Topic: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.

[King of Twitch]

hit Alt+F4 to avoid cynical post

3rd parties will start pouring in once the Wii is seen as a success, it will just take time
>>I dunno about that. Look at the last 4 years.

Capcom 5 - demolished in 7 months
RE4 exclusivity announcement - self-destructed
Soul Calibur 3 - PS3 exclusive after SC2 selling best on Cube
Konami - MGS1 ported courtesy SK, sequels stayed on PS2 and Xbox; disney, disney, disney
Sega - FZero, Dreamcast port, Dreamcast port, Dreamcast port, Dreamcast port, Dreamcast port, Dreamcast port, Dreamcast port
Namco - Pacman, Pacman, Pacman, Pacman

Billy does have a point; Has the Wii suddenly made these comanies less retarded?

[Kairon]

The question is, will third parties treat the Wii like the Cube or like the DS?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

MJR I don't think Gamecube was ever seen as a sucess, that is why alot of those games were canned or moved to multiplatform. The thing is that so far the Wii has more hype and more press behind it than the GameCube ever had, and if that translates into killer console sales those companies will most likely smarten up. Not only that but so far most companies are intrigued by the Wii, that is another thing GC did not have, and with cheaper development costs it  will not be a huge risk to make a game for Wii so we may see alot of exclusives for Wii, even if some of the first games may not be overly complex. Then again we have Red Steel and Rayman which have relatively high production values.

[ReverendNoahWhateley]

Accordingly, the article discussed the issue of Wii's perceived graphical handicap.

Do I just see the world in low-def?  I don't get it.  Most of the Wii pics I've seen aren't merely adequate.  They're fantastic, the equal to most everything being touted by Microsoft and Sony.  I know it's a cliche, but Red Steel is gorgeous, and Mario Galaxy's looking more visually-impressive with each new screenshot.  Between the rich visuals of Red Steel and Rayman, Ubisoft has even a curmudgeonly American like myself chiming "Vive la France!"  I understand that the Wii's raw horsepower is far less virile than that of the 360 or PS3, but to my untrained eye, the advantages of their technical superiority are trifling.  

[King of Twitch]

The ones I mentioned were done for completely arbitrary and often self-defeating reasons. The GC was definitely assassinated by the press from the beginning. Obviously Sony was working to sabotage their efforts behind the scenes so that has to be taken into account.

[BigJim]

Billy, like Rick, like myself, and like others too (probably Ian?) are all old-school fans and, I think, just want nothing more than to say Nintendo has a fighting chance.

N64 had a lot going for it pre-launch and early in its life... "3D done right". The analog stick. The rumble pak that came a bit later. It was exciting hardware and it absolutely got gamers talking. But it still ultimately suffered similarly as the GameCube did. Wii is no guarantee despite the attention it's getting.

I know that the age range here is pretty wide, and the level of attachment is across the board, but to a lifetime Nintendo fan since NES, seeing them fail can royally suck. It's not unlike being a hardcore football fan and having a home team that can't get it together. Or seeing your favorite athlete lose his/her edge. Michael Jordan coming back, knowing that the magic of the glory years would never be reproduced. Or however you want to look at it. To some degree, they become a part of your pride if you are hardcore enough.

Rick had it correct; Nintendo is not the same company anymore. Their changes are leaving the old-school behind. If you're enamored with the "new Nintendo," of course you have nothing to worry about. But don't dismiss those of us that fell for the old Nintendo and still hold more adoration for that company.

Nintendo will obviously do what's best for Nintendo. The old-schoolers are an increasingly rare breed and Nintendo wants to move on. Many of the old schoolers have moved on to PlayStation/Xbox, picking up where Nintendo left them as teenagers, and want more titles suitable for them and their age and tastes. It's a tough pill for some to swallow...

But the perfect excuse to adopt Wii60 or PSWii... IF they can get past the mental block of "rooting for another city's team."

Billy's article is a mixture of partial fact and partial emotion. That's what fanboys often do, including here. He's still Nintendo to the bone, and that was very obvious to me when reading the article. If Nintendo committed to providing old-schoolers enough of the content they desire to keep them satisfied, and NOT just thrown occasional bones, there would be MUCH LESS "doom and gloom" from that crowd and the intarwebs would be a very different place. Sadly, there's no indication that it's forthcoming. But don't ever dismiss 'em. They have just as much of a right to a voice as "new-school" fans.  

[Ceric]

On the whole not liking the DS to start.  I was the first person in my town to own one.

[ShyGuy]

Blah, To the publishers money talks, cow poopy walks. That's what will determine support.

You know what I think these old harcore fans fear? Nintendo will succeed without them. Then they have to face some things about themselves.

Rick Powers is a bigger man for growing as a gamer.

[Artimus]

The thing I don't understand is the idea that Nintendo isn't going to make anymore great games. The DS, again, proves this. The DS is full of titles for new AND old audiences. I already own more games for it than any Nintendo handheld before (and want twice as many). Word from those who played it is that Mario Galaxy is potential the best Mario since Mario 3, or better. Zelda has the potential to be the greatest in the series as well. Then there's Smash Bros. and Metroid. All the major franchises. There is just no proof Nintendo is stopping anything. They are shifting their business model, yes, but they're not changing software priorities, they're expanding then. EAD1 isn't working on English Dictionary for Kids. They've expanded and they have tiny teams working on stuff like WiiSports and WiiMusic while the big teams do their work. If we actually get Mario, Zelda, Metroid and SSBM in the next year then that will be by far the biggest traditional Nintendo year EVER.

I just don't get it?

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim

Rick had it correct; Nintendo is not the same company anymore. Their changes are leaving the old-school behind. If you're enamored with the "new Nintendo," of course you have nothing to worry about. But don't dismiss those of us that fell for the old Nintendo and still hold more adoration for that company.

Honestly, i'd say it's more like the "old school" is leaving Nintendo behind. What does "old school" want? Isn't that fun games, games with "gameplay", games with character, etc... And now just because they don't do Hi-Def or DVD you'll pass on the games/system/company? I'd say it's "old-school" that has changed and wants to move on now / wants to dismiss Nintendo.

 

[Spak-Spang]

I actually believe Nintendo is making a turn back to oldskool gaming mentalities.

Look at the DS, it is revisiting the games we fell in love with in the first place, bring very traditional Nintendo gaming values back into focus.

1)Star Fox DS
2)New Super Mario
3)Yoshi's Island 2

On the Wii you have tons of classic traditional games from Nintendo being made and brought over.

1)Super Mario Galaxy appears to be capturing the magic of Super Mario 64
2)Wario Ware Smooth Moves is a more modern game, but its sensibilities are traditional gaming, simple pick up and play mechanics.
3)Excite Truck videos feel like a perfect arcade racer.

Hell even the "non-gamer" games are very traditional in gameplay nature.

The real truth is that games and gamers evolved and things became more complicated, and non being jaded we believe complex gameplay is traditional when in truth it isn't.

Look back at NES and SNES games you could teach ANYONE, how to play those games.  Jump to the N64 and Playstation generations and games began to become vastly more complicated to control and play.  As more and more features were added it became more and more complicated.  Now, Nintendo is making a play to bring gaming more traditional...more back to simple games.  That is a good thing.

[trip1eX]

The reason the article is retarded is that we've read this  same whining in these very forums for a year or two.  It's nothing new.  IT's sorta like he cut and pasted Ian Sane's (and friends) posts into a big long article.  

Some of you all act like Nintendo has to be #1 for you to feel good in the morning.  If so then you need to seek counseling.  

I have an  iMac.  I don't go about whining that Apple isn't number one.  I just enjoy my computing experience on it.

I recommend you all do the same or move on.  

Not old school?  I'm not sure what that means.  I think you all forget that your not 8 yr old kids anymore.  And it's you that's changing not Nintendo.  

Nintendo is releasing Zelda which seems as old school as anything.  On top of it they are going back and making an old school type of game in the form of ExciteTruck.  

I encourage all you that seem to be sick of Nintendo games to play other games.  

Also there's a bit of a conflict in your whining.  Some of you all seem depressed 'cause Nintendo hasn't been the #1 console the past 2 generations.  ON the other hand you're also whining that they are changing and leaving you behind.  ?  

I honestly think most of the whiners will whine no matter what.  If you don't see that now then you'll figure it out sooner or later.

[TerribleOne]

mehh.. u optimistic guys kill me... call it how it is not how it should be.. we cant judge it on how it will turn out to be because nobody knows that yet. the people complaining are just tired of nintendo's track record lately and please note: console market IS NOT handheld market, so stop mention the DS, nobody used the GBA for the GC or vice-versa. like it or not market share affects the games everyone gets. admit it, nobody cares about the green party and whoever wins the election gets to dominate and call the shots. and unfortunately it does seem that sometimes goin the "other way" hurts nintendo(cartriges, smaller discs, no online) and the people who have stuck to nintendo are tired of that.
the Wii should had just release at a $350 price tag with more power. admittedly or not you would had still gotten it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I've been playing games since, well, Asteroids on on Atari so I've been a Nintendo fan since the NES days. This is a whole new ballgame for NIntendo and that is why I don't want like to compare it to the past, because this is pretty much uncharted territory (and like I showed in my list there is some HUGE differences between how Wii has been handled and GC) especially when you have 3rd party games about as anticipated as the first party titles at launch. That is nothing to sneeze at, and anyone that disregards that isn't really doing their homework because that is a HUGE change from the past.

In response to terrible, I don't think it is that far off to compare Wii with DS's sucess. Nintendo had some stiff competition from their biggest competitor, Sony, and manage to completely destroy them in Japan and is beginning to pull away in America. PSP is vastly more powerful than Nintendo DS, but guess what? Nintendo managed to attract gamers and non-gamers alike with some fun, innovative and overrall, great games prooving that Sony's brand power isn't nearly as strong as originally thought. PSP had a marketing campaign behind that overshadowed Nintendo DS, even to the point of PSP being displayed out in the open with more accessories, games/UMDs, and more. This is even true to this day, just go into any electronics area and look for yourself. So yeah I don't see how it is so far off to compare Nintendo DS's sucess with Wii, they have a similar strategy, the price gap is close to being the same, along with going against a big brand name.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Billy, like Rick, like myself, and like others too (probably Ian?) are all old-school fans and, I think, just want nothing more than to say Nintendo has a fighting chance.

N64 had a lot going for it pre-launch and early in its life... "3D done right". The analog stick. The rumble pak that came a bit later. It was exciting hardware and it absolutely got gamers talking. But it still ultimately suffered similarly as the GameCube did. Wii is no guarantee despite the attention it's getting.

I know that the age range here is pretty wide, and the level of attachment is across the board, but to a lifetime Nintendo fan since NES, seeing them fail can royally suck. It's not unlike being a hardcore football fan and having a home team that can't get it together. Or seeing your favorite athlete lose his/her edge. Michael Jordan coming back, knowing that the magic of the glory years would never be reproduced. Or however you want to look at it. To some degree, they become a part of your pride if you are hardcore enough.

Rick had it correct; Nintendo is not the same company anymore. Their changes are leaving the old-school behind. If you're enamored with the "new Nintendo," of course you have nothing to worry about. But don't dismiss those of us that fell for the old Nintendo and still hold more adoration for that company.

Nintendo will obviously do what's best for Nintendo. The old-schoolers are an increasingly rare breed and Nintendo wants to move on. Many of the old schoolers have moved on to PlayStation/Xbox, picking up where Nintendo left them as teenagers, and want more titles suitable for them and their age and tastes. It's a tough pill for some to swallow...

But the perfect excuse to adopt Wii60 or PSWii... IF they can get past the mental block of "rooting for another city's team."

Billy's article is a mixture of partial fact and partial emotion. That's what fanboys often do, including here. He's still Nintendo to the bone, and that was very obvious to me when reading the article. If Nintendo committed to providing old-schoolers enough of the content they desire to keep them satisfied, and NOT just thrown occasional bones, there would be MUCH LESS "doom and gloom" from that crowd and the intarwebs would be a very different place. Sadly, there's no indication that it's forthcoming. But don't ever dismiss 'em. They have just as much of a right to a voice as "new-school" fans.

I've been a Nintendo-only fanboi since my Mom put a pen and paper in my hand at 3 and made me map the dungeons in Zelda for her. And I can't personally agree with you.

I define "Nintendo fan" completely different than you. You can like Nintendo games, but that doesn't make you a real Nintendo fan in my book, that just means you like the games they tend to make. You can like the NES and SNES and N64 and GC and Wii... but that doesn't make you a Nintendo fan. That just means that you've always seen fit to buy their products.

A Nintendo fan has to discover that their beliefs and their ideals are aligned with the company and spirit that is Nintendo. Not out of will, but because they find that they really believe in the same concepts and tenets by themselves, independently, as well. They have to study the Nintendo Philosophies, they have to be able to feel the thoughts and ideas and emotions that go into Nintendo games that exist beyond the vagaries of "fun." They have to follow the ways that Nintendo thinks, or misthinks, and they have to believe that Nintendo really, at its heart, will try to be a force for good for videogames, even though they can debate endlessly over whether the latest surprise is a mistep or not.

They don't have to believe that the Nintendo way is the only way. They don't even have to LIKE Nintendo games! What they like or don't like is not what makes you a fan, that's what makes you a consumer. You can own huge Sony and XBox (or Sega) libraries for all I care. It's what you FEEL that makes you a fan.

Nintendo has changed, and changed sometimes in big ways. But has Nintendo "left me behind?" Have I "outgrown" them? Have I "given up" on them, or gotten "tired" of this constant never-ending vigilance? Has Nintendo "failed to deliver" one too many times?

No, because every time Nintendo changes, I find that I actually change with them. Not because I want to be, but because as Nintendo grows, so do I. As Nintendo investigates new markets, so too do I consider them for the first time. As Nintendo takes risks, I find those risks the same risks that they must take, that I would take myself. And as Nintendo tries new things, I find myself trying new things too.

And these things don't have to be rationalized, they simply coincide perfectly. And when they go out of sync, I'm no longer a fan.

For instance, I used to have this same relationship with Blizzard but... *poof* I am no longer a Blizzard fan. Just like that, I stopped coinciding with them, I stopped believing in their ideology and their devotion, and I stopped growing with them and agreeing with them. And I was a Blizzard fan ever since I stayed up late at night at age 8 just to sit on a chair beside my uncle and watch him play the first WarCraft. Heck, I was a Blizzard fan even though I couldn't beat WCII and even though I SUCKED at RTS games. I was a Blizzard fan all through the development of WoW. I was such a fan that I would read up on and investigate all the items and instances and gameplay mechanics and details about raid instances I would NEVER enter, about accomplishments I would NEVER achieve, and about situations I would NEVER ever enter on my own.

And then one day, I just wasn't. *shrug* No drama or anything, I just no longer had synergy with the company that I held second only to Nintendo in my heart. I wish them all the best but... I really couldn't be bothered to care about them in any special way anymore.

But you know what? Nintendo has so far been an ever-renewing fandom for me. When I felt that Nintendo was fading on the cube, so too did Iwata feel it and take the actions to correct it. When I was just realizing my doubts about networked play and MMOs, so too did Nintendo share their doubts about online gaming. And when I was growing to love the most niche, small and quirky third-party games, along comes systems that seem tailor made to my life: the DS and Wii.

It's not that Nintendo has always been there for me. It's not that I've always been there for them. It's because Nintendo and I are so often there, together, independently, yet mutually, that makes me a fan. I don't believe Nintendo because I want to. I believe Nintendo because I believed it on my own before they did it.

Like with the Wiimote, I believed in trying to find a tactile way to interact with games before Nintendo even showed me the DS (though the best I could come up with was a "twist" controller).

ARGH. I RAMBLE> AAAARRRRRGGGHHHHHH>>>>..>>>.> I AM NOT COGENT KJJFOIJDAOKDSW#!KJODFJARFDQ

But anyways, I can't understand fans who are afraid of Nintendo leaving them behind. It's not a matter of Nintendo leaving them behind. Either a fan already believes what the company is doing, or they suddenly realize that they're not an innate fan at all. They're just interested and educated consumers.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

P.S. Care for some Kool-aid? It's grape flavored...

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
The thing I don't understand is the idea that Nintendo isn't going to make anymore great games. The DS, again, proves this. The DS is full of titles for new AND old audiences. I already own more games for it than any Nintendo handheld before (and want twice as many). Word from those who played it is that Mario Galaxy is potential the best Mario since Mario 3, or better. Zelda has the potential to be the greatest in the series as well. Then there's Smash Bros. and Metroid. All the major franchises. There is just no proof Nintendo is stopping anything. They are shifting their business model, yes, but they're not changing software priorities, they're expanding then. EAD1 isn't working on English Dictionary for Kids. They've expanded and they have tiny teams working on stuff like WiiSports and WiiMusic while the big teams do their work. If we actually get Mario, Zelda, Metroid and SSBM in the next year then that will be by far the biggest traditional Nintendo year EVER.

I just don't get it?

I am confused too, what exactly do these "old schoolers" want, I'm one and I'm estatic about Wii. It will probaly have one of the most diverse lineups of any Nintendo console around, they'll have casual games, "Hardcore" games, non-games, not to mention potential for some truly unique genres.

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: TerribleOne

the Wii should had just release at a $350 price tag with more power. admittedly or not you would had still gotten it.

Nintendo's next generation console at $350? I'd eventually get it, because I can't get Zelda, Metroid, Mario, and friends else where. But $350, even $300, and of course anything higher and I'd just stick with my DS until the console hit $250/$200.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: TerribleOne
mehh.. u optimistic guys kill me... call it how it is not how it should be.. we cant judge it on how it will turn out to be because nobody knows that yet. the people complaining are just tired of nintendo's track record lately and please note: console market IS NOT handheld market, so stop mention the DS, nobody used the GBA for the GC or vice-versa. like it or not market share affects the games everyone gets. admit it, nobody cares about the green party and whoever wins the election gets to dominate and call the shots. and unfortunately it does seem that sometimes goin the "other way" hurts nintendo(cartriges, smaller discs, no online) and the people who have stuck to nintendo are tired of that.
the Wii should had just release at a $350 price tag with more power. admittedly or not you would had still gotten it.

This is the difference between a Nintendo fan and a Nintendo consumer.

A fan actually doesn't care about market share and doesn't care about if other systems will have a better line-up of games. They believe in Nintendo's ideals and philosophies, and are willing to support that on principle because they truly believe in how gaming as an entire medium can be bettered by the Wiimote, or a touchscreen, or simple dedication to excellence in videogames or whatever else they're buying Nintendo for.

A Nintendo consumer is only interested in Nintendo insofar as they can personally benefit from the games collection that Nintendo will get them. This isn't bad. We all have money concerns and we all want to have actual fun and no long droughts. Some Nintendo fans even don't buy Nintendo consoles until years after launch because they need to be realistic and think like consumers. But that's where a consumer ends: they don't believe in the art of videogames in the way Nintendo does, and they don't believe that Nintendo is trying to improve that art, that medium, the very essence of what makes fun "fun."

Consumers believe that they'll get the most bang for their buck. Fans believe that videogames can be something more than that.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Hey Kairon I care about Nintendo's marketshare because I want to see more games on it and it would be nice to see Nintendo continue to be in the console business.  I'll probaly always get a new Nintendo console at launch, but I also try to look at things from a business perspective and what will help to benefit Nintendo the most.

[31 Flavas]

"A bussiness perspective"? Give me a break. You're looking at things from the "consumer perspective".

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: 31 Flavas
"A bussiness perspective"? Give me a break. You're looking at things from the "consumer perspective".

No because I want Nintendo to sell to the most consumers as possible, I want them to price their system at a mass market price in order to reap the rewards. Personally the price of the Wii, controllers etc isn't impacting me that much but I fear it may impact sales. If that isn't looking at things from a business perspective, I don't know what is. Believe it or not consumer sales does dictate how well a business does, so taking a consumers perspective on things is what you SHOULD do if you want to make a sucessful business. I love Nintendo and I want them to continue to grow and expand. Why do you think I thought Reggie bragging about profits was a big deal? Because it could look bad and thus hurt business for Nintendo (even their stocks ended up dropping 3%), so yeah I try to look at things from all angles, business (Since I am a Business Management major) and from a consumers perspective because they do relate.

[BigJim]

You are right, Kairon, we define "Nintendo fan" very differently.

You in summary say I'm not a real Nintendo fan because real Nintendo fans love whatever they do.

You, as a student of video games, have a wholly and completely different perspective, but still one which doesn't have authority to determine "realness" of other fans.

[TerribleOne]

Quote
Originally posted by: 31 Flavas

Quote
Originally posted by: TerribleOne

the Wii should had just release at a $350 price tag with more power. admittedly or not you would had still gotten it.

Nintendo's next generation console at $350? I'd eventually get it, because I can't get Zelda, Metroid, Mario, and friends else where. But $350, even $300, and of course anything higher and I'd just stick with my DS until the console hit $250/$200.

ok maybe 300... but still people would buy it like hotcakes.. nintendo fans would still get it one way or another and the wiimote would hav a huge sandbox to play in. what's the point in takin a risk if you wont maximize. however i think the problem in the iwata era is that the money driven decisions already made arent that easily justified. (because every decision is money driven.) and the old schoolers see through all the b.s..... I.E. the wiisport-budget title bundle supposedly being the reason it's $250.
those people defendin nintendo no matter what need to differentiate between good intentions vs smart intentions

[Kairon]

BigJim, I don't want to believe in Nintendo's position. I didn't want to believe in Blizzard's position. I just do..or did. Now I'm no longer a Blizzard fanboy, I couldn't care about them less... well.. maybe I'd care about them a little less if.... but I am still a Nintendo fan.

And I don't believe that everything Nintendo says is gospel. Instead, I believe that Nintendo is a kindred spirit who holds the same values as I do. I don't adopt my view of myself to whatever Nintendo says, I find that Nintendo's views have always been affirmed by my own personal observations.

But I just wanted to express my persional views on the subject. Yeah, with such drastically different definitions we really can't come to terms with it.

*shrug* I'll think on it some more.

Oh, and VG, I pay attention to marketshare too. It's just that as a Nintendo Fan, marketshare in and of itself is infinitely less important than idealism (as a fan, marketshare is only an indicator of how relevant Nintendo's ideas are to the world at large, an indicator of outsider buy-in rates). It only becomes of real import once you act as a consumer and have to determine the correct outlay of money. But as a Nintendo Fan, I'd have to express interest and investigate and digest and explore even the Virtual Boy, even though as a Nintendo Consumer I never bought one.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Ah ok Kairon, I see what you are saying. I would fall under the category of caring about marketshare only in that it does show how well Nintendo's ideas are being received (and I want them to stay in business!). For me, I care about both the business side and consumer side because what benefits Nintendo fianancially will benefit me, in that I continue to see some more amazing games from Nintendo! BTW I own a Virtual Boy lol, in fact I bought one back when the price dropped on it (I think I got it for 70$).