Author Topic: Theory on why MGS2:Substance was named what it was (Read 8237 times)

deminisma · « **on:** March 05, 2003, 05:34:46 PM »

This is an entirely useless post, but anyway...

If anyone has played "Snatcher" on Sega CD they'll know the bad guys in the game are known as "Joy Division". This is because one of Hideo Kojima's favorite bands are Joy Division (a late 70's British rock band). Now, Joy Division released a retrospective album after their demise in the late 80's titled "Substance", and there, is the link. It only struck me today.

Kojima must like Joy Division a hell of alot.

nitsu niflheim · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2003, 05:46:59 AM »

My theory is more simple. I think the re-release of MGS2 was named "Substance" because the original version lacked any. Consumers cried fowl, so it gets re-released with the option of playing Snake all the way through. Kojima, IMO, was so secretive with the game because he KNEW that he had screwed up and didn't want to admit he had screwed up so far into the game's development schedule, hence the re-release of Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty as Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance. But IMO, Raiden wasn't the problem, it was the horrible story that made the game terrible.

boggy b · « **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2003, 11:03:44 AM »

And my theory is more likely:

MGS2 didn't lack substance, but Substance just has more!

MGS2 was a good game, jsut not as good as the original.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #3 on:** March 06, 2003, 12:56:51 PM »

I think Substance was picked just because it's a good buzzword like "Super", "Extended", "Extreme", or "Special" for an improved edition. Since Super Metal Gear Solid 2 Turbo: Champion Edition Third Impact sounds stupid then went with Substance which sounds more mature. I guess the Joy Division theory is possible but it's not like "Substance" is a really odd name for an "Director's Cut" game.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #4 on:** March 06, 2003, 06:27:34 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: nitsujdark
My theory is more simple. I think the re-release of MGS2 was named "Substance" because the original version lacked any. Consumers cried fowl, so it gets re-released with the option of playing Snake all the way through. Kojima, IMO, was so secretive with the game because he KNEW that he had screwed up and didn't want to admit he had screwed up so far into the game's development schedule, hence the re-release of Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty as Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance. But IMO, Raiden wasn't the problem, it was the horrible story that made the game terrible.

VERY well said. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Uncle Rich AiAi · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2003, 07:31:44 PM »

Raiden didn't go down with Japanese fans. was it because he has no genitalia?

dafunkk12 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2003, 04:49:03 PM »

Actually, the Joy Division theory was featured quite a while back in EGM. I can't remember if it was also theory or if they said it was the real inspiration, but you did some good investigation.

AlbinoPanda · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2003, 08:36:32 AM »

I think it's called Substance because it's a game. MGS2:SoL was just a movie with a few scenes where you could play. I actually drank a 24 case of Mountain Dew: Code Red while watching the "cutscenes" in the "game".

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2003, 09:18:46 AM »

I am just kind of trying to figure out why anyone would be drinking Mountain Dew and playing Metal Gear Solid 2.... As if one or the other wasn't bad enough? Were you being tortured by some fiend? Were you trying to commit suicide by misery? I am just utterly in shock at this.

The Omen · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2003, 06:53:12 PM »

Actually, Mountain Dew :Code Red can be rather refreshing.... if only the same could be said for MSG2.....

boggy b · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2003, 07:36:32 AM »

Hey, have you noticed that before the announcement of MGS on GCN, it was the worst game ever. Now that it's to be released on GCN its the best thing ever!!

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2003, 06:52:28 PM »

My opinion on Metal Gear has not changed.

Before Metal Gear was announced on GameCube:

1) I LOVE MGS. It's about my 5th favorite game ever! (I have proof)
2) I HATE MGS2. I could care less that it's not on GameCube.

After Metal Gear was announced on GameCube:

1) I LOVE MGS. It's about my 5th favorite game ever!
2) I HATE MGS2. It had better NOT be coming to GameCube.
3) I want to see a remake of MGS or one of the MSX Metal Gears on GameCube.
4) I want an all new Metal Gear that doesn't suck on GameCube.

SiroAlaskaSky · « **Reply #12 on:** October 26, 2003, 02:38:05 AM »

Hey Aiai

You have posted a message of how to break a guards neck... Have you figured it out. I'm still try to do it and i'm playing the game without killing somebody. Please will you give instructions detailing the buttons i have to press

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #13 on:** October 26, 2003, 04:43:24 AM »

Aiai hasn't been around in a long time...All things considering, this topic is 7 months old!

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #14 on:** October 26, 2003, 08:24:12 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: SiroAlaskaSky
Hey Aiai

You have posted a message of how to break a guards neck... Have you figured it out. I'm still try to do it and i'm playing the game without killing somebody. Please will you give instructions detailing the buttons i have to press

PC version or PSX version?

At any rate, you have to sneak up behind someone, and grab them. After you have them in a choke hold, you keep pressing the (grab?) button until they die.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #15 on:** October 26, 2003, 08:30:03 AM »

I can vouch for Ninja on this one, boggy- he's been a vocal detractor of MGS2 for as long as I can remember, and a vocal supporter of MGS for just as long. Someone's opinion on one game in a series doesn't necessarily apply to another game in the same series.

Urkel · « **Reply #16 on:** October 26, 2003, 08:30:17 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: boggy b
Hey, have you noticed that before the announcement of MGS on GCN, it was the worst game ever. Now that it's to be released on GCN its the best thing ever!!

Huh? Even on Nintendo forums, MGS is almost universally considered to be an excellent game, even before Twin Snakes was announced. It's MGS2 that people bash constantly, which I can't help but feel is partially unfair. I haven't played it, so I can't say for myself, but it seems that just about the only reason people hate MGS2 is because it had a bad story and pathetic main character, not because of any gameplay issues.

My opinion of MGS hasn't changed much. I considered it a very fun game with a completely implausible plot, that was told in a way that made you think it was plausible. I liked it a lot. I just never considered it on the same level as Ocarina of Time, like some people seem to.

The reason I'm so hyped about Twin Snakes is because:

1. The very capable guys at SK are (re)making it.
2. Shiggy Wiggy is involved.
3. Konami has finally decided to stop screwing over GCN owners, and has stopped spitting in our faces with these condescending Disney Sports games. I think some of the people at Konami actually bought into the "Gamecube is for four year olds" crap.

Koopa Troopa · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2003, 09:30:49 PM »

Boggy B, we LIKE MGS, we don't like MGS2. MGS1 is be remade for the Cube.

Quote
Huh? Even on Nintendo forums, MGS is almost universally considered to be an excellent game, even before Twin Snakes was announced. It's MGS2 that people bash constantly, which I can't help but feel is partially unfair. I haven't played it, so I can't say for myself, but it seems that just about the only reason people hate MGS2 is because it had a bad story and pathetic main character, not because of any gameplay issues.

No, the problem is GamePlay more than it is Story. The problem is there isn't much GamePlay to speak of, so you end up watching a boring movie with a lame character and getting to move down a hallway before your next movie (Not unlike FFX). MGS2 was a painful experience.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2003, 01:42:53 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Urkel
Huh? Even on Nintendo forums, MGS is almost universally considered to be an excellent game, even before Twin Snakes was announced. It's MGS2 that people bash constantly, which I can't help but feel is partially unfair. I haven't played it, so I can't say for myself, but it seems that just about the only reason people hate MGS2 is because it had a bad story and pathetic main character, not because of any gameplay issues.

Before I played it, I was often vocal in my own defense of the game. I mean, the trailers for it ROCK, and by watching the gameplay footage, you can see that it's a vastly upgraded version of MGS, which was a very fun game right? People griping about the story can't all be right, as the story was a big part of the first game as well, with cut scenes sometimes taking more than 10 minutes.

But put all that aside. The game is complete unadultered crap after the first hour. I really don't know how else to describe it, but it got progressively worse until it was painful to play it near the end.

I was just thankful that Silent Hill 2 didn't disgrace the fine Silent Hill franchise as well.

robofish · « **Reply #19 on:** October 27, 2003, 04:44:09 PM »

You actually know what bands Hideo Kojima likes? Are you some kind of stalker?

Urkel · « **Reply #20 on:** October 27, 2003, 06:56:55 PM »

Oh, okay. I just assumed that since everybody focuses on the story of MGS2, that it was the only major issue.

Of course, if it were to ever get ported over to the Cube, I would still like to see for myself.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #21 on:** October 28, 2003, 01:39:49 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Urkel
Oh, okay. I just assumed that since everybody focuses on the story of MGS2, that it was the only major issue.

Of course, if it were to ever get ported over to the Cube, I would still like to see for myself.

No, no. The story isn't the only issue, but it's by FAR the biggest.

But.... I really hate to admit this, and I likely won't repeat it, and I would REALLY appreciate it if I wasn't bugged about this. But the Toys R Us near me had a whole bunch of copies of MGS2: Substance that they were clearing out for $25 a pop, and I bought one. I only play the VR Missions and the first level in the game, as I don't care to play the rest, but I really enjoy it now that I know better than to finish it. I was willing to pay the $25 for the first level, because it DOES rule so much, and I AM still a Metal Gear fan despite the rest of the game. But me simply owning the game does not change the fact that I hate the game and wish it were never made.

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Author Topic: Theory on why MGS2:Substance was named what it was (Read 8237 times)