Topic: Why not use the Goldeneye control scheme for FPS?

[son of lucas]

All the FPS, including Metroid Prime 3, seem to be using a "box" system in order to turn.  I'm sure that the system can be improved from what we've, but I'm not sure that I really want it to.

I think, in this case, the developers are overthinking the use of the remote.  There's no reason why the pointer needs to serve the dual functions.  It would be much more effective and satisfying if the pointer were confined to simply aming and farm out turning functions to a more traditional method.  It'd be pretty simple to implement too.

The nunchuck analog stick can handle forward and backward movement along with turning functions while the remote's D-Pad can handle strafing and looking up and down.  The B-trigger could be used for shooting.  Developers can use the A- and C-buttons for reloading, action, and weapons selection at their discretion (think I'd prefer C-button for reload and action).  That leaves the Z-trigger plus the accelerometers for any additional controls.

There, we've got an effective and enjoyable control scheme that will let you point at any corner of your screen and shoot like we all imagined when the remote was first unveiled.

[Smash_Brother]

I'd prefer holding the C or Z buttons as a modifier which makes you strafe with the analogue stick instead of turning.

Looking up and down would be another matter, though...

[MorningStar]

The problem I see is that FPS's nowadays have you looking up and down a bit more than Goldeneye did. Mapping strafe AND look up and down to the D-pad I don't think would work out. It may have seemed to work well on the N64 controller, but I think that has a lot to do with two things: 1) Like stated above, the lack of need to look up and down and 2) the C-buttons were mapped out a bit further apart than the D-pad on the remote is.

I don't know about you, but FPS's nowadays on consoles have more of a "free" moving feel to them. They seem to replicate what FPS's on the PC have always had in terms of movement. In Goldeneye I felt more like Bond had a stiff neck and had a difficult time looking either left, right, up, or down. But that's just my opinion.

[Leck]

I think the Wiimote's D-pad is a bit awkwardly positioned to use it for straifing and looking around.  Pressing down is okay, but left and right are hard to press, and pressing up requires you to move your hand position.
I'm sure there is some other way to do better FPS controls, but I'm not sure what they are yet.  Personally I didn't have a problem with Red Steels controls once I got used to them.

[Smoke39]

Like Leck said, the D-pad's not positioned very well for such consistent use.  Besides that, it makes looking around really confusing because it's spread across three different actions.  You got aiming on the screen with the remote, then you have wide horizontal panning on the stick, plus wide vertical panning on the D-pad.  It's a convoluted mess compared to PC-style aiming.

[IceCold]

Hey, reminds me of RAB's "thesis"..

[Rancid Planet]

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Originally posted by: MorningStar
The problem I see is that FPS's nowadays have you looking up and down a bit more than Goldeneye did. Mapping strafe AND look up and down to the D-pad I don't think would work out. It may have seemed to work well on the N64 controller, but I think that has a lot to do with two things: 1) Like stated above, the lack of need to look up and down and 2) the C-buttons were mapped out a bit further apart than the D-pad on the remote is.

I don't know about you, but FPS's nowadays on consoles have more of a "free" moving feel to them. They seem to replicate what FPS's on the PC have always had in terms of movement. In Goldeneye I felt more like Bond had a stiff neck and had a difficult time looking either left, right, up, or down. But that's just my opinion.

This is all true. It's the design of game levels and how that design changes the gameplay of an FPS that prevents the Goldeneye style from becoming the standard in newer games. Not that certain games don't come very close. One of the options (not sure if it's the default one or not) on TimeSplitters 2 felt very close to GE without actually being exactly like it.

[Mario]

Way too complicated. Nunchuck + Remote + Dpad + Shoot + Jump / Duck would often all be needed at once. Plus, it's completely pointless. Red Steel has pretty much nailed it, there's no reason to change. It's the best feeling FPS i've ever played. I can't even go back to Goldeneye anymore.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: Mario
Way too complicated. Nunchuck + Remote + Dpad + Shoot + Jump / Duck would often all be needed at once. Plus, it's completely pointless. Red Steel has pretty much nailed it, there's no reason to change. It's the best feeling FPS i've ever played. I can't even go back to Goldeneye anymore.

I agree this idea is way too complicated, but by no means did Red Steel nail it. Conceptually I can agree with that but in practice, Red Steel didn't control as smoothly as I felt it should. If anyone nailed it, it's Elebits and I'm sure when MP3 comes out that'll really show that perfect aiming is possible with the Wiimote.  

[son of lucas]

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The problem I see is that FPS's nowadays have you looking up and down a bit more than Goldeneye did. Mapping strafe AND look up and down to the D-pad I don't think would work out. It may have seemed to work well on the N64 controller, but I think that has a lot to do with two things: 1) Like stated above, the lack of need to look up and down and 2) the C-buttons were mapped out a bit further apart than the D-pad on the remote is.

I don't know about you, but FPS's nowadays on consoles have more of a "free" moving feel to them. They seem to replicate what FPS's on the PC have always had in terms of movement. In Goldeneye I felt more like Bond had a stiff neck and had a difficult time looking either left, right, up, or down. But that's just my opinion.

plus

I think the Wiimote's D-pad is a bit awkwardly positioned to use it for straifing and looking around.

Well taken.  How about we move the forward and backward function over to the D-pad and switch it with the looking up and down.  Then we can put the trigger on the C-button, reload/action on the Z-button.
 

[UltimatePartyBear]

I think Red Steel's biggest problem, FPS control wise, is turning rate.  If an enemy got right next to you, it was nearly impossible to kill him.  Cutting him down with the sword only worked if you very carefully positioned the cursor, and if you failed at that you'd be stuck reloading while he killed you.  There are several ways that could have been improved.  If the attack wasn't context sensitive, but used a different motion than reloading, kind of like the grenades, it would have been easier to pull off, especially on a moving target.  If there were some way to lock on, Zelda style, for the melee attack, then facing the enemy would have been easier.  For a more typical FPS, the best option would be a quick turning mode.  In Red Steel, holding A basically gave you a slow turning mode to give you more precise control of your aim.  Some button or gesture to switch to a fast turning mode at the expense of careful aim would have made you much more mobile.  Alternatively, gestures to turn 90 degrees at a time could work in most cases.

I haven't played Far Cry or CoD3 on Wii yet, but I think really good shooter controls would use a modified Red Steel layout.  Drop the lock-on.  Holding A and moving the remote forward is redundant.  Simply moving the remote forward should be good enough to activate "aiming mode."  Holding A would instead shrink the aiming box and increase your turning rate drastically.  Furthermore, with A held, a sudden jerk to the left or right would cause an immediate quarter turn, and a sudden jerk backwards would cause a 180.  Take out the context sensitivity of shaking the Nunchuk.  Instead, moving it forward pushes things, like buttons, doors, tables, and even enemies.  Moving it to the side, like you're shoving a clip into the remote, reloads your weapon.  Swinging it up makes you attack.  Beyond that, I don't have a problem with Red Steel's controls.

[IceCold]

What about Monkey Wars?

[Ian Sane]

I think the problem with console first person shooters is that they make them too complex and thus require more complex controls.  I hear a lot of people talk about how they wish they could play Goldeneye or Doom with mouselook.  Why?  There's no point.  Those games were designed in such a way that that sort of aiming control wasn't required and thus there's no real reason to implement it.  Aiming always seems to be the issue with console FPS games but the level of aiming required is dictated by the design of the game itself.  Just like how Zelda is designed in such a way that it doesn't need a jump button a good FPS can be made in such a way that it doesn't need pixel perfect aiming.

I think the biggest problem is that consoles FPS games are being designed as if they were a PC game with mouse and keyboard controls and then get shoehorned into a controller.  When making a console game design the game for the controller instead of trying to fit the controller to the game.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
What about Monkey Wars?

IceCold wins this thread.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think the problem with console first person shooters is that they make them too complex and thus require more complex controls.  I hear a lot of people talk about how they wish they could play Goldeneye or Doom with mouselook.  Why?  There's no point.  Those games were designed in such a way that that sort of aiming control wasn't required and thus there's no real reason to implement it.  Aiming always seems to be the issue with console FPS games but the level of aiming required is dictated by the design of the game itself.  Just like how Zelda is designed in such a way that it doesn't need a jump button a good FPS can be made in such a way that it doesn't need pixel perfect aiming.

I think the biggest problem is that consoles FPS games are being designed as if they were a PC game with mouse and keyboard controls and then get shoehorned into a controller.  When making a console game design the game for the controller instead of trying to fit the controller to the game.

You are right on Ian, personally I can't stand the majority of console FPS games because of the "mouse" setup put into analog control. Goldeneye and PD, IMO are examples to go by when it comes to FPS on a console (unless you are talking about the Wii), they should be designed around what works best with the control method. Gaming controls should be intuitive and work well with the enviroment around them without it feeling like a chore, which sadly, is what most console FPS feel like even if you get "used" to them since you still feel a bit handicapped.

[Mario]

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I think Red Steel's biggest problem, FPS control wise, is turning rate. If an enemy got right next to you, it was nearly impossible to kill him.

I agree but the game was designed so you try and avoid that. You can't really run into a room guns blazing in Red Steel, you'll die. It's about getting them before they get you, and working your way around the environment well.

Monkey Wars is a lot smoother than Red Steel but the aiming isn't as precise, since it doesn't need to be, you're shooting at giant monkeys in balls.