to the right of your posts.

Yeah, but that's just not as much fun.

And mysticspike, if you hang around long enough just listening to people you can pick up a lot of information. Besides, if you look back games have been around since before recorded history but people didn't have the leisure time to actually pursue them until the last century or so. Moderns games are an affectation of our modern society where we seem to have more time than we know what to do with so we look for any little thing to fill it. Not having to spend every minute of every day just trying to survive is such an alien concept that really we have no idea what to do with it.  

[Blue Plant]

Does food really need to taste good?

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: mysticspike
crap, i spelled oops wrong!! what the hell! well, like i said, it has been an off day.

It's ok. You're Wii-deprived. We understand.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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Ian Jr. I am starting more and more to dislike you.

Well, not that I really care how you feel about me, I don't see how it matters here. I didn't post this topic to start an argument. It was an honest question and I wanted to see what would come of a discussion about it. If you're getting frustrated and it's resulting in negative feelings, well then that's your immaturity at work.  

[Hocotate]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
I'll have to strongly disagree with this. If you play today's RPGs for the story, and actually consider them good, then there is nothing I can do to help you. 99.99% of videogame stories are cliché, trite and just poorly written in general.

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Originally posted by: Strell
Um.

Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, and FF6 were fun.

This is why modern RPGs suck. Because they are not fun. They are bags of tired cliches and overused bullsh*t.

I agree completely w/ you guys.

Oh, and this thread fails.... If a game is not fun to you then don't play it. The whole "I enjoy reading books but its not fun" thing is just stupid. Fun doesn't only apply to action or fast paced enjoyment. If something is fun it is enjoyable. Settling down w/ a nice book and relaxing is fun if you are enjoying it.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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Ian Jr. I am starting more and more to dislike you.

Well, not that I really care how you feel about me, I don't see how it matters here. I didn't post this topic to start an argument. It was an honest question and I wanted to see what would come of a discussion about it. If you're getting frustrated and it's resulting in negative feelings, well then that's your immaturity at work.

To be honest, I read the first few sentences of your original post and jumped to conclusions. Your original statement about how Nintendo has made it so games just can't look good any more, that they have to be fun actually turned my stomach to the point where I wasn't willing to read the rest of your post.

Looking back at the rest of it now, I see what you were trying to say and I apologize for my ignorance. I picked up some adversarial feelings toward you in another topic and I applied them here without giving you the benefit of the doubt. However, I do think I made some valid points previously and if you're still interested in have a real conversation I would be more than happy to oblige.

[wandering]

I agree with pittboi that "entertainment" is not necessarily fun. Grave of the Fireflies is a great movie, but it's not a "fun" movie. "Fun" would just, in my opinion, be an inaccurate way to describe it.

With that said, I'm not sure I've ever played a videogame that I would personally consider both good and not fun. In RPGs, you're slaying monsters, and getting an entertaining story with cackling bad guys and what not. Now, there are trade offs. An RPG might be long and tedious - but, in return, beating it is more gratifying. A member of your party might die, and that might be sad - but, in return, defeating the bad guy becomes more satisfying. An RPG might offer a different, perhaps "deeper" kind of fun than Wii Sports (although there are trade-offs there, too. To get good at the game you have to practice, afterall.) But, I still say rpgs are meant to be fun.

Now, say, a game where you play a ghost who walks around observing the rape of Nanking - that, to me, wouldn't be fun. Informative, maybe.  

[KDR_11k]

For Nintendo, it seems that "fun" is bright colors, basic but functional controls, pick up and play appeal, and an overall simplified graphical style.

No, they call that "games for everyone". Fun means you produce endorphines when playing it. If it's no fun you don't want to play it because there are probably things that produce more endorphines and your instinct is to maximize your endorphine output.

Of course, arguing about semantics is pointless so I'll assume you meant "do games really need to be for everyone?" and I think we can agree on a "no" easily. But that would have been too easy so you had to use a vague word that usually refers to a fundamental concept of entertainment and tried to bend it to your purpose, eh?

[Pittbboi]

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Looking back at the rest of it now, I see what you were trying to say and I apologize for my ignorance. I picked up some adversarial feelings toward you in another topic and I applied them here without giving you the benefit of the doubt. However, I do think I made some valid points previously and if you're still interested in have a real conversation I would be more than happy to oblige.

Hey, no harm no foul.

But yeah, after reading the responses I guess if we extend fun and look at it in a purely subjective sense, then anything that doesn't cause death can be considered fun. However, I was more thinking of fun as it relates to gaming today, specifically Nintendo's stance on it. Nintendo definitely has a more specific definition of what fun is in their philosophy, it's how their explaining the Wii. Miyamoto actually has an even more specific idea of "fun" than Nintendo's official stance on it.

Maybe it's a little erroneous to say that RPGs aren't fun, but I still feel that RPGs are an example of of the genre that almost completely exists outside of Nintendo's current definition of fun (except maybe Kingdom Hearts). People may not agree, but I'd like for this to be a discussion, and I'd rather hear about what RPGs mean to them instead of how I'm so wrong and just trying to be a mini Ian.

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No, they call that "games for everyone". Fun means you produce endorphines when playing it. If it's no fun you don't want to play it because there are probably things that produce more endorphines and your instinct is to maximize your endorphine output.

Erm, any number of things that aren't "fun" can stimulate endorphin production--from strenuous physical activities to certain foods. So I don't think endorphin production is an accurate measure of how "fun" something is or whether or not something is fun at all.  

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Of course, arguing about semantics is pointless so I'll assume you meant "do games really need to be for everyone?" and I think we can agree on a "no" easily. But that would have been too easy so you had to use a vague word that usually refers to a fundamental concept of entertainment and tried to bend it to your purpose, eh?

Actually not at all. I used the word fun because, as I said in my first post, "fun" seems to be the buzz word nowadays, and I wanted to see what people thought of that in relation to gaming and the general question I had in my head. Whether or not games need to be for "everyone" or not is a different debate entirely.