Topic: Next Generation steps not leaps. My take on next generation graphical horsepower

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: wandering

'Move your left hand to the right' is easier to remember than 'push x while holding L and R'.

I've never been a fan of "push x while holding L" control setups to do something but I'd still rather streamline the game so each hand has a remote (one able to toggle between of the left hand of the character and free camera control, and the other remote always controlling the right hand of the character).  The nunchuck can't do that.

[ShyGuy]

How would you move your feet?

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I've always loved the idea of wielding dual Wiimotes and having your thumbs on the D-pads of each, controlling your lateral movement with the left one, your view of the screen with the right one (turning left/right and looking up/down) and then using both controllers as if they were guns.

You'd sell a lot of hardcore gamers as well as anime fans with that one alone.

Well, I'd assume that it would be very hard to control the remote with your non-dominant hand..

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution

Lol that is hilarious and sadly seems very close to truth as well.

Go back a couple of comics and read the "before and after" E3 comic

[Ceric]

Yeah... I find a lot of those hit right now when he leaves the confineds of the IGN office.
lol... I hadn't seen Bonus Level 7

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Baten Kaitos comes to mind and Tales of Symphony.  I was going to mention them but I didn't want stifle you.  Baten Kaitos I played through going from my HDTV to a SDTV with Coaxial and I found the text very hard to read on the SD.  I know Coaxial is the worse connection but you gave an example of it and I thought maybe if I had something I could reference it to that I've experienced before...

I have a new batch of comparison pics coming up.  But first, are you using a GameCube RF Adapter directly between GC and the TV?  Or, are you routing the GC thru a VCR or other modulator first?

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
How would you move your feet?

Either a dpad or the stick on a pistol shell.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

More comparisons.

Global Assumptions:  NTSC 720x480, 640x480 drawing canvas, 4:3 (fullscreen) ratio, No 16:9 (widescreen) mode


===Simulations

RED STEEL:  Most screens released have an unusually large resolution.  Is Ubisoft lying to us like they did last generation? I don't know.  But if there's a chance Red Steel does operate at a higher-than-standard resolution, there's a possibility we can benefit from decent anti-aliasing after downscaling.

480p, As you would see it on TV:
Red Steel 1
Red Steel 2
Red Steel 3
Red Steel 4

ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS GCN:  How I expect the GCN version to look, running at a normal rez with no anti-aliasing like previous 480p games.

480p, As you would see it on TV:
Twilight Princess 1
Twilight Princess 2


===Direct Screen Captures

Here are legit samples of S-Video VS. RCA(composite) VS. Coaxial(RF) I made.  Here are my connection schemes:

Svid:  GameCube(S-Video) ~To~ Vidcap Hardware
-- The best I can do.  A hint of color bleeding present makes it a couple steps short of 480p quality.
RCA:  GameCube(RCA) ~To~ Vidcap Hardware
-- Loss of saturation.  A shimmering scanline pattern causes the "dot crawl" phenomenon along object edges (noticeable in-person).
Coax:  GameCube(RCA) ~To~ VCR(coaxial) ~To~ Vidcap Hardware
-- Even less saturation.  Substantial noise present in addition to dot crawl.  Rapidly moving noise makes the image blurrier in-person than what is in the screen shot.

I do not have a GameCube RF Adapter.

Zelda: Wind Waker:  Good game to demonstrate even shades of colors, plus show the effects on text.
Wind Waker Coax
Wind Waker RCA
Wind Waker Svid

Tales of Symphonia:  More text plus cleavage.
Tales Coax
Tales RCA
Tales Svid

Resident Evil 4:  A last-gen game with lots of polygons and carefully drawn textures given its console's limitations.
RE4 Cutscene Coax
RE4 Cutscene RCA
RE4 Cutscene Svid
RE4 Gameplay Coax
RE4 Gameplay RCA
RE4 Gameplay Svid

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
More comparisons.

Global Assumptions:  NTSC 720x480, 640x480 drawing canvas, 4:3 (fullscreen) ratio, No 16:9 (widescreen) mode


===Simulations

RED STEEL:  Most screens released have an unusually large resolution.  Is Ubisoft lying to us like they did last generation? I don't know.  But if there's a chance Red Steel does operate at a higher-than-standard resolution, there's a possibility we can benefit from decent anti-aliasing after downscaling.

480p, As you would see it on TV:
Red Steel 1
Red Steel 2
Red Steel 3
Red Steel 4

ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS GCN:  How I expect the GCN version to look, running at a normal rez with no anti-aliasing like previous 480p games.

480p, As you would see it on TV:
Twilight Princess 1
Twilight Princess 2


===Direct Screen Captures

Here are legit samples of S-Video VS. RCA(composite) VS. Coaxial(RF) I made.  Here are my connection schemes:

Svid:  GameCube(S-Video) ~To~ Vidcap Hardware
-- The best I can do.  A hint of color bleeding present makes it a couple steps short of 480p quality.
RCA:  GameCube(RCA) ~To~ Vidcap Hardware
-- Loss of saturation.  A shimmering scanline pattern causes the "dot crawl" phenomenon along object edges (noticeable in-person).
Coax:  GameCube(RCA) ~To~ VCR(coaxial) ~To~ Vidcap Hardware
-- Even less saturation.  Substantial noise present in addition to dot crawl.  Rapidly moving noise makes the image blurrier in-person than what is in the screen shot.

I do not have a GameCube RF Adapter.

Zelda: Wind Waker:  Good game to demonstrate even shades of colors, plus show the effects on text.
Wind Waker Coax
Wind Waker RCA
Wind Waker Svid

Tales of Symphonia:  More text plus cleavage.
Tales Coax
Tales RCA
Tales Svid

Resident Evil 4:  A last-gen game with lots of polygons and carefully drawn textures given its console's limitations.
RE4 Cutscene Coax
RE4 Cutscene RCA
RE4 Cutscene Svid
RE4 Gameplay Coax
RE4 Gameplay RCA
RE4 Gameplay Svid

Once again, thanks for such awesome comparisons. I hope Red Steel looks like those pics in your link because it looks quite stunning!

[Berto2K]

i'm glad i imported that d-terminal cable to play pro-scan on my lcd monitor...or ran via s-video the rest of the time. my eyes would burn especially with Wind Waker.

[Deguello]

Pro666 continues to enlighten.  good poast.

[Ceric]

Pro666: Sorry, I didn't see your post yesterday.  Both.  But I found it was better to go through the adapter w/ RCA even though I had an S-Video option in the unit and the official GCN unit.

Through I am going to ask.  No component?  Not complaining.  I'm sure you just don't have the equipment, it's expensive.


Great work! I'll probably refer to this thread different times.

[SixthAngel]

I think most of the graphcis complaints are simply self fulfilling prophesies.  Everyone expects the graphics to be weaker so they look for more flaws and see them as weaker.

I bet that if someone here took an xbox360 game people hadn't heard of and posted it on anyboard claiming to be a Wii game it would get negative feedback about the graphics simply because people expect it to be that way.

[BigJim]

Very nice job, Pro.  

[Ceric]

I was going to post this in regards to what SixthAngel Said
But dang.  I didn't know much about Lost Planet.  Those are some nice looking screenshots.

[AnyoneEB]

Professional 666: Wow, that's a big difference. You are making me seriously consider getting an S-Video cable for my GCN.

Berto2K: How does the D-terminal hookup to your LCD work? I ran across a couple sites selling those when I was looking for a reasonably priced GCN component cable recently.

[JonLeung]

But wait, Pro, what about images of GameCube games using Component Output?  I use that.  I thought that was the best, but you don't even have that in your comparison!  Or am I mixing that up with something else you already put up there?

Good RE4 shots of Ada, there.  <3

[AnyoneEB]

JonLeung: Capture cards/boxes cost a lot more when you add component video input. It is quite reasonable that he simply does not own the hardware for it. I believe it is the best analog video other than HD-15/VGA (what computer monitors usually use).

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: AnyoneEB
Berto2K: How does the D-terminal hookup to your LCD work? I ran across a couple sites selling those when I was looking for a reasonably priced GCN component cable recently.

You will most likely have to get a gender adapter from you local computer store or Radio Shack which should run you a couple bucks.  But it goes from the digital out on the cube, the the VGA input on my monitor.  Thankfully my LCD has a DVI and VGA input so that I can leave my computer on and just switch the input selector.

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
But wait, Pro, what about images of GameCube games using Component Output?  I use that.  I thought that was the best, but you don't even have that in your comparison!  Or am I mixing that up with something else you already put up there?

Good RE4 shots of Ada, there.  <3

I belive Pro is capturing through his computer hardware, of which I don't thinkg he has component connections for with his hardware.  But yes, you are right, component is the highest quality option.

[Athrun Zala]

Quote
Originally posted by: Berto2K

Quote
Originally posted by: AnyoneEB
Berto2K: How does the D-terminal hookup to your LCD work? I ran across a couple sites selling those when I was looking for a reasonably priced GCN component cable recently.

You will most likely have to get a gender adapter from you local computer store or Radio Shack which should run you a couple bucks.  But it goes from the digital out on the cube, the the VGA input on my monitor.  Thankfully my LCD has a DVI and VGA input so that I can leave my computer on and just switch the input selector.

....oO....

the D-Terminal cable has a VGA connector?

[Berto2K]

Ya, the D-Terminal name comes from the Cube end of the cable.  The gender adapter will change it from Male->Female so that it will hook up to the monitor.  It should work with many CRT monitors as well.  You just disconnect it from your computer and connect the two cables together.

Its this cable here http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-24-49-en-70-ll.html.

[AnyoneEB]

Eek, price. Nevermind. It looks like it would be no cheaper than a component cable. I'll stick to waiting for a Wii + Wii component cable.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

If I had component/480p capture hardware, I'd provide legit, controlled examples.  It'd be possible to do it with simply a GameCube devkit.  Either way, they're both similarly priced -- god awful.


Notice around Ada's collar and left shoulder that the pixels aren't "perfectly" crisp.  And on the shoulder there's a glow of color along the edge, and it's not bloom lighting.   That's color bleeding, and its effect all over the screen is what still gives the S-Video shots a SMIDGEN of SOFTNESS.  A SMIDGEN.
Ada Wong Svid (same as prev)

A component video connection won't (should not) cause bleeding.  At 480p (and progressive scan in general), pixels would be well-defined and all the intended color would be displayed, as if your PC was generating the raw images and displaying it on your non-interlaced monitor.  When I say RAW I mean the original image frame that's generated before it undergoes any sort of TV-image conversion that a console would shove it thru.

Nintendo sucked at making screenshots throughout the Cube life cycle.  Their poor screenshots fueled misconceptions, kept them from becoming good liars, and limited their hype potential.  About once a year Nintendo was able to release a handful of high-quality, raw screen shots.

These are official GameCube screens Nintendo released as press material years ago.  They're RAW and unscaled (running at their real-life resolutions, not like phony high-rez Electronic Arts PS2 shots), which means this IS how they would appear on a TV running on a component(480p) connection.  The pixels are well-defined, with no softening/bleeding.  Compare this to the RE4 Svid shot.
RE4 Gameplay Svid (same as prev)
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 1 - 480p
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 2 - 480p
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 3 - 480p
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes 1 - 480p
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes 2 - 480p  

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
If I had component/480p capture hardware, I'd provide legit, controlled examples.  It'd be possible to do it with simply a GameCube devkit.  Either way, they're both similarly priced -- god awful.


Notice around Ada's collar and left shoulder that the pixels aren't "perfectly" crisp.  And on the shoulder there's a glow of color along the edge, and it's not bloom lighting.   That's color bleeding, and its effect all over the screen is what still gives the S-Video shots a SMIDGEN of SOFTNESS.  A SMIDGEN.
Ada Wong Svid (same as prev)

A component video connection won't (should not) cause bleeding.  At 480p (and progressive scan in general), pixels would be well-defined and all the intended color would be displayed, as if your PC was generating the raw images and displaying it on your non-interlaced monitor.  When I say RAW I mean the original image frame that's generated before it undergoes any sort of TV-image conversion that a console would shove it thru.

Nintendo sucked at making screenshots throughout the Cube life cycle.  Their poor screenshots fueled misconceptions, kept them from becoming good liars, and limited their hype potential.  About once a year Nintendo was able to release a handful of high-quality, raw screen shots.

These are official GameCube screens Nintendo released as press material years ago.  They're RAW and unscaled (running at their real-life resolutions, not like phony high-rez Electronic Arts PS2 shots), which means this IS how they would appear on a TV running on a component(480p) connection.  The pixels are well-defined, with no softening/bleeding.  Compare this to the RE4 Svid shot.
RE4 Gameplay Svid (same as prev)
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 1 - 480p
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 2 - 480p
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 3 - 480p
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes 1 - 480p
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes 2 - 480p

I always considered that a fresh approach about Nintendo, they always seemed to avoid exagerrating whether it be their screen shots or the system specs.

[JonLeung]

Component output is awesome, at first I didn't notice it.  Then I switched from component output to the standard RCA on-the-fly to compare and it was amazing.  I remember the difference in colour in the SSBM roster screen and the detail in the Soul Calibur II in-game artwork gallery.

I could stare at Ada all day in component output.  <3 <3 <3

I do find it stupid that with all these options available, the component output cable for the GameCube was pretty much only available via Nintendo's web site.  Even if they didn't think enough people would use it to make it worth having in stores, they really should've pushed the fact that it was an option (except for the newer-model GameCubes which supposedly don't have that).