Author Topic: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...  (Read 18038 times)

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Offline Smoke39

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RE: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2006, 05:49:33 PM »
IW wasn't a bad game, but it was sooooo disapointing compared to the original. ):
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2006, 02:16:33 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: hudsonhawk
Quote

Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
And the comment that a cool imaginative world makes a great story is not true.  Here is an example:  Lord of the Rings.  That book and movie has one of the most imaginative and wonderful worlds in literature, but the story is not as strong or as good as people make it out.


Crafting a cool imaginative world is part of a very important part of telling a story.  It can tell your story for you implicitly.  Look at the crumbling ruins of Metroid Prime or Gears of War - there's no need to get caught up in exhaustively explaining the history of what happened there, the image tells the story by itself.

It sounds like what you're complaining about is plot.  LotR has a great, elaborate story but the books don't have a very interesting plot; the story isn't told in an interesting way.

Worlds don't make a great story but they're a huge part of telling one.



Thanks for explaining what I meant so much better.  Their is a difference between plot and story.  

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2006, 02:28:11 AM »
I think it is pretty sad when the most innovative feature of the Halo series is rechargeable health, which I have to agree is more of a mask for poor level and enemy design. Halo is still 99% generic doing stuff that had already been outdated by PC games of the time. In regards to the Game Trailers, I've always had problems with trailers that show CGI rendered scenes instead of gameplay footage.
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Offline Sir_Stabbalot

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2006, 02:43:34 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: VGrevolution
I think it is pretty sad when the most innovative feature of the Halo series is rechargeable health, which I have to agree is more of a mask for poor level and enemy design. Halo is still 99% generic doing stuff that had already been outdated by PC games of the time. In regards to the Game Trailers, I've always had problems with trailers that show CGI rendered scenes instead of gameplay footage.


The main reason Halo is doing so well isn't innovation, it's the most accessible multiplayer FPS on the consoles. If innovation = sales, Sony would be dead already.

Anyway, The commercials were nothing special. I don't see what the big deal is. Games trying to look serious tend to have serious-looking commercials.
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Offline SixthAngel

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2006, 04:42:12 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Amodaus1
Starsiege: Tribes
Also i wouldn't go and say halo pioneered different but equally useful weapons. Halo 1 = pistol all day everyday. If your good at the game YOU WILL know that fact (i did play alot of halo 1, and played in tornaments, so i'll be happy to show you my pistoling).

Its called a flaw in a rushed game.  The weapon was never  meant to be overpowered but the first game was pushed out the door quickly.  For some reason stupid fans find this unbalance to be a good part of the game instead of the problem it really is and have pushed Bungie to make the br a starting weapon in Halo 2.  The pistol was never the overpowering weapon in Halo 2.  It has always been the battlerifle even when it first came out.  They tried to fix the pistol problems with the br but there is still work to do.

Rechargable life is not a mask for bad design.  The levels are based around the fact that getting to cover will recharge your health.  The rechargable health allows for larger battles with more accurate enemies because it is possible to be shot more.  The health allows the player to take brief risks without being punished too much and it also keeps the player from tanking through enemies.  The increasing difficulties also make the game very enjoyable for replay.  I play very very few games more then once but the higher difficulty settings made me play through this game multiple times.  Add in a friend for co-op and it gets even more fun.  Single player co-op is another advantage this game has over many others.  I don't know why companies stopped doing co-op games when they entered 3d but it is time they brought it back.

I think it is funny how everyone here points the metareview sites when someone gives Zelda a bad score and yet ignores it when a game like this comes around where they are the minority that disagrees.  Some of you have to be able to admit that being a Nintendo fan clouds your judgement a bit, because it does, or at least admit that perhaps this type of game isn't your cup of tea.

Offline Smoke39

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RE: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2006, 06:23:25 AM »
You're right.  Boring FPSs aren't my cup of tea.  I prefer interesting ones.
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Offline mantidor

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2006, 07:04:31 AM »
about Halo, what pro said in my sig says it all. I really don't understand why the game is hold in such high regard, for someone like me who grow up with doom, quake and the heretic/hexen saga I really don't see how vehicles suddenly make a game the best in its genre.

And I couldn't believe that the commercial of GoW was using the mad world song when I searched for it in youtube, I thought it was some sort of music fan video, specially because I've seen that song used in many anime music videos made by fans, it really doesn't fit at all with what I thought about the game.

I don't mind serious commercials but only if they make sense and fit the game, in that point of view OoT and MM commercials were perfect, these commercials of these two games really don't make much sense, game-wise.

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Offline Amodaus1

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2006, 07:58:33 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Quote

Originally posted by: Amodaus1
Starsiege: Tribes
Also i wouldn't go and say halo pioneered different but equally useful weapons. Halo 1 = pistol all day everyday. If your good at the game YOU WILL know that fact (i did play alot of halo 1, and played in tornaments, so i'll be happy to show you my pistoling).

Its called a flaw in a rushed game.  The weapon was never  meant to be overpowered but the first game was pushed out the door quickly.  For some reason stupid fans find this unbalance to be a good part of the game instead of the problem it really is and have pushed Bungie to make the br a starting weapon in Halo 2.  The pistol was never the overpowering weapon in Halo 2.  It has always been the battlerifle even when it first came out.  They tried to fix the pistol problems with the br but there is still work to do.

Rechargable life is not a mask for bad design.  The levels are based around the fact that getting to cover will recharge your health.  The rechargable health allows for larger battles with more accurate enemies because it is possible to be shot more.  The health allows the player to take brief risks without being punished too much and it also keeps the player from tanking through enemies.  The increasing difficulties also make the game very enjoyable for replay.  I play very very few games more then once but the higher difficulty settings made me play through this game multiple times.  Add in a friend for co-op and it gets even more fun.  Single player co-op is another advantage this game has over many others.  I don't know why companies stopped doing co-op games when they entered 3d but it is time they brought it back.

I think it is funny how everyone here points the metareview sites when someone gives Zelda a bad score and yet ignores it when a game like this comes around where they are the minority that disagrees.  Some of you have to be able to admit that being a Nintendo fan clouds your judgement a bit, because it does, or at least admit that perhaps this type of game isn't your cup of tea.




To put it simply, WOW. I LOLed so hard when i read the word battle rifle, in the same context of overpowered.

I'm going to take it that your not a hard core tournement player. I'm going to take it that your not in a clan. I'm going to take it that you never traveled to different campuses to participate in different college tournaments for the game. But as someone who has... please, when you state something make sure you know what your talking about. The battle rifle is not broken, it is not overpowered, what it is is barely used.

Dual wielding (pre-patch, i never played 1.1 as i walked away from the game forever after 5 months of play) is superior in every way.

WOW, if you didn't know the plasma pistol and magnum or SMG magnum comos were the strongest in the game, then i guess you don't play competitively enough. And if you can't shotty sniper either, then that may explain your use of the inferior battle rifle, but whatever.


Halo 1 had rechargeable shields by the way, it still had the same old grab the health kit system for gaining health back (you still had a health bar in that game) Which served a greater purpose, it made a difference between the plasma weapons and the human weapons (at least in single player, in multiplayer pistols rules all)

Rechargable health DOES NOT allow for larger battles, it is quite the opposite, as you are force to track down and finish off your opponent, which is not hard due to the UBER slow move speed, something i was drastically hoping that they fixed.

Increasing difficulty is nothing new. HEY lets had more health and dmg to the enemies... Wow, not lets add more enemeies, or lets improve the AI? More dmg and health does not = more difficulty it ='s more repetaiveness

And for crying out loud PD had co-op, so did other games.

Read this it'll educate you on how to expliot halo
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=2&cId=3143147

It doesn't mention the shoty sniper which can only be fixed by reciol but then again i doubt the author was a pro anyway. It also doesn't mention how they removed the angle from throwing stickies so its a straight throw now, which made it much easier to tag people.

And if you think halo 1 was rushed, why aren;t you, with THE REST OF US, flaming pissed at how RUSHED halo 2 was. Are you totally out of the loop? Everyone knows they rushed halo 2 (coined Halo 1.5 on-line)
They couldn't even get hit boxes right ---> http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/action/halo2/video_player.html?id=cHMylzCr5bwKujM  

I'm not here to put down your like for the game. You can like it, i love halo 1, i was destroyed by halo 2 being non-progressive and even more of a MAINSTREAM SHOOTER (requiring less skill). And i don't know if it pioneered health regain, but untill someone tells me otherwise, i'll agree with you there. However, you were dead wrong saying it introduced vehicles, and it most certainly did not start the co-op trend. And plz, the battle rifle in 1.00 was not overpowered, the magnum / plasma pistol and sniper rifle still reigned supreme (and whoring the rocket launcher while in a tank/banshee/or ghost that pwns the noobs so hard it gets stale in 10 minutes, but raises your rank so high and gets your clan more status on live).

Offline IceCold

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RE: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2006, 09:50:19 AM »
Quote

I can see why someone might not have liked it, but I think that your patronizing vitriol is unmerited.
And I think that your superfluous verbiage is unmerited  
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Offline Amodaus1

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2006, 10:29:00 AM »
damn, superflurous. I don't even know what that means, the only flora i know is the bacteria.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2006, 12:30:19 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Quote

Originally posted by: Amodaus1
I think it is funny how everyone here points the metareview sites when someone gives Zelda a bad score and yet ignores it when a game like this comes around where they are the minority that disagrees.  Some of you have to be able to admit that being a Nintendo fan clouds your judgement a bit, because it does, or at least admit that perhaps this type of game isn't your cup of tea.


Haha, well like was stated earlier uninspired toned down FPSs are not my cup of tea to be sure. I'm sorry though but the "Majority" liking a game doesn't mean anything, especially since you could argue with Halo that the people who really love Halo and praise it are closed off to PC FPS games which are far superior in every way. The Halo games have a forumulaic story mode (shoot lots of bad guys), and a multiplayer mode that is quite inferior to the quality FPS games on the PC. Zelda TP has more innovation and uniqueness in its little finger than Halo will ever have, and it is quite ridiculous that anyone would rank them on a similar level when it comes to polish, game design, and innovation.  
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Offline Sir_Stabbalot

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2006, 03:03:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Quote

Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Quote

Originally posted by: Amodaus1
I think it is funny how everyone here points the metareview sites when someone gives Zelda a bad score and yet ignores it when a game like this comes around where they are the minority that disagrees.  Some of you have to be able to admit that being a Nintendo fan clouds your judgement a bit, because it does, or at least admit that perhaps this type of game isn't your cup of tea.


Haha, well like was stated earlier uninspired toned down FPSs are not my cup of tea to be sure. I'm sorry though but the "Majority" liking a game doesn't mean anything, especially since you could argue with Halo that the people who really love Halo and praise it are closed off to PC FPS games which are far superior in every way. The Halo games have a forumulaic story mode (shoot lots of bad guys), and a multiplayer mode that is quite inferior to the quality FPS games on the PC. Zelda TP has more innovation and uniqueness in its little finger than Halo will ever have, and it is quite ridiculous that anyone would rank them on a similar level when it comes to polish, game design, and innovation.


While I agree that PC shooters tend to be better, Halo is a lot easier to jump into, and less technical people find consoles easier to use, and you can get more of your buddies on. There's nothing like getting 8 guys together on Lockout for a King of the Hill with only Plasma Pistols and no shields.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2006, 04:15:43 PM »
I refuse to give Halo any credit, it is in my opinion one of the biggest causes in the decline of gaming quality and innovation in the gaming industry for the "hip" gamer.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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RE: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2006, 05:29:34 PM »
I could talk all day on why Halo is a giant piece of crap, but I'll avoid doing so. I hate Halo with every ounce of my being. Never have I played a game so mediocre and so BORING in my life. It is the common man's FPS, simple. They took the seemless level design of Half Life and took a $hit all over it. Rechargeable life is just a cop out for great level design as stated earlier. Half Life had health pick ups, and they were always put in well positioned spots. Had Half Life used rechargeable life, I doubt the game would've been nearly as good as it was.

As far as the topic goes, I hate these serious game trailers. Please show off the actual gameplay. There are ways of doing this that don't look cheesy and still can evoke emotion and interest. Dubbing a Gears of War trailer with Mad World isn't deep, it's retarded.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2006, 06:23:18 PM »
Ouch Mr. Jack that is alot harsher than I was with the game lol. But I definately agree, I don't think it has anything to do with being a Nintendo fan or not, because I play all systems. It is pretty sad when it seems Goldeneye has been level design in the single player than Halo 1 or 2 could ever dream of. Halo's single player is about as generic as you can get, basically boiling down to shooting lots of bad guys and ducking out of the way to recharge your health.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2006, 08:34:58 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Ouch Mr. Jack that is alot harsher than I was with the game lol. But I definately agree, I don't think it has anything to do with being a Nintendo fan or not, because I play all systems. It is pretty sad when it seems Goldeneye has been level design in the single player than Halo 1 or 2 could ever dream of. Halo's single player is about as generic as you can get, basically boiling down to shooting lots of bad guys and ducking out of the way to recharge your health.


I totally agree here. I maybe a Nintendo fan, but I own and play pretty much every console (ever made). I have played more FPSs than I can count and I just can't stand Halo. I think it is the Halo fanboys and the press that spaz over it that drive me crazy and cause a deeper hatred for the game than necessary. The game just isn't that good. It's not the worst either, it is just really overrated. There is no style, no art direction and it is bland as hell. Nowadays there is no excuse for poor artistic direction in a supposed A++ game.

As you can see talking about Halo gets me way too worked up. I think I'll stop now and try and restrain from wrecking on the game more. If you like the game, great, just don't try and convince me it is god's gift to man, because you have no case.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2006, 08:37:38 PM »
I really don't believe that Halo owes its success to anything more than being the simple man's FPS.

... But then again, that's VERY elitist/hardcore gamer-esque of us to say now, isn't it?

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2006, 09:19:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
I really don't believe that Halo owes its success to anything more than being the simple man's FPS.

... But then again, that's VERY elitist/hardcore gamer-esque of us to say now, isn't it?

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Well I think Halo's popularity is because of a few things:

1. It got hyped to heck before it came out
2. An image was set in gamers minds that it was the "cool" thing to play
3. The game is solid, maybe not that good but solid even if it has a generic story mode, the multiplayer can be fun
4. Console FPSs have been pretty sad to say the least except for a few. So Halo is more like a king in the midst of a dung heap
5. Microsoft has spent and is spending tons of money to push it!
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Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2006, 01:26:51 AM »
True reason Halo is played so much...most haven't even tried nor will they give TimeSplitters the tiem of day. This is fact.


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Offline Amodaus1

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2006, 02:50:34 AM »
I've been saying it, and i stand by it. Halo is king becuase it appeals to the masses. And all games that apeal to a mass, generally, are dumbed down.

I was hoping for alot from halo 2, i mean in interviews bungie said ALL this great stuff you could do, like hang on ledges and shoot people, or shoot from coners without leaving cover, and the infamous COMBOS with melee.... what did they deliver, nothing. Thus me exiting the game, i shall never return.

There is alot better then halo, if you don't agree then you are a fanboy, or you are not that good at FPS's. The latter is forgivable. But seriously, PD must have been the last good console shooter that had straight up FPS multiplayer.  

Offline hudsonhawk

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2006, 03:05:40 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
... But then again, that's VERY elitist/hardcore gamer-esque of us to say now, isn't it?


Amen to that.

I can understand why people might not like Halo - whatever, not every game is for everyone - but I've never understood why the people who don't like it are so hauty and patronizing to those who do like it.  Calling it the simple man's FPS, insisting that the people who like it are just ignorant or are suckers for the hype, blaming the media for its success - it's a bunch of elitist garbage.  

That people say things like this with a straight face:

Quote

I refuse to give Halo any credit, it is in my opinion one of the biggest causes in the decline of gaming quality and innovation in the gaming industry for the "hip" gamer.


Halo is causing the decline of gaming now!?  Because dumb gamers who don't like the same games you do are buying it?  Christ man, get over it.  If someone liking a game you don't fills you with this much anger you have issues that aren't going to be resolved in this thread.

Me? I like Halo.  And before you accuse me of having bad taste or being an ignorant gamers or whatever, know that I've been playing first person games since Tunnel Runner on the Atari 2600.  I've played every single important FPS of the last 15 years.

As for whether it was innovative or not, I find that discussion pretty irrelevant.  It does innovate in a lot of key ways (virtual couches and a quickmatch playlist system that works and stays interesting) but I don't really think that's an important debate.  I really think that the importance of innovation has become a little overstated.  Yes, I love a unique and innovative game.  But sometimes I like a solid entry into a genre that works within the rules of that genre and does everything right.

Frankly I think a lot of gamers talk out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to innovation.  They'll criticise games they don't like for their lack of innovation but then turn around and go back to playing the Castlevania 2d games or Mario Kart.  And why not?  They're both great, great games that have a solid design and perfect execution.  They're so fun we don't mind that their design hasn't changed in 10 years.

Innovation isn't a yardstick of quality, it's just something that can set a game apart from it's peers.  I'm not so jaded and bored with gaming that I think every game has to be something completely new to me.  

Offline Amodaus1

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2006, 03:26:51 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: hudsonhawk
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
... But then again, that's VERY elitist/hardcore gamer-esque of us to say now, isn't it?


Amen to that.

I can understand why people might not like Halo - whatever, not every game is for everyone - but I've never understood why the people who don't like it are so hauty and patronizing to those who do like it.  Calling it the simple man's FPS, insisting that the people who like it are just ignorant or are suckers for the hype, blaming the media for its success - it's a bunch of elitist garbage.  

That people say things like this with a straight face:

Quote

I refuse to give Halo any credit, it is in my opinion one of the biggest causes in the decline of gaming quality and innovation in the gaming industry for the "hip" gamer.


Halo is causing the decline of gaming now!?  Because dumb gamers who don't like the same games you do are buying it?  Christ man, get over it.  If someone liking a game you don't fills you with this much anger you have issues that aren't going to be resolved in this thread.

Me? I like Halo.  And before you accuse me of having bad taste or being an ignorant gamers or whatever, know that I've been playing first person games since Tunnel Runner on the Atari 2600.  I've played every single important FPS of the last 15 years.

As for whether it was innovative or not, I find that discussion pretty irrelevant.  It does innovate in a lot of key ways (virtual couches and a quickmatch playlist system that works and stays interesting) but I don't really think that's an important debate.  I really think that the importance of innovation has become a little overstated.  Yes, I love a unique and innovative game.  But sometimes I like a solid entry into a genre that works within the rules of that genre and does everything right.

Frankly I think a lot of gamers talk out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to innovation.  They'll criticise games they don't like for their lack of innovation but then turn around and go back to playing the Castlevania 2d games or Mario Kart.  And why not?  They're both great, great games that have a solid design and perfect execution.  They're so fun we don't mind that their design hasn't changed in 10 years.

Innovation isn't a yardstick of quality, it's just something that can set a game apart from it's peers.  I'm not so jaded and bored with gaming that I think every game has to be something completely new to me.



My gripe with the game is that its dumbed down for mass apeal. As the technical and competitive aspects of the game boil down to two things, 1) do you have a pistol 2) do you have a sniper rifle or possiblly 3) do you have the rocket luancher and are you on a ghost


You like it, thats fine. I fell like a damn parrot, but halo is not very deep for an FPS, its highly dumbed down, and competitve play is all about just 2 guns, mostly just 1 (pistols be one magnum the other plasma while dual wielding) This is why i do not like it. That and the run speed, which does not exsist, solidifies its casual gamer appeal.  

You may have played the first FPS at the dawn of time, but that doesn't mean your good at them, nor does it mean you play competitively. So your love for it is different then my hate. My hate spawns from a severe lacking in the thought of balance, in the thought of technicality, and the placement of weapons rather then the starting off of weapons. MANY MANY MANY FPS's have had better blanace, levels, technical abilities (secondary gun abilities people?) and over all though (dur, one anti-vehcile weapon on a level = whoring like mad on a vehcile while you carry that weapon, and plz don't say you can hi-jack, because no one with half a brain gets near the target on a vehicle, you slow them down with ghost plasm and kill, its slower then .8 seconds but 2.4 seconds is still good for a kill)

Offline hudsonhawk

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RE: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2006, 04:06:52 AM »
So to paraphrase, you're saying that since I like Halo I must suck at gaming.

Way to both miss and prove my point at the same time.

Offline Nick DiMola

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RE: These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2006, 04:56:34 AM »
Crazy fanboys cause the hatred. Fanboys who play Halo and nothing else. These are the people who try and convince you it's the greatest game ever when they have never played another game in their life. I don't hate it because it isn't innovative, I hate it because it is bland and boring. Solid entries and innovative games can co-exist in the land of great games.

The first Halo was unbalanced weapon wise, and as such, I can not consider it a solid game (Sniper Pistol anyone?). Halo 2 dumbed down the regenerating health even more than the first which allowed people to run away in the middle of a fire fight and comeback as if nothing happened ... not cool. Halo 2 did bring HUGE innovation to the online gaming scene in their way of handling matchmaking and getting into a game quickly, I can't talk crap on this fact because they did do a great job. Same with the vehicles, they have always been fantastic and the only part of the game I truly enjoy. Halo works for some people, but not for me. It is too forgiving. It puts people on the same plane while giving an advantage to people who are familiar with the levels. Being good at an FPS should not be dependent on whether or not you know the level, it should depend on whether or not you are good at any FPS. Like I said this could work for you, but it doesn't work for me.

When I call it the common man's FPS I say it for a reason, and not to be an elitist. It is, and it was meant to be what it is. This isn't inherently a bad thing, as Goldeneye was also a common mans FPS. I liked what Goldeneye brought to gaming more than what Halo brought. Halo is slow and the strategy encourages being a coward, while Goldeneye was alwasy fast paced and encouraged face to face firefights. Anyway, this thread is a waste, talking about Halo with Nintendo fans always brings out the worst in people.  
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Offline Amodaus1

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RE:These new Super-Serious Game Trailers...
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2006, 06:19:07 AM »
agreed. But i liked halo 1  

hudsonhawk: I hate halo for reasons of competitiveness, like i said, your like for the game is different from my HATE for the game. You like the game design and think its fun. I think its unbalanced and has many flaws in multiplayer which ruins the fun for me. We're talking about different things in our posts, thats why i didn't bother addressing all of your points, because i don't think its nessesary and i agree with you on other points. As for me patronizing you by saying its a dumbed donw fps, i guess i proved your point, but thats simply how i feel and continue to feel about the game.