Author Topic: It's all a matter of time....  (Read 7351 times)

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Offline Requiem

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It's all a matter of time....
« on: November 19, 2006, 09:10:11 PM »
Its only a matter of time before a new game revolutionizes FPS's and shows developers how to make the damn thing like Mario 64's effect on platformers. Though I have never played any of the Wii FPS's (Red Steel, Call of Duty 3, FarCry), it seems like they got alot of things right and alot of things wrong. Basically, all Nintendo has to do with MP3 is fix what those games got wrong and instead get everything right.

But how?

Should they use a big-bounding box like Red Steel? Should they make a small one like Call of Duty? Should they just make it like a PC FPS and have pixel perfect accuracy?

I recall reading an article (I'm not sure where it came from) that explained how using a tall yet very skinny rectangle as a bounding box would improve turning while keeping the versetility of aiming above and below the center of the screen. This is brilliant, yet will not result in the tightest controls. You see, the single biggest issue so far has arguably been turning. No matter how skinny the rectangle, it's going to feel disorienting having a barrier that you cannot see, and eventually you will notice yourself going past your target to simply center your target. That's why I suggest something like this instead.



Besides having a very small zone within the middle (to counter-act shakiness), turning starts immediately if you point left or right. Naturally, the farther you point to either side the faster you spin. This will make turning a breeze, yet retain the strengths of pointing.

Now let's say you are following a player moving from the left of the screen to the right. Since turning doesn't require you to go through a bounding box, you can track their movements at a greater precision than ever before. Also, since the bounding box goes up at an upwards angle, this gives you a triangle of slowly rotating verticle movement. This allows you to precisely move your aim up to their head without ever changing how fast your aim is spinning horizontally.



Now that is great and all, but you must admit that Red Steel's control scheme looks very effecient when it comes to aiming at things that are on-screen. The ability to quickly point at multiple targets while not messing with the camera seems to be more immersive as well as more effecient. And the easier it is to aim at something, the harder, more challenging, and ultimately more fun you can make the game.

So what to do now?

Comprimise. Why not use both a skinny and big bounding box for when appropriate? When running around normally, let the bounding box resemble the one above. However, include a toggle button. When this button is held (the "Z" button), the bounding box will take up the entire screen. The player can now point to anywhere on the screen without the camera moving. And after the player releases the button, the camera will quickly center on what they were currently pointing at.

These two "modes" of control will work seamlessly together, and bring about a new way to imagine FPS's.


For example
--------------------------
Imagine running down a tight corridor full of turns, wasting flying and crawling enemies along the way. At the end of the corridor lies a mechanical monstrosity with 4 targets located on its chest. This is where you'll want to hold the toggle button. It slowly approaches and forces you to walk backwards down the corridor. The targets are its only weak points and to defeat it you must shoot the water pipes that run along the wall and force it to reveal one of the targets to you. You must shoot the first target, then shoot the next target that randomly appears before the opportunity ends and the mechanical beast regains control (it ends within less than a second). After you hit all four, it becomes stunned and allows you to get close enough to throw a mine on one of the targets (by flicking your wrist like a frisbee) and blow the damn thing up. After a few series of that, you finally kill it. All the while you'll have to strafe left and right and avoid gunfire.

After you've played like this for awhile, you'll start noticing something. You can literally make the camera jump quickly in any direction by holding "Z" then moving your aim to a spot you would like to center on, and then releasing "Z". If theres mulitple enemies around what you had just centered on, you can quickly hold "Z" again and blast them all away. Or, if you see someone running on the outskirts of the TV, you can hold "Z" and accurately place your aim to his head, take a shot while you let the camera auto-recenter (it won't *&#$ up your aim), and then hold "Z" again and take another pop after its centered.

Combine this technique to the already versitile bounding box, and you would have precision unlike any other.

So what do you think? Yay, Nay?




P.S. Zooming with curtain guns is activated by sliding the remote forward. Aiming is still exactly the same.
P.S.S. This would make for the most intense multiplayer battles, due to true skill becoming a factor. Also, add in a Licence to Kill mode to whatever game uses this control first, and you have bond reincarnated.

A sick FPS for the Wii would literally make millions of Xbox fans buy the Wii.

     
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: It's all a matter of time before....
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2006, 10:53:47 PM »
I think this is old news and this will work itself out early next year, considering FPS aiming isn't exclusive to FPS games.

Fixed-cursor aiming on the Wii Remote is a broken idea.  The Remote doesn't provide the same input-response relationship a mouse utilizes, since the mouse relies on a desktop as a reference for 1-to-1 coordinates.  When you roll a mouse laterally, it translates to a "marble in a sphere" which is the behavior of the fixed-cursor.  Using the traditional mouse-ball (you know before optical mice became the norm), that mouse-ball is basically the marble in the sphere, and the marble is a representation of the fixed cursor.  When you glide the mouse forward, the marble rolls "up" inside the sphere, and the fixed-cursor also "aims up" in the same general angle.  This relationship is easy to "feel" in a short time.

The Remote isn't being used this way, cuz it's more like a 12-inch analog stick, but instead of stick's origin resting in the game pad, the origin is something like our elbow or gut.  Deviations from the general "forward" direction are what causes turning and the speed of turning.  But when you apply the fixed-cursor to this mechanic, it turns into the old analog-stick console FPS:  if you wanted to fix your aim on something immediately after turning, you have to snap back to the "neutral position" to prevent further turning.  I think this a stupid thing to do with the Remote.  The bounding box implementation proves to be necessary because it eliminates the need to "snap back".

Splinter Cell: Double Agent's approach to presenting the fixed-cursor is interesting, but man is it slow, and the game is too slow to be applicable to faster, typical FPS gameplay, which will warrant "snap backs".

Determining the proper box size and turning rates and any realtime mode-swithing or combinations are the obvious development experiments right now.

Oh, and auto-aim defeats the purpose and fun of aiming.  And adding too many functions is a bad thing when it takes away buttons from more basic, fundamental functions.  Oh, and slow vertical aiming is plain awful and disjointing, which is why I'm trading in TimeSplitters3.
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Offline Requiem

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2006, 11:54:02 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Professional 666
The Remote isn't being used this way, cuz it's more like a 12-inch analog stick, but instead of stick's origin resting in the game pad, the origin is something like our elbow or gut.  Deviations from the general "forward" direction are what causes turning and the speed of turning.  But when you apply the fixed-cursor to this mechanic, it turns into the old analog-stick console FPS:  if you wanted to fix your aim on something immediately after turning, you have to snap back to the "neutral position" to prevent further turning.  I think this a stupid thing to do with the Remote.  The bounding box implementation proves to be necessary because it eliminates the need to "snap back".


Well, in my control scheme outlined above, there is a solution for "snap back". As you fix your cursor on an enemy, you can press the "Z" button and lock the view into place and deal with it from there. This eliminates "snap back." The whole idea of snap back is greatly reduced because there is no bounding box left or right of the cursor. You'd agree that placing a bounding box left and right of the cursor would only result in further frustration? Think about it.....having to go through a bounding box before turning would result in players over-compensating their aim just to center the enemy. Plus, I think you under estimated how intuitive it is to "roll" the screen. There are many things we do in life that require us to "snap back" in order to achieve our wanted direction. Driving anything for one. Be it a boat or a bike, you have to turn and then readjust your wheel so that it stops turning and points forwards. Also, Super Monkey Ball Banana Blitz proves it as well (though a bit different, still proves the concept).

Quote

Determining the proper box size and turning rates and any realtime mode-swithing or combinations are the obvious development experiments right now.

Oh, and auto-aim defeats the purpose and fun of aiming.  And adding too many functions is a bad thing when it takes away buttons from more basic, fundamental functions.  Oh, and slow vertical aiming is plain awful and disjointing, which is why I'm trading in TimeSplitters3.


Who said anything about auto-aim? I depise it (though love it in GoldenEye).

I don't think you fully understand the slow upwards rotation. Just like horizontal rotation, vertical rotation will get faster and faster the farther out you are. However, unlike horizontal rotation, it does not spin as fast primarily. This allows you greater precision when it comes to the torso-head area.  So if an enemy is at one of the corners of the screen, you can quickly spin him into the slow-ro zone and then take it from there with far greater precision.
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Offline pirateluigi

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 06:10:55 PM »
I was playing around with my Wii and spent a good amount of time just playing in the Mii channel.  Anyway, in the plaza you can move your pointer around and scroll across the whole plaza and I just thought it was the perfect size bounding box (and turning speed) for a FPS.  

I don't like the idea of no bounding box.  You have to dedicate a button to locking the screen (so the player can reset the wii-remote to a neutral position.)  Otherwise, if you look right and then look right again, eventually your remote will be far to the right and if you try to recenter it you end up looking to the left.  BUT, dedicating a button to locking the screen is not a good idea since the wii already has fewer buttons than developers are used to and using one of them for something the other consoles can do without the need for an additional button just makes matters worse.
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Offline MorningStar

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 06:54:44 PM »
Speaking of lack of buttons, do any of you think this will be a big problem in the future for the Wii? Is it already? In a sense, Nintendo already turned the remote movement capabilities into a button (In Zelda) but how else will other companies implement the lack of buttons into games that require a more traditional number (mainly ports)?

Offline Requiem

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 07:09:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: pirateluigi
I was playing around with my Wii and spent a good amount of time just playing in the Mii channel.  Anyway, in the plaza you can move your pointer around and scroll across the whole plaza and I just thought it was the perfect size bounding box (and turning speed) for a FPS.  

I don't like the idea of no bounding box.  You have to dedicate a button to locking the screen (so the player can reset the wii-remote to a neutral position.)  Otherwise, if you look right and then look right again, eventually your remote will be far to the right and if you try to recenter it you end up looking to the left.  BUT, dedicating a button to locking the screen is not a good idea since the wii already has fewer buttons than developers are used to and using one of them for something the other consoles can do without the need for an additional button just makes matters worse.


I think you misunderstood what I was saying (though maybe not). When you point at any part directly left or right of the screen, your screen will start to spin. The only way to stop from spinning is to deviate back to the center of the screen.

The toggle button that freezes your view (much like the "Z" button in Zelda, when not locked on to something, freezes your view) becomes significant when you must overcome a large set of enemies directly in your path. It's for when precision and quickness is absolutely needed. I described such a scenario in my first post.
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But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline Kairon

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 07:10:51 PM »
I think I need to put in more time with both COD3 and Red Steel to form an opinion on this one.

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Offline MorningStar

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2006, 07:11:44 PM »
I'd LOVE to know how CoD 3 is turning out for you; any impressions at ALL up to this point would be GREATLY appreciated.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 07:20:39 PM »
CoD3 is a lot like Red Steel in terms of aiming but you can turn much more quickly and I honestly don't find it a problem. It's even more likely to make some folks ill, though.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 07:35:43 PM »
COD 3 ... is SUPER SENSITIVE. It's amazing how fast you can turn in that game, and amnazing how even a small movement of a wayward arm can move your view.

It's actually AWESOME to watch someone try to adapt to the controls in the middle of combat, you think the game is one long scripted movie because the camera is so dynamic in looking so frenzied and panicked and they're replicating what it's like to be in war... then you realize that the person REALLY IS panicking, they're panicking trying to control their view lest they get killed! In a way, it's so much more exciting because it's not just more visceral because you aim physically, it's more visceral because if you're not in control your visuals are full of chaos and explosions and stuff like that.

But it's easy to aim, it's almost as easy as using a mouse to aim, when I picked up my faithful kar98 and started aiming, it was actually a lot like using my mouse in CoD 1. Aiming in this game is SWEET, but your view will WHIP right around so fast it must be possible to do a 360 in less than a second (I haven't timed it, this is just the impression of how it feels to turn that fast) and even just turning your view a little to go round a corner requirtes you to not rest on the side of the screen for long.

Seriously, a good sensor bar set-up is vital for CoD3 because just dropping your arm lazily can get your view disoriented...

... that said, I've only played the first level.

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Offline Requiem

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 07:40:09 PM »
How far away are you from the TV?
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Offline Arde

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 08:04:20 PM »
Another control type I can think of besides the small bounding box to emulate PC style mouselook is using the motion sensing capabilities in the nunchuk to move the camera.

Tilt nunchuk up/down to move camera vertically, move (with the wrist) nunchuck left/right to move camera horizontally. This way, all aiming or gesture-based movements can be done with the wiimote. 180 degrees turn can also be added easily with perhaps a simple jerk upwards with the nunchuck.

Imagine an Ultima Underworld style game or in Oblivion, where you use the wiimote to invoke gestures for spells, aim crossbows/bows/slings with the pointer function, swing melee weapons with swing movements from the wiimote (similar to Zelda).

So, in summary, movement is controlled with the nunchuk thumbstick and camera movement is controlled with the nunchuk motion sensing capabilities. Aiming and all gesture specific moves are done with the wiimote.

Offline WuTangTurtle

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 08:19:48 PM »
That does sound like a good idea Arde, but I wonder how hard that would be to get used to.  So far that seems like the best solution though.  I'm gonna give Red Steel a 50% completion before i decided to ebay it, I played about an hours worth and im still on the fence about it.  Hopefully by then the game will still be worth something on ebay.

Offline RickPowers

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 04:27:15 AM »
I think you guys should try Monkey Wars, one of the minigames on Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz.  No bounding box, no "snap back", just free movement with the Nunchuk and free aiming with the Wiimote.  Works pretty well for me, although my wife hated it.
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Offline Requiem

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 04:51:26 AM »
I think the best control scheme will find a way to incorporate a large bounding box, only because it is so much more precise than anything before it. Being able to point at an object rather than "turn" to it is much more intiutive.
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But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline Arde

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 05:22:26 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem
I think the best control scheme will find a way to incorporate a large bounding box, only because it is so much more precise than anything before it. Being able to point at an object rather than "turn" to it is much more intiutive.

Exactly, that was my point with using the nunchuck to control the camera movement.
By using the wiimote for free aiming, not only do you get more precision, you also don't have to re-orient your view everytime you try to follow an opponent's movement.

Strafing will be much easier and players won't have to turn around or re-orient their view everytime the opponent moves out of the center view.

Offline Kairon

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 06:19:57 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem
How far away are you from the TV?


6 feet, and my TV is at a higher level than my head because its on ym dorm dresser and I'm sitting down.

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Offline Requiem

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 06:32:33 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arde
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem
I think the best control scheme will find a way to incorporate a large bounding box, only because it is so much more precise than anything before it. Being able to point at an object rather than "turn" to it is much more intiutive.

Exactly, that was my point with using the nunchuck to control the camera movement.
By using the wiimote for free aiming, not only do you get more precision, you also don't have to re-orient your view everytime you try to follow an opponent's movement.

Strafing will be much easier and players won't have to turn around or re-orient their view everytime the opponent moves out of the center view.


While that's true, wouldn't it be more complicated to turn and control your movement? I'm sure once you get the hang of it, it'll show how innovative it is, however, I think the controls are way to complex.
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But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline MorningStar

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 08:10:33 AM »
Thanks, Kairon. That was exactly what I wanted to know. Glad aiming down the sight isn't TOO hard...

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 08:27:22 AM »
In both Red Steel and CoD3, when you hold the A button, the bounding box shrinks dramatically and you can move your gun around and aim without fear of accidentally making the screen turn and missing.

Though, I have to be honest, I'm not having any problem with turning in the game so far, including turning just right and popping a someone in the head before they get a shot off.

Think analogue stick and how sh*tty we all were when we first started using it. I personally sent Mario plunging to his death well over a hundred times because the tilt influencing movement was a new concept for me. Now, I can hammer through Mario 64 like it ain't no thang, so to speak, because I've been using it for years.

The same will be true with the Wiimote aiming, and I can't help but guess that the negative response to Red Steel wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as it is if people knew how to come flying around corners and pop enemies in the head.
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Offline Requiem

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RE:The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 09:36:52 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
In both Red Steel and CoD3, when you hold the A button, the bounding box shrinks dramatically and you can move your gun around and aim without fear of accidentally making the screen turn and missing.


Don't you mean the exact opposite? The bounding box becomes bigger so you have more room to point at without making yourself turn.
"Hey....

I'm not a whore, ok? Really.....really, I'm not.

But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline IceCold

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2006, 05:44:36 PM »
Hmm, I read something ilke this on N-Sider (with the long rectangular bounding box). It does seem like a good idea to have that bounding box you showed and then when you hold a button down to have a bigger bounding box. I've read a scheme where if you hold a button, it would act like fixed-cursor control, and when you let go it would reset to the neutral position.

I need to play Red Steel to judge the control scheme..
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Offline WuTangTurtle

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2006, 07:09:48 PM »
would that essentially be like a mouse and letting go of "A" be like picking up the mouse?

So far I think Red Steel's problem is its frame rate will drop and the Wiimote gets a bit wonkey.

Offline Requiem

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2006, 05:12:12 AM »
I noticed recently that having a button that allows you to move your wiimote within the entire screen may cause alot of problems.

For instance, let's say you hold the "Z" button and aim at the top left of your screen. After you let go of the button and it recenters, you are still physically pointing the Wiimote at the top left screen, and thus ruining the usefulness of having such a button. So after you recenter, it either spins out of control (due your aim still fixated at the top left), or it resets your neutral position.

Either way, it's a pretty flawed system.

However, if there was a way to incoorperate such a feature, it would be leaps and bounds beyond any control seen today.
"Hey....

I'm not a whore, ok? Really.....really, I'm not.

But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

Qoute of the Summer

Offline Kairon

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RE: The next generation of FPS control (long post)
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2006, 05:19:03 AM »
it's almost like you need a second pointer just to control your view independent of aim.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.