Author Topic: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.  (Read 46101 times)

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Offline BigJim

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2006, 11:03:06 AM »
I don't think I have particular disagreements with Nintendo's core values.  But I do know that tough love is love too.
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Offline TerribleOne

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2006, 11:05:47 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
BigJim, I don't want to believe in Nintendo's position. I didn't want to believe in Blizzard's position. I just do..or did. Now I'm no longer a Blizzard fanboy, I couldn't care about them less... well.. maybe I'd care about them a little less if.... but I am still a Nintendo fan.

And I don't believe that everything Nintendo says is gospel. Instead, I believe that Nintendo is a kindred spirit who holds the same values as I do. I don't adopt my view of myself to whatever Nintendo says, I find that Nintendo's views have always been affirmed by my own personal observations.




Yea i think we understand where you're coming from. but there's a point where the line is drawn b/w "real" nintendo fan and a consumer nintendo fan.  this may come as a shock to some... but nintendo cares more about consumers than hardcore fans. thats why they are speakin their oceans and seas and what-not. they are simply trying to say "hey we are trying to get more $" and eventhough we both cheer for nintendo if they succeed, we care about it for different reasons. Nintendo is a company that worries about marketshare and stocks and us consumation-driven fans.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2006, 12:18:48 PM »
Agreed, Terrible.

Blue Ocean isn't an ideal. It's PR speak. Nintendo would love Sony's and MS's 100 million "Red Sea" if they could get it.

I don't think many have a problem with blue ocean-speak in itself, but there are gamers that aren't thrilled about Nintendo splitting their attention if they are not big enough to adequately support both the blue ocean AND the red sea.

Subjectively speaking, so far they've shown they're not. People keep mentioning Zelda, Mario, Metroid, and SSBB as proof nobody's being left behind. These 4 games spread out over the course of the next year (and they will be) is still going to mean droughts to many of those players unless there is ample supply of other viable games of similar or better quality (Edit: by Nintendo or 3rd parties) to fill the gaps between them.

I don't think anybody needs to be reminded (then again maybe they do) of GameCube's dust-collecting gaps despite having all of these IPs and 500+ other games.

Nintendo has made it abundantly clear who they are going after and the types of games they want to make to tap the blue ocean. The hardcores will get thrown bones and left in the Red Sea lest they desire to pretend their Wiimote is a dumbbell.

That is what it means (to me) to be left behind. Nobody else *has* to agree with it.  It doesn't make opinions any less valid, try as some have in the last year.  
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2006, 01:20:30 PM »
I think we've discovered the truth. Billy present is... Ian Sane past. One of them is using a time machine to pose as the other. The question is... which?

Seriously, the complaints about Nintendo ignoring hardcore gamers are just as silly now that Billy is making them as they were when Ian was. If anything, Nintendo is going to rely more on hardcore gamers, at least early on, then the casual market it keeps talking about.  

Edit:
Quote

Subjectively speaking, so far they've shown they're not. People keep mentioning Zelda, Mario, Metroid, and SSBB as proof nobody's being left behind. These 4 games spread out over the course of the next year (and they will be) is still going to mean droughts to many of those players unless there is ample supply of other viable games of similar or better quality to fill the gaps between them.
And how many titles of comparable quality are Sony and Microsoft producing in the next year? If your definition of support for the base is Nintendo providing a constant slew of AAA titles, then there never has been such support, at least not in the last decade. Your expectations simply don't mesh with business reality. It doesn't make sense for any one game developer to try and put out more than four such titles a year.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2006, 02:04:24 PM »
I didn't mean it had to be only Nintendo-made games. Sorry if you were confused.  
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Offline TerribleOne

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2006, 02:33:47 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: BigJim
I didn't mean it had to be only Nintendo-made games. Sorry if you were confused.


yea i was just about 2 say that... Nintendo's not the only company out there who can make us benefit as gamers. but it seems to be like if nintendo is not releasin anythin, the system is collectin dust. so of course us red sea gamers are goin to complain when see um about 75% of nintendo's focus goin the other way after allll the years we hav gone thru. as a consumer i want to see increase marketshare so that third parties giv us games for both sides but mainly because me, myself and I and other red sea gamers will benefit
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2006, 02:51:29 PM »
His skepticism seems largely based around his existing experience with Nintendo, experience which most of its buyers likely won't have much of.

And he basically ignored the DS a shining example of how Nintendo has learned to overpower "image" and sell a sh*load of consoles and games.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2006, 03:34:37 PM »
They were always a monopoly and always successful in portables.

He's talking about the console business (obviously), which != the portable one.
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Offline trip1eX

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2006, 03:38:56 PM »
Does anyone want cheese with their whine?  


Offline zakkiel

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2006, 04:11:15 PM »
Quote

I didn't mean it had to be only Nintendo-made games. Sorry if you were confused.
I assumed you were because there's no other excuse for ignoring Red Steel, CoD3, Fire Emblem, or Resident Evil. Whether or not you like them, they are undeniably aimed at the core, and they undeniably have pull with that group. So now I really am confused.  
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2006, 05:51:24 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: BigJim
They were always a monopoly and always successful in portables.

He's talking about the console business (obviously), which != the portable one.


Thing is, Nintendo's situation in the portable console market was identical to their situation with the Wii: they're up against a foe which is graphically superior, perceived as "cool" and "mature", yet their drastically weaker console with an innovative new feature struck down a multimedia powerhouse which boasted a whole range of capabilities beyond being a simple gaming machine.

Everyone always said that the only reason Nintendo held onto the handheld console market was the lack of a real competitor and many speculated that Sony would be the competitor who would not only neuter their stranglehold on the handheld console market but stomp Nintendo into submission.

Would the GBA 2 have beat the PSP? Not likely. The DS offered something new, something approachable by people who don't even think about gaming because, in their eyes, it IS an activity reserved for a select few hardcore.

The Wii is everything the DS was and mimics its situation to a tee. Not citing it as an example of how Nintendo has begun to change the market to their favor is foolishness.

Plus, how does he write off Nintendo's overwhelming 3rd party support? You can't simply write off all of the 3rd parties who have not only jumped on Nintendo's bandwagon but also come back to their console after even 2 generations of no Nintendo support.  
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Offline RickPowers

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2006, 06:29:26 PM »
Arguably, though ... the PSP is failing because it doesn't have sh!t for games.  

Some interesting arguments being made here.  Keep it up.
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Offline Deguello

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2006, 06:31:00 PM »
Myth: Nintendo has always had a marketshare monopoly on handhelds with no competition.

Fact: Nintendo has actually had more competition in the handheld sector than anywhere else.  The GameGear, the Sega Nomad, the Wonderswan (SquareSoft support in Japan, pretty huge), The Neo Geo Pocket, the NGage, The Atari Lynx, the GP32, even stuff like the Game.com and the Gizmondo, are all sufficient challengers to the throne.  Just because they all got their ass handed to them doesn't mean that there was no competition.  It's not Nintendo's fault their competitors were limp and tepid.  
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Offline UncleBob

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2006, 07:10:00 PM »
Well, I'm going to do something that I typically don't like to do, but the fact is, I've had my fill of Whiining over the past few days, so I couldn't read this entire thread before posting.

I've read a lot of "I'm an old school gamer, blah, blah, blah."

While I have to say, I *hate* the term "old school", I completly fall into that catagory.  Born in 1980 into a home with an Intellivision, I grew up playing video games.  Over the years, I've owned every Nintendo console and handheld, the Intellivision, Atari 2600 and 7200, a short-lived Game Gear, and a PlayStation.  Over the years, I've spent a lot of time playing PS2, TG16, and a Genesis.  A decent little bit of time was spent playing the two XBoxes, a Colecovision, and a SEGA Master System.  This isn't to mention the tons of little LED handheld games I had by the case load (really, little plastic cases for action figures loaded with these things).

And I'm totally 100% excited about Wii.

The fact is, you hear a lot about how "Nintendo is teh d00med" because they didn't sell 40 million units or whatever... but the fact is they make money.  In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet that Nintendo could keep going happily just making systems that only play their games... They'd still sell.  We saw it with the GameCube - hardly anyone purchased it for third party games.  But that's a whole different arguement.

All in all, Nintendo has me excited - yet again.  Perhaps I'm a blinded fanboy.  Hell, I thought Connectivity was awesome and I loved my e-Reader...  But, hey, it's more fun being a blinded fanboy than it is to be a jaded fanboy.
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Offline IceCold

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2006, 07:25:42 PM »
Quote

the Wii should had just release at a $350 price tag with more power. admittedly or not you would had still gotten it.
I have become 100% convinced that if Nintendo did such a thing, they would fail miserably, as much as people like Ian or Billy would like to think otherwise. I think I came to this realisation during the HD debate. Think about it; maybe we on this forum would buy it, and a few others, but who else would give a damn about the console if it was similarly priced the the 360 and PS3? I've heard Ian say over and over that they need to have a "traditional" console without the "screwups" of the N64 and the GameCube. His main reasons of why the GameCube failed are, I believe, things like a smaller disc, expensive memory cards, no demo discs and marketing. Really, the only thing that I believe really contributed was the bad marketing. Those other things are trivial, and even if they were fixed, I I doubt it would have saved the GameCube. So, what else did they do wrong with the Cube? Not much, I'd say.. Third party support was a vicious cycle (thid parties give half-assed ports, they don't sell, they stop supporting the GameCube, the marketshare goes down, third party games don't sell, etc) but I really believe Nintendo tried hard to secure more support for their console. See Crystal Chronicles (even the fact that they collaborated with Square was big), Capcom 5, when Nintendo leased their franchises to SEGA and Namco to improve relations, etc. Looking at the GameCube's game lineup, it had some brilliant games that deserved to be the best-selling games in the generation. Yet many of them went ignored, because the Xbox/PlayStation crowd just didn't care about Nintendo.

Taking this into consideration, if Nintendo made a console for "old school" (ugh) gamers, they would be buried. Let's say they went all out with a powerful (yet expensive) console, HD support, traditional controller, costly disc media, a full blown online service, and only hardcore games with sky-high production values. This would be, to put it lightly, a disaster. I have accepted that Nintendo just can't compete with the deep pockets and aggressive marketing of Sony and MS. They can't regain the traditional market. They're just a small videogame company with no other interests, trying to survive among corporate giants. Another traditional console, especially one with a price tag like that, wouldn't have a chance. They just wouldn't have much return in terms of marketshare, third party support, software sales and, in general, profit.. There would be nothing to differentiate between them and the other consoles, and if this happened, it would be a pipe dream to believe that Nintendo could come out on top. Casual gamers would go with the 360 or PS3 every time because of the mindshare that Nintendo doesn't have. Billy or Ian would probably say, at this point, that all they need to differentiate themselves are their usual amazing games. I would beg to differ, though.. Again, look at the GameCube. Nintendo's games, however much better they were than the competition, didn't make much difference in the end.

And that is why Nintendo needed something different. They needed to separate themselves, to innovate, to build momentum by being unique, and to capture the attention of those who wouldn't otherwise care. A $350 console would stop all of this in its tracks. It would be a complete turn-off to many people, especially the ones who don't care about the CPU's power. These are the people whom Nintendo is trying to capture.. They sure as hell won't pay that much for a game console, when they aren't interested in playing videogames anyway. You could argue that $250 is even too much, but Nintendo has this covered. They pack in Wii Sports, so that the hardcore early adopters get it with the system. The launch and the next few shipments will sell out to the early birds, so a lower price is not needed. To top this off, they can use viral marketing through Wii Sports, and get casuals and nongamers interested in the system. Then, after a few months, they cut the price, inviting people to try the console out. It's a great strategy..

And finally, is $350 really worth it for some extra power? I'm more than satisfied with the visuals that the Wii is busting out.. Look at Super Mario Galaxy, for example - that with progressive scan is a treat visually. I would even argue that it looks better than most 360/PS3 games since it's so artistic compared to the bland styles on many of the games on those consoles. I most definitely would not want to pay $100 more for better visuals, especially since they're reaching a plateau. Think about it; the jump from the N64 to the GameCube was huge. The one from this generation to the next is not so much.. In fact, on a SDTV or EDTV, it's a very small jump. Looking at the difference between Wii games and PS3 games, especially on a SDTV, it most certainly isn't worth all that extra money.

Yeah, long post, but it had to be said..
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2006, 07:29:47 PM »
IceCold is da man.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2006, 07:57:15 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: RickPowers
Arguably, though ... the PSP is failing because it doesn't have sh!t for games.  


...which came about because the games made for it didn't sell, leading fewer developers to want to create games for it.

It also came about BECAUSE the PSP was advertised as a multimedia device instead of a gaming console, making developers leery that their games would be competing for market with all manners of movies in addition to games, a fact which is VERY relevant with the PS3 because they're pushing the goddamn thing as a computer and a BluRay player instead of a pure gaming machine.  
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2006, 07:58:08 PM »
Awesome post Icecold, well thought out and it makes sense. I agree with you that I've been more impressed visually with games like SMG or Red Steel than most of the PS3/Xbox 360. Maybe they don't have the purty lighting (that you don't care about after awhile), or super detailed textures along with characters, but they are artistically stunning something you don't see much anymore (Not to mention they RUN smoothly). Now days you mostly see dark, realistic shooters that take place in the future, some of which can't even maintain a smooth framerate. I'm honestly to the point where the graphical power really is not something I care much about, because for one it isn't a big of deal too me since I see most of it as minor "bonus effects". Give me an artistic visual experience backed by solid visuals ANYDAY.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2006, 07:59:33 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote

Originally posted by: RickPowers
Arguably, though ... the PSP is failing because it doesn't have sh!t for games.  


...which came about because the games made for it didn't sell, leading fewer developers to want to create games for it.

It also came about BECAUSE the PSP was advertised as a multimedia device instead of a gaming console, making developers leery that their games would be competing for market with all manners of movies in addition to games, a fact which is VERY relevant with the PS3 because they're pushing the goddamn thing as a computer.


At least the PS3 is a GREAT deal, I mean Sony tells me that all the time so it must be true, even if I don't want a Bluray player that may or may not work lol.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2006, 09:19:47 PM »
Well, let's not turn this into a graphics thred, but great post Ice Cold. lol.

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2006, 10:47:05 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Well, let's not turn this into a graphics thred, but great post Ice Cold. lol.

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I'll turn this into a graphics thread if I want lol. Anyway back to the original editorial, one thing I could not understand is why Billy seemed to be complaining about the web browser. Ok, webTV didn't work out, but still does it hurt to have a web brower included for free? It isn't like we are really paying more for it (unless you wait until after June) unlike some other unnamed system with bonus stuff you really are paying for.
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Offline WuTangTurtle

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2006, 12:42:12 AM »
Ice Cold nailed it, you don't need super realistic graphics.  What you need is something visually stunning.  I think if you look at some of the Wii games artwork you instantly know what it is.  For example look at SMG, Rayman, Red Steel, etc each have their own unique look.  Then compare KillZone, Gears of War, Unreal Tournament 07, Mass Effect, Prey, and even Oblivion don't really have their own unique look.

If you took a screenshot from each game and slabbed them all next to each other it would be hard to name each game.

Plus I think game developers wanted the Wii to be what it is, something that they could easily profit from versus something that could end them up with filing for Chapter 9 (ehm midway).

Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2006, 12:50:09 AM »
Good lord I'm not going to read 4 pages of terror, but;

Quote

Another launch with a new Mario title absent already makes me nervous. Seriously? Is this the N64 and GameCube all over again?


Yeah because N64 didn't launch with a Mario gam-oh wait.

Quote

With Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Super Smash Bros. Brawl all moving into the 2007 space, you can pretty much see all four of those games getting spread out to fill the entire 2007 year.


That's three! Nintendo is quite obviously doomed forever once again. Whinge whinge wah wah.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2006, 01:17:16 AM »
Lol Infernal I didn't even notice the statement about the N64 not launching with a Mario games.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2006, 02:46:10 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: zakkiel
Quote

I didn't mean it had to be only Nintendo-made games. Sorry if you were confused.
I assumed you were because there's no other excuse for ignoring Red Steel, CoD3, Fire Emblem, or Resident Evil. Whether or not you like them, they are undeniably aimed at the core, and they undeniably have pull with that group. So now I really am confused.


Being aimed at the core doesn't mean they're equal or better quality. Many accounts I'm reading/hearing is that Red Steel is way too early, for example. But the point is not about specific games. Again, GameCube was a dust collector regardless of its 500 releases. It's about maintaining consistent flow of ample high-quality support overall throughout the system life with games that people actually want to buy.

There are people everywhere, including the Penny Arcade guys and even PGC staff that have said they've only gotten a GCN game every several months. Are they satisfied with that? If they're really avid gamers, I doubt it. The problem is not the lack of technically available titles. The problem is has been the lack of the types of games I just italicized above. And if titles in the future are going to split between core games and games for my sister, the problem might continue. And considering they've explained quite clearly that our parents and sisters are their primary target next gen, it sounds like that's the way it's going to be.


Quote

Plus, how does he write off Nintendo's overwhelming 3rd party support? You can't simply write off all of the 3rd parties who have not only jumped on Nintendo's bandwagon but also come back to their console after even 2 generations of no Nintendo support.


I can't speak for Billy, but for me, see previous response.


Quote

Fact: Nintendo has actually had more competition in the handheld sector than anywhere else. The GameGear, the Sega Nomad, the Wonderswan (SquareSoft support in Japan, pretty huge), The Neo Geo Pocket, the NGage, The Atari Lynx, the GP32, even stuff like the Game.com and the Gizmondo, are all sufficient challengers to the throne. Just because they all got their ass handed to them doesn't mean that there was no competition. It's not Nintendo's fault their competitors were limp and tepid.


How much marketshare did any of those challengers obtain at any given point? A monopoly doesn't mean strictly "no competition". Microsoft has legally been found to be a monopoly holder in operating systems. But there are still other operating systems out there.

And, nice post IceCold.  Nintendo needed to be different somehow or else they'd be all but ignored next generation.  
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