Topic: What are the good RPG@s out there

[Kairon]

Games are the mold upon which the artist carves out the inner workings of their IMMORTAL SOUL.

Observers only have the privilege of glimpsing that intimate relationship from a distance.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

ToS is fit for players who like to explore (whatever tha mechanic).  That's the division among players.

The players who like to explore don't need to be teased or ask to be presented with incentives.  Just knowing options exist, being hinted with possibilities, are enough to send them on their way.

That, and, they won't remain stuck driving behind a slow car when they know other lanes are open.  ToS is a 10-lane freeway, not a bus ride.  Getting tired of a TV show?  Change the channel.  Need a little excitement?  Snap into a SlimJim*.

*not an endorsement for SlimJim.

[Kairon]

I prefer the Miyamoto mechanic for integrating exploration into gameplay. Just because you put many things in a garden doesn't mean that people will investigate all those things. Instead, a garden has to be tended such that the visitor is guided not by artifice, but by nature, and so that every corner they turn, they are rewarded with new experiences.

In much the same way, WoW uses "breadcrumb" quests to lure players out of lands they're appropriately levelled for and into new, more exciting, more level-appropriate areas. THIS essentially makes exploration an integral part of the game, instead of an optional pathway that is entirely up to the player to implement.

The opposite, the garden with points of interest randomly strewn about with no relation to each other at all, is more like Second Life. There's wonders all around you, but there's nothing to tell you that: no streets that promise excitement, no context to slowly ease the user from one sight to the next, no mechanism to guide the player on a journey of discovery. Instead, Second Life is a chaotic universe of vast expanses of barren undeveloped land and cluttered unorganized second-rate user-created sprawling sludge, with the gems few and far between...

There are some seriously BEAUTIFUL pieces of user-created content in Second Life, but good luck finding them without grabbing another player, and asking for a "warp."

In contrast, in WoW, in Japanese Gardens, and in Miyamoto's games, you're not dropped like a baby giraffe into a careless and unorganized world, but instead pointed in the right direction and given the incentive to be bold and take that step around the corner.

...

Even on a 10-lane freeway, you can see that there are other lanes to switch to, exits to take, shortcuts to get lost in, rest stops, gas stations, small towns and small urgan adventures. But with ToS, I felt like I was on a 1-lane road through a forest, the trees on either side of me 2D textures that concealed everything beyond them and promised nothing if I dared venture that way.

For all I know there could have been festivals on the other side of those trees, carnivals and dancing bears and katamaris and beluga whales and flowers in her haird and bells on the hill that I never heard ringing and all sorts of wonderful things like whiskers on kittens and raindrops and noses and beluga whales... did I say beluga whales twice? thrice.

AND that's all WONDERFUL. I LOVE THAT. I bet I've even loved games that require me to force my way past the developer's ineptitude to enjoy the goodness! I'm not knocking ANY of that stuff's worth.

What I AM knocking is WHO IN THE HELL PUT ALL THOSE TREES BETWEEN ME AND THE GOOD STUFF?!?!?! WHY WOULD THEY LET ME SPEED THROUGH A GAME I AM SUPPOSED TO ENJOY!?!?!?! WHY WERE THERE NO EXITS OFF OF MY ONE-LANE HIGHWAY TO EVEN HINT AT THE WONDERS THAT LAY BEYOND?!?!?! WHY OH CRUEL FATE WHY?!?!?!

...

Yeah. I have nothing against games for collectors (Pokemon, Mario's 8 red coins, Rocket Slime), games for explorers (Tail of the Sun, WoW, GTA 3), games for people who want to actually play games instead of blow through them in one night (Zelda:WW, WoW, GTA 3).

I just can't like a game that rushed me through it almost as if it intentionally wanted me to not ever discover that it had depth, or sidequests, or nuance... I also can't like a game with a cliched anime story. YUCK. Big-boob jokes are lame-o.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Athrun Zala]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
What I AM knocking is WHO IN THE HELL PUT ALL THOSE TREES BETWEEN ME AND THE GOOD STUFF?!?!?!

you did ^^

[UniversalJuan]

But...but I like playing as Llyod and stringing his oves together and then finishing with a team special for 100+ hit combos in single palyer. Call me artificial and boring, but I just like playing with Llyod..sue me.

[UltimatePartyBear]

There may be massive spoilers in this post, but I don't want to mess with figuring out where to put spoiler tags.  I'll try to be vague.

I don't see how the game doesn't tempt you with sidequests.  It constantly dangled things just out of reach for me.  For example, the biggest sidequest in the game starts with you finding a cursed weapon in the mine, something that anyone with the tiniest modicum of explorer's instinct would find.  I can't imagine anyone saying, "Well, I got what I came for, so I don't see any reason to walk three feet to the next box to see what's in it."  So now you've got a cursed weapon.  What's the point of it?  It doesn't seem to have any benefits at all.  There must be something to it, right?

Then there's a floating city that, from what I remember, is completely optional.  There's no reason to visit it in the main plot, but if that's enough to keep you from checking it out, there's something wrong with you, not the game.  What happens when you visit it?  Among other things, you learn about another Summon Spirit.  You learn that it has ties to the floating city.  If you've ever played a game before, you should realize that this sort of NPC chatter isn't just for show.  It takes keen observation to figure out what to do from there.

There's also an elite monster that you can find and battle throughout the game.  The first time you can meet him, he's behind a door that you have no real need to go through as far as the main plot is concerned, but how could you possibly resist seeing what's beyond it?  Right in front of you, there's the way to continue on the main quest.  Just to the right, a great big door just fell open.  If you don't want to go through that door, it's not the game's fault.

Tales of Symphonia doesn't beat you over the head with clues to the sidequests, but the signs are still there.  It simply requires that you have the desire to explore the game's world for exploration's sake.  If you count on the game to hold your hand, it'll do that and railroad you right through the main story with never a dull moment on the way.  Even so, it's your own fault if you lack the natural curiosity to propel you down a sidequest instead.  Just because this game's breadcrumbs aren't marked with giant floating yellow exclamation points doesn't mean they aren't apparent if you look for them.

[KDR_11k]

I'm one of those boring people who got through ToS without encountering any major sidequest (other than that super-powerful skeleton thing) and without noticing alternate costumes even exist in the game.

[Kairon]

Funny... the only thing I EVER found in Tales was that elite skeleton thingy too...

I don't want the game to hold my hand, I want it to point out my choices. ToS never did that for me, as far as I knew there was only ever one choice for this WoW explorer and NPC-Lore hound: forward.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Infernal Monkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

I even hated Skies of Arcadia. Cliches abound in THAT overrated game from a console underdog too.

Edit: Forgive me, I'm an old curmedgeon who loved FF6, hated FF7, and whose last enjoyable RPG experience was Paper Mario on the N64.

There's no possible way you can hate Skies for being cliched and then say you love a Final Fantasy game.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

I even hated Skies of Arcadia. Cliches abound in THAT overrated game from a console underdog too.

Edit: Forgive me, I'm an old curmedgeon who loved FF6, hated FF7, and whose last enjoyable RPG experience was Paper Mario on the N64.

There's no possible way you can hate Skies for being cliched and then say you love a Final Fantasy game.

Terra has no love interest. She's doesn't need to latch onto a man to establish her identity. That immediately makes FF6 IMMENSELY less cliched than 90% of the other games out there.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

P.S. I am hypocrite... the story I've been working on in my head for ages DOES have the two main characters as love interests for each other. I am cry.

[wandering]

You could make the 2 main characters girls. That would be pretty non-stereotypical. And hot.

[KDR_11k]

And would get Jack Thompson complaining that you try to corrupt children.

[Smoke39]

I corrupt children.