Topic: Wii Digital Audio??

[Ceric]

Pro that "Standard" I can seem to only find that article & references to that article.  have you seen any other? I'm always curious about those sort of things.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nada.  It seems to have come straight from the Taiwanese tech underground.

[Jin-X]

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Originally posted by: 31 Flavas
Give it a rest, the the 5 channels are discrete. Prologic 1 and earlier had matrix channels, but so does Dolby Digital ES. I know the marketing guys have done a really great job promoting and selling DD and DTS and the like, but the mystique surrounding the "DIGITAL" coax cable and optical cable really just is that, mysticism. Your standard Red and White RCA connectors deliver perfectly clean audio and DPLII is very capable.

But then again, i'm fighting against one of these "truths" so it's a losing battle from the start.

Yes, watching a DVD in pro logic II is the same as DD and DTS, sure thing. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Now Monster Cable, THAT'S mysticism, or snake oil as its called in the A/V world.

[Athrun Zala]

well, despite a slightly clearer channel separation (if the stereo source isn't encoded with DPLII in mind), and slightly clearer sound (although it only counts when the cables get too long), there isn't that HUGE difference that most seem inclined to believe (I blame that to marketing)

[hudsonhawk]

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Originally posted by: 31 Flavas
Give it a rest, the the 5 channels are discrete. Prologic 1 and earlier had matrix channels, but so does Dolby Digital ES. I know the marketing guys have done a really great job promoting and selling DD and DTS and the like, but the mystique surrounding the "DIGITAL" coax cable and optical cable really just is that, mysticism. Your standard Red and White RCA connectors deliver perfectly clean audio and DPLII is very capable.

You genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.

I think maybe you're just confused what the word discrete means, or maybe you don't even know how the formats work?  I'm not trying to be patronizing, but I keep rereading the post and it makes so little sense, and runs so contrary to reality that I'm not really sure where to begin.

I'm not sure who these nefarious, evil marketing guys are you're talking about, but it might interest you to know that DPLII came out well after DD and to a certain extent DTS were well-entrenched as standards.  So if these hideous moneystealing creatures that run around pulling wool over consumers eyes are guilty of anything, it's coming out with a new useless format after there was one already in place.

DPLII is fine for some applications; Tie Fighters wizzing by quickly, or bullet ricochets, or other fast, non-sustained sounds work well.  But if you need to convincingly image something else, like say a human voice, that's where the lack of channel separation kills the effect - because the surround channels have so much bleed into the mains, and because they're band pass filtered, the effect would be completely unconvincing.  

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the mystique surrounding the "DIGITAL" coax cable and optical cable really just is that, mysticism. Your standard Red and White RCA connectors deliver perfectly clean audio and DPLII is very capable.

I just... I'm not even sure how any reasonable person can say this.  RCA is wonderful.  It carries lots of important data in my system.  I'm not sure how else I would get the sound from my record player to my preamp.  It's neat!  

But one thing it can't do is carry 5 channels of discrete audio.  It just can't.  Calling that mysticism is like claiming that Firewire is just mysticism and that parallel is just fine for carrying data.  This isn't some conspiracy to get your money; it's a standardized form of digital transmission that people have been using for years.

Have you even listened to these formats or does is just make you angry that other people care about it?

[31 Flavas]

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Originally posted by: hudsonhawk

I'm not sure who these nefarious, evil marketing guys are you're talking about, but it might interest you to know that DPLII came out well after DD and to a certain extent DTS were well-entrenched as standards.  So if these hideous moneystealing creatures that run around pulling wool over consumers eyes are guilty of anything, it's coming out with a new useless format after there was one already in place.

I'll honestly try to be non-patronizing, as well, but I still think this is going to be pretty flamey. That said...

Do you know how DPLII works? Or do you just know it doesn't have 5 independant channels of audio? Granted, I don't have an engineering level of understanding it, but your statement about 'useless-ness' really speaks otherwise.

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But if you need to convincingly image something else, like say a human voice, that's where the lack of channel separation kills the effect - because the surround channels have so much bleed into the mains, and because they're band pass filtered, the effect would be completely unconvincing.

Uhm.. this is where Dolby made its name. The ability to create a center channel from stereo recordings is what centered the human voice. They use the same technique to create your "discrete" DD channels. Do you think the Hollywood movie makers are out there recording the audio with a 7.1 audio setup? No, they generate the channels from their recordings which maybe stereo or monophonic. Granted they can play around with things a little like quite the front audio and over emphasize the rear or vice versa, but the technique is the same as Pro Logic and earlier. DD just encodes to 5 independant channels, DPLII encodes all 5 channels into a stereo signal then seperates them. Either way both have 5.1 "discrete" indepenant channels on playback.

This idea that the Pro Logic is just some crappy useless inferior knock-off has got to stop. Are DD/DTS superior to DPLII? Of course, they are. Is there is enormous chasm of difference between the two? Salesmen and marketing aside, no.

I know i'm being quite a buzz kill here. It's like i'm putting ketchup on a hotdog in New York. But, really, you're not getting cheated by Nintendo not doing Dolby Digital.  

[hudsonhawk]

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Originally posted by: 31 Flavas


Do you know how DPLII works?

Yes.  I don't think you do though.

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But if you need to convincingly image something else, like say a human voice, that's where the lack of channel separation kills the effect - because the surround channels have so much bleed into the mains, and because they're band pass filtered, the effect would be completely unconvincing.

Uhm.. this is where Dolby made its name. The ability to create a center channel from stereo recordings is what centered the human voice. They use the same technique to create your "discrete" DD channels.

First off, your chronolgy is messed up.  Dolby Surround came first - it was stereo left / right and mono surround.  A few years later they came out with Pro-logic which added the center channel.  Dolby had "made its name" long before they added the center channel speaker.

Secondly, the whole reason I picked the example of the human voice here was very deliberate.  The surround channels are derived in a way that leads to a lot of bleed.  Therefore they have to be band pass filtered - basically anything above 7khz and anything below 100hz is cut out.  That's a pretty dramatic difference in frequency response.  A human voice would sound muffled and very different from how it would coming from the front 3 channels.  

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They use the same technique to create your "discrete" DD channels.

Not even close.  Dolby Digital has 6 distinct channels of information, recorded separately from one another.  If you were to carry that over RCA it would - and does - require using 3 pairs of RCAs.  It's a multi-track format.  

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Do you think the Hollywood movie makers are out there recording the audio with a 7.1 audio setup? No, they generate the channels from their recordings which maybe stereo or monophonic. Granted they can play around with things a little like quite the front audio and over emphasize the rear or vice versa, but the technique is the same as Pro Logic and earlier.

I can't read this paragraph without getting dizzy.  I'm not sure what you mean by that quesiton.  Do I think they record their movies with 7.1 in mind?  Well, yes.  Do I think they use magical surround sound microphones to acheive that?  No... as an audio engineer, I would guess that any given movie has hundreds of independent tracks that get mixed down to a final 7 and 2 track mixes.  From the 7 channel mix they probably derive the 7.1 and 5.1 mixes and then master them.  They don't just "play around" with things, they decide precisely where each sound will come from.  There is 100% channel separation because each track is 100% independent from one another.  Discrete, one might say.

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DD just encodes to 5 independant channels, DPLII encodes all 5 channels into a stereo signal then seperates them. Either way both have 5.1 "discrete" indepenant channels on playback.

Discrete and independent would indicate that it would have the ability to have a sound come from one and only one speaker.  This is not the case with DPLII.  I can't have something come from only the center channel and not the mains.  I can't have something come from only the rear left and not have it come from the front left.  This means they are neither discrete nor independent.

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This idea that the Pro Logic is just some crappy useless inferior knock-off has got to stop. Are DD/DTS superior to DPLII? Of course, they are. Is there is enormous chasm of difference between the two? Salesmen and marketing aside, no.

Who are these evil marketing people and why did they kill your puppy???

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I know i'm being quite a buzz kill here. It's like i'm putting ketchup on a hotdog in New York. But, really, you're not getting cheated by Nintendo not doing Dolby Digital.

The install base of Dolby Digital is significantly higher than that of DPLII.  The quality of Dolby Digital is significantly higher than DPLII.  Although the end result is similar - 5 speakers capable of making sounds that are different from one another - the quality of the experience is so vastly better with Dolby Digital that I not only feel cheated by the omission, I feel slightly insulted by it.
 

[Athrun Zala]

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Originally posted by: hudsonhawk
Secondly, the whole reason I picked the example of the human voice here was very deliberate.  The surround channels are derived in a way that leads to a lot of bleed.  Therefore they have to be band pass filtered - basically anything above 7khz and anything below 100hz is cut out.  That's a pretty dramatic difference in frequency response.  A human voice would sound muffled and very different from how it would coming from the front 3 channels.  

that's where I stopped reading

If you actually knew how DPLII works, you would know that you were actually talking about DPLI.....

[hudsonhawk]

Hmm, I stand corrected on that point; the band pass only kicks in if you put it in retro mode.  FWIW I had tried to verify the info before I put it in the post but got conflicting results.  I'm rereading the spec now and indeed you're right - it's full range.

I still stand by the fact that it still stinks due to the poor channel separation, steering artifacts, and the fact that it was a new format that served little purpose other than allowing the console manufacturers to cut costs.

[Pale]

Ok everyone.  Does every internet argument have to devolve to quote raping?  Here are the only facts that matter in this argument.

1.  Wii will support PLII
2.  Wii probably won't support Dolby Digital
3.  Dolby Digital sounds better than PLII
4.  If 1-3 bother you that much you should not buy a Wii.

There really isn't anything to argue here.  How much one might prefer Dolby Digital over PLII is completely relative to an individual's situation and audio system.  

[Ceric]

I agree with Pale on this.  Though I find some of the talk about the different standards interesting.

[Louieturkey]

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Originally posted by: Pale
Ok everyone.  Does every internet argument have to devolve to quote raping?  Here are the only facts that matter in this argument.

1.  Wii will support PLII
2.  Wii probably won't support Dolby Digital
3.  Dolby Digital sounds better than PLII
4.  If 1-3 bother you that much you should not buy a Wii.

There really isn't anything to argue here.  How much one might prefer Dolby Digital over PLII is completely relative to an individual's situation and audio system.

You left out the fact that the mass public would want DD or DTS over DLPII by a strong majority and not having DD will IMO(though the mass public may not notice) be a bigger blow to the system than no HD for the sole fact that it will be a pretty horrible dvd player without it.

[Nile Boogie]

"You left out the fact that the mass public would want DD or DTS over DLPII by a strong majority and not having DD will IMO(though the mass public may not notice) be a bigger blow to the system than no HD for the sole fact that it will be a pretty horrible dvd player without it."

That's exactly what I'm thinking. A DvD player without a true digital out is fail. Hell even the Panasonic Q had one (iirc).  I guess they don't want to pay the fees for the license to Dolby. Are we even sure about the format the Wii is using. I always read 8/12cm disc. No capacity or anything. Are these considered specs? Sercets remain.

[Pale]

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Originally posted by: Louieturkey

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Originally posted by: Pale
Ok everyone.  Does every internet argument have to devolve to quote raping?  Here are the only facts that matter in this argument.

1.  Wii will support PLII
2.  Wii probably won't support Dolby Digital
3.  Dolby Digital sounds better than PLII
4.  If 1-3 bother you that much you should not buy a Wii.

There really isn't anything to argue here.  How much one might prefer Dolby Digital over PLII is completely relative to an individual's situation and audio system.

You left out the fact that the mass public would want DD or DTS over DLPII by a strong majority and not having DD will IMO(though the mass public may not notice) be a bigger blow to the system than no HD for the sole fact that it will be a pretty horrible dvd player without it.

Please refer to point number 4.

[Athrun Zala]

well, one thing is for sure, IF the Wii is going to be a DVD player, it HAS to have a Dolby Digital Decoder. Obviously that doesn't mean that the games will be able to utilize it (because maybe it's software not hardware based).

I believe (Acrobat Reader isn't working right now, so I can't check) that DVD PLayers must have some form of DD output though....

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Originally posted by: hudsonhawk
Hmm, I stand corrected on that point; the band pass only kicks in if you put it in retro mode.  FWIW I had tried to verify the info before I put it in the post but got conflicting results.  I'm rereading the spec now and indeed you're right - it's full range.

I still stand by the fact that it still stinks due to the poor channel separation, steering artifacts, and the fact that it was a new format that served little purpose other than allowing the console manufacturers to cut costs.

then I'll reread your post, but somehow I still believe your basing your comments of DPLII on DPLI, because DPLII has great channel separation (yeah yeah not like DD5.1 blahblah, but if the material is encoded with DPLII in mind it's pretty damn fine), and be aware that DPLII has other uses besides cutting costs for console manufacturers.

[Mode7]

"You left out the fact that the mass public would want DD or DTS over DLPII by a strong majority and not having DD will IMO(though the mass public may not notice) be a bigger blow to the system than no HD for the sole fact that it will be a pretty horrible dvd player without it."

By now, it's largely evident that Nintendo will release some kind of dongle adaptor for the Wii that will allow DVD playback. Licensing fees for the MPEG (DVD), Dolby Digital, (and maybe DTS) capabilities, while not exceedingly high, are nevertheless another spot where Nintendo can cut costs and allow consumers to decide if they want this extra functionality. For such a dongle, there is no question that Nintendo will include decoders for the above technologies. And with digital audio support for DVD playback, it is only obvious to include an optical output jack. I fully believe Nintendo will do this. Heck, it can work just like the XBOX 360 HD-DVD add-on in that it hooks up through USB and has an extra USB port on the add-on itself to compensate for the used one.

[31 Flavas]

Well Nintendo specifically said before it would be an internal module. If that's what you mean by 'dongle'... Recently there has been discrepancy whether this would be an add-in module or come pre-installed/integrated in the system.

[ThePerm]

analog audio is better then digital audio always,

also for more info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic