Author Topic: Next Generation steps not leaps. My take on next generation graphical horsepower (Read 34076 times)

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #50 on:** August 14, 2006, 11:41:16 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Back on topic to Deg's request on HD games in non-HD conditions. I took an MGS4 pseudo widescreen shot (1024x576) and simulated its appearance on a "standard television". I used PaintShopPro for the effects and IrfanView for Lanczos Resizing (Lanczos downsizing is accurate in such a way that it provides a pleasant anti-aliasing effect -- NEVERMIND that, for that is just a generous side effect). What should be noted are the differences in quality with each successive downgrade.

Global assumptions: "Standard" NTSC TV, 720x480 max drawable rez, 640x480 console-rendering rez. 4:3 (fullscreen) ratio. No 16:9 (widescreen) mode. 4:3 480p allowable.

1. 480p, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system. Pristine picture clarity. Just like RE4-GCN at 480p, spec-wise, via component cables.
pic #1

2. 480i, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system. Slight loss of picture definition, slight loss of saturation. Negligible presence of noise. S-Video connection.
pic #2

3. 480i, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system. More loss of defintion, more loss of saturation. Noise is noticeable, dot-crawl is noticeable in-motion. RCA composite video connection.
pic #3

4. 480i, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system. More loss of defintion, more loss of saturation. Significant noise increase. Coaxial cable connection.
pic #4

Wow that is cool, too bad I can hardly notice much difference

. The game still looks quite impressive graphically even in the lower resolutions. I'm going to have to get each of those pics and put them side by side.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #51 on:** August 15, 2006, 08:38:57 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution What is qute funny about that is from what I hear the game that flaunts around the hundreds of enemies (99 Nights) has tremendous slowdown. Nothing more satisfying than fighting hordes of enemies while your gameplay slows to slideshow quality, so long live the "next generation" of graphics!

I've played the demo: the entire game consists of mashing the X button and dodging arrows (for some reason, the only thing that can REALLY hurt you)...just like Mystic Heroes and Dynasty Warrior before it.

...Except 99 Nights has a cute little mage, ensuring a lot of Xbox gamers will buy it just for the hope of a panty shot at some point in the game.

Hell, there's ALMOST one in the promo picture.

BigJim · « **Reply #52 on:** August 15, 2006, 09:11:11 AM »

For another sake of comparison, I took some screenshots from HL2: Episode One.

The pictures were taken on an ATI All-in-Wonder x1900. (The AIW x1900 card has the rough equivalent horsepower to x1800's, but with more pipelines). The photos were exported directly from the game and I made no alterations.

Below, the first shot was taken in 12x7 HD with all effects that the card allows on their highest recommended settings for the card. My LCD monitor doesn't support a full 1080, so I couldn't get "full" HD for a would-be PS3 comparison. So it's roughly 360's 720p.

For the second shot, if you want to fairly see what it looks like on a TV screen you have to blow it up to full screen. Settings are on low/medium.

1280x720 HD Effects on highest recommended settings for card.
640x480 SD Effects on low/medium settings.

And before anybody freaks out about "OMG low/medium settings for teh Wii you hat3r!" There's no chance the Wii has the same horsepower but just happens to lack HD... but I also did grabs of another scene, with details on high for both, anyway. Just in case you're one living in that fantasy.

1280x720 HD Effects on highest recommended settings for card.
640x480 SD Effects also on highest for card.

Draw your own conclusions, I was just curious myself to see what the difference would look like side-by-side.

Kairon · « **Reply #53 on:** August 15, 2006, 09:26:50 AM »

I think these monitor shots are really weird. But perhaps a title screen isn't the best place to get a graphics comparison shot?

I can't get the widescreen shots the same size as the sd shots to compare them, and the comp I'm on virtually guarantees a loss of quality due to resizing such that the SD looks infinitely better than the widescreen.

But aside from a little blurrier wall textures in MGS4 and the urge to adjust my tv/monitor's color, I seriously am unable to tell any meaningful difference between all those shots.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

BigJim · « **Reply #54 on:** August 15, 2006, 09:57:31 AM »

I don't know how familiar you are with HL2, but the title screens' backgrounds are real-time and indicative of the game itself. What you see is was you get in-game too.

Resizing in either direction results in loss or noise that wouldn't replicate in the real-world. HD shots the same size as SD defies the purpose of HD. Heh.

But subjectively speaking, since I am here jumping back and forth between an in-game 640x480 and a resized to full-screen 640x480 image (2 computers on an KVM switch), while not exact, the flaws are apparent. The quality difference is clear in comparison to a full screen HD shot.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #55 on:** August 15, 2006, 11:16:27 AM »

Because of my video work, I have my CRT monitor set display much like a standard TV at factory default settings. The thing about CRT TVs is, black is usually never "absolutely black", due to atmospheric light bouncing off the screen. Even when the TV is off, the screen isn't completely black, there's a hint of grey. So on my monitor, I adjust brightness/contrast to match that effect.

I also minimize glare in my room and tend to work at night time, making dark images on my monitor stand out better.

And I often stare 10-in from the screen when i examine details.

Setting one's resolution to 640x480 can help highlight the differences between the MGS4 shots.

Looking at shrunken 640x480 screens in a 1024x768 desktop isn't fair to SDTVs.

JonLeung · « **Reply #56 on:** August 15, 2006, 01:18:24 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
And I often stare 10-in from the screen when i examine details.

Would these "details" happen to be like, certain parts of Daisy? Hmmm?

Er...I mean, like Daisy's third eye. Yeah. Aheh.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #57 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:05:45 PM »

Every lickable curve on her.

Ceric · « **Reply #58 on:** August 15, 2006, 03:05:58 PM »

Hey Pro could I make a request. Could you do a Screenshot like that but with Text around the size you would have in an RPG conversation? I found going between the different connections on my Cube and the sizes hit those the most.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #59 on:** August 15, 2006, 04:54:01 PM »

Could you be more specific?

Any games come to mind?

Do you want to see aweful-playstation-style-i-can't-grow-out-of-the-SNES-era-RPG text?

Or do you want to see clean stylish text like you would get from Zelda or Tales of Symphonia?

nemo_83 · « **Reply #60 on:** August 15, 2006, 04:54:25 PM »

On Zelda's controls on Wii; ultimately, I will have to play it to know what works and what doesn't. The fishing seems pretty common sense, but the nunchuck's sensors are nothing compared to the remote's so I have no idea why they want to use the remote for shield attacks and the nunchuck for triggering sword attacks. The nunchuck functionality is just a fancy way of pressing a button.

I believe Miyamoto when he says that the next Zelda (after TP) will be a drastic departure from the format we have become accustomed to in 3D Zeldas. I think they are going to strip away a lot of stuff, simplify the title (get ready for another Wind Waker type shock moment), and push the remote to its limits.

On 360 games not playing any different from last gen. Well, no ****. It's the same damn controller.

Microsoft has been talking about making a new controller (think Halo 3 bundle), and the fans are afraid it will fracture the 360 market.

Ceric · « **Reply #61 on:** August 15, 2006, 05:50:43 PM »

Baten Kaitos comes to mind and Tales of Symphony. I was going to mention them but I didn't want stifle you. Baten Kaitos I played through going from my HDTV to a SDTV with Coaxial and I found the text very hard to read on the SD. I know Coaxial is the worse connection but you gave an example of it and I thought maybe if I had something I could reference it to that I've experienced before...

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #62 on:** August 15, 2006, 10:24:24 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
On Zelda's controls on Wii; ultimately, I will have to play it to know what works and what doesn't. The fishing seems pretty common sense, but the nunchuck's sensors are nothing compared to the remote's so I have no idea why they want to use the remote for shield attacks and the nunchuck for triggering sword attacks. The nunchuck functionality is just a fancy way of pressing a button.

I believe Miyamoto when he says that the next Zelda (after TP) will be a drastic departure from the format we have become accustomed to in 3D Zeldas. I think they are going to strip away a lot of stuff, simplify the title (get ready for another Wind Waker type shock moment), and push the remote to its limits.

On 360 games not playing any different from last gen. Well, no ****. It's the same damn controller.

Microsoft has been talking about making a new controller (think Halo 3 bundle), and the fans are afraid it will fracture the 360 market.

I think those of us who said that the games aren't playing any different on Xbox 360 meant gameplay not the controller, there has been little in the way of innovation and instead the same old gameplay formulas (which still can be alot of fun, but nothing has struck me as true "next-gen" gameplay).

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #63 on:** August 15, 2006, 10:25:39 PM »

Pro do you think you could possible make a set of screens like 1080i, 720p, and 420p side by side so you can compare the difference?

nemo_83 · « **Reply #64 on:** August 15, 2006, 11:36:51 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
On Zelda's controls on Wii; ultimately, I will have to play it to know what works and what doesn't. The fishing seems pretty common sense, but the nunchuck's sensors are nothing compared to the remote's so I have no idea why they want to use the remote for shield attacks and the nunchuck for triggering sword attacks. The nunchuck functionality is just a fancy way of pressing a button.

I believe Miyamoto when he says that the next Zelda (after TP) will be a drastic departure from the format we have become accustomed to in 3D Zeldas. I think they are going to strip away a lot of stuff, simplify the title (get ready for another Wind Waker type shock moment), and push the remote to its limits.

On 360 games not playing any different from last gen. Well, no ****. It's the same damn controller.

Microsoft has been talking about making a new controller (think Halo 3 bundle), and the fans are afraid it will fracture the 360 market.

I think those of us who said that the games aren't playing any different meant gameplay not the controller, there has been little in the way of innovation and instead the same old gameplay formulas (which still can be alot of fun, but nothing has struck me as true "next-gen" gameplay).

The smaller simulations in Nintendo's Wii Sports are what I believe are the beginnings of next gen gameplay. I just want those kind of straight forward control models coupled with epic game design. For example, Knights, using the remote to fly like the Airplane demo from E3 or a first person Star Wars where you reflect laser blasts with your saber using the remote like a raquet.

Bigger games like Metroid need to be simplified to work with the remote. Could the grappling beam not simply be built into the right arm? Could we not just get in Samus' ship, grab the flight stick and have some fun? The fewer commands they try and cram in there the fewer buttons needed and the less we have to think about the controller. The nunchuck sensors only complicate things giving players another mechanic they are not accustomed to. If I were making a shooter, one hand would hold a nude remote and one hand would hold a small pistol shell with a remote plugged in.

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #65 on:** August 16, 2006, 12:24:57 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
On Zelda's controls on Wii; ultimately, I will have to play it to know what works and what doesn't. The fishing seems pretty common sense, but the nunchuck's sensors are nothing compared to the remote's so I have no idea why they want to use the remote for shield attacks and the nunchuck for triggering sword attacks. The nunchuck functionality is just a fancy way of pressing a button.

I believe Miyamoto when he says that the next Zelda (after TP) will be a drastic departure from the format we have become accustomed to in 3D Zeldas. I think they are going to strip away a lot of stuff, simplify the title (get ready for another Wind Waker type shock moment), and push the remote to its limits.

On 360 games not playing any different from last gen. Well, no ****. It's the same damn controller.

Microsoft has been talking about making a new controller (think Halo 3 bundle), and the fans are afraid it will fracture the 360 market.

That sounds pretty neat, it would be great if NIntendo included a second Wiimote so companies will not be afraid to try that out!

I think those of us who said that the games aren't playing any different meant gameplay not the controller, there has been little in the way of innovation and instead the same old gameplay formulas (which still can be alot of fun, but nothing has struck me as true "next-gen" gameplay).

The smaller simulations in Nintendo's Wii Sports are what I believe are the beginnings of next gen gameplay. I just want those kind of straight forward control models coupled with epic game design. For example, Knights, using the remote to fly like the Airplane demo from E3 or a first person Star Wars where you reflect laser blasts with your saber using the remote like a raquet.

Bigger games like Metroid need to be simplified to work with the remote. Could the grappling beam not simply be built into the right arm? Could we not just get in Samus' ship, grab the flight stick and have some fun? The fewer commands they try and cram in there the fewer buttons needed and the less we have to think about the controller. The nunchuck sensors only complicate things giving players another mechanic they are not accustomed to. If I were making a shooter, one hand would hold a nude remote and one hand would hold a small pistol shell with a remote plugged in.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #66 on:** August 16, 2006, 07:26:53 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Pro do you think you could possible make a set of screens like 1080i, 720p, and 420p side by side so you can compare the difference?

It's "480p". There is no 420p.

I don't know of any modern game that runs in 1080i that actually takes advantage of the resolution. GT4 doesn't count.

And using a "side by side" comparison is flawed unless you had several monitors with the same screen dimensions running at the different resolutions. You need to show how the *smaller* pixels on the *same* viewing space make the difference. Otherwise, showing 1080 and 720 and 480 next to each other with same-sized pixels will only show that "hey, 480 is smaller than 720 is smaller than 1080".

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #67 on:** August 16, 2006, 08:22:21 AM »

I've always loved the idea of wielding dual Wiimotes and having your thumbs on the D-pads of each, controlling your lateral movement with the left one, your view of the screen with the right one (turning left/right and looking up/down) and then using both controllers as if they were guns.

You'd sell a lot of hardcore gamers as well as anime fans with that one alone.

Ceric · « **Reply #68 on:** August 16, 2006, 09:23:15 AM »

Yep when you set everything up like Pro says there is a noticeable difference between the Pic 1 and Pic 4 (I didn't download the rest for this.) Think New film versus Old film type of difference. Pic 4 looks grainy and the colors are subdued whie Pic 1 still looks to me like its full size brethren.

wandering · « **Reply #69 on:** August 16, 2006, 10:05:48 AM »

Quote
The nunchuck sensors only complicate things giving players another mechanic they are not accustomed to.

But once we become accustomed to it, I think said games will be easier for muscle memory related reasons. 'Move your left hand to the right' is easier to remember than 'push x while holding L and R'.

edit: spelling

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #70 on:** August 16, 2006, 10:49:41 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Pro do you think you could possible make a set of screens like 1080i, 720p, and 420p side by side so you can compare the difference?

It's "480p". There is no 420p.

I don't know of any modern game that runs in 1080i that actually takes advantage of the resolution. GT4 doesn't count.

And using a "side by side" comparison is flawed unless you had several monitors with the same screen dimensions running at the different resolutions. You need to show how the *smaller* pixels on the *same* viewing space make the difference. Otherwise, showing 1080 and 720 and 480 next to each other with same-sized pixels will only show that "hey, 480 is smaller than 720 is smaller than 1080".

Ah ok, sorry for the typo I meant 480p

.

Ceric · « **Reply #71 on:** August 16, 2006, 12:44:40 PM »

Cubetoons about Normal Mapping (Level 32)
Yeah...

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #72 on:** August 16, 2006, 12:50:36 PM »

Wii has "awesome mapping"

can't beat that. this is a message board. this is truth.

Ceric · « **Reply #73 on:** August 16, 2006, 12:54:41 PM »

All Hail "Awesome Mapping." It is the second coming. Better then other mappings... I shall write a Wikipedia entry about it and its founder Daisy now. (We all know that Daisy secretly runs Nintendo and always has.)

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #74 on:** August 16, 2006, 12:59:57 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Cubetoons about Normal Mapping (Level 32)
Yeah...

Lol that is hilarious and sadly seems very close to truth as well.

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Author Topic: Next Generation steps not leaps. My take on next generation graphical horsepower (Read 34076 times)