Topic: Next Generation steps not leaps. My take on next generation graphical horsepower

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: The Omen
I don't disagree that the Wii will preform fine graphically, albeit less 'fine' than the two power houses.  However, HD looks a lot better than standard res.  Of course, you could just play the "what I don't know won't hurt me" card that many seem to abide by, and that's okay.  But I for one have a very nice hd tv, and have seen HD programming, and HD games, and they are loads better than their standard counterpart.  Necassary?  No.  But neither was 3d, rumble, cd , dual analogs or shoulder triggers.  We shouldn't slag off HD just because Nintendo chose not to include it.  Just as we shouldn't dismiss the Wii because of it's lack of hd.

Well I personally find a smoother more crisp image to be much different from the jump to 3D or those other things you mentioned. HD is a relatively minor step in comparison to some of those. I've seen HD programming as well and I have to agree there, I do notice a fairly significant difference in that, but that is probaly because it is a leap from standard resolution instead of 480p or i to HD.

[JonLeung]

The Wii can do at least component output, right?  Can I use the same component output cables (that I had to buy online from Nintendo) that I use for my GameCube?

If not, I hope I don't have to order component output cables online again, unless I can be sure to get them before launch.  I'd hate to show my anti-Nintendo friends the Wii on the first day and show them that its graphics aren't even as bright and sharp as my GameCube's.

[Smash_Brother]

The most argument I've seen for graphical horsepower is that the games can include hundreds of enemies on screen at once...

...and yet I've seldom seen a game which includes this type of gameplay and doesn't suck.

Dead Rising was good because of the survivor saving system and the storyline. The hordes of similar enemies which you have to hack your way through don't add much to the game because once you've sliced one zombie in half, you've already experienced the best killing blow the game has to offer.

In fact, pull out the zombies entirely and replace them with one of the cooler foes from Resident Evil, like the lickers or hunters, just in fewer numbers and which would require more depth and interactivity to kill and, IMHO, the game would have been immensely better.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Does the value justify the cost?

NAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Save your cash and spend it on MORE Wii games and cheeseburgers.

~~~~~

VIDEO GAME ENVIRONMENTS ARE LIKE HOUSES.

IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW BIG THE HOUSE IS, NOT REALLY HOW MANY ROOMS THERE ARE, NOT REALLY HOW DETAILED THE WALLS AND FLOORS ARE CRAFTED -- IT'S HOW YOU FURNISH IT.

LUSH CARPETS, PRETTY WALLPAPER AND GLASS CEILINGS ARE... "NICE."
AND YOUR FAMILY ROOM DOESN'T NEED 2,000 CHAIRS, 500 COFFEE TABLES, AND GLOSSY MARBLE SURFACES.

IT'S ABOUT THE OBJECTS INSIDE THAT YOU CAREFULLY CHOOSE, THINGS THAT ARE PRACTICAL, THINGS THAT YOU WILL ACTUALLY USE.

YOU ASK YOURSELF, WHAT ASPECTS ARE ACTUALLY MEANINGFUL TO THE GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE?

-THE SELECTION AND ARRANGEMENT OF YOUR FURNITURE.

[nemo_83]

There is a similar thread on Wii being a peripheral on the 1up boards that's six pages right now; I'm sure when Luke Smith responds it will jump to nine.  

The following quote from Keita Takahashi (Katamair Damacy) was eventually brought up.  


"GS: What do you think of the Wii?
KT: I'm not really interested in it. I don't think a controller should have that much influence on the enjoyment of games. I see what [Nintendo is] trying to do, but they're putting such emphasis on the controller; 'Woah, this controller lets you do this!' and I'm thinking - are you messing with us? So, there's nothing I really want to do with it right now."



The problem with the above statement is that whether your controller is revolutionary or total rehash the transparency of the interface will have a direct influence on the enjoyment of your game.  The N64 proved that something new like analog control can create that raw wow moment (unfortunately I see no Mario 64 type game on the Wii that puts the remote to brilliant use).  

The Wii's interface has the potential to make some games that I'd normally not even glance at (like tennis) sound fun, but thus far the real games they have tried to make with it have fallen on their faces.  They have failed to prove the remote works for traditional games.

Noone is going to argue that Twilight Princess will not be a polished epic adventure with gigantic bosses, skull fuker puzzles, and nonlinear level design; but the game is also going to control like complete shyt with the remote and that will ruin the enjoyment of the game.  It's not like Tennis where you know right away what to do.  Instead, in Zelda, you have to learn how they want you to use the remote abstractly and context sensitively for all kinds of totally different crap (you don't do what would make sense like swing the remote to swing the sword).  You can't look at the controller and know right away what to do in Zelda (once again, like Tennis) and that defeats the whole purpose of improving the controller so we can think about it less.  Instead of making it easier for players to forget about the controller many of the Wii games do quite the opposite and I think that is what KT meant to say.
 


on price: I think that if Wii has a fifth the bandwidth of 360, maybe it should cost one fifth the 360.  

I feel more money goes into making the Wii small than making it powerful.  It's the same thing with PSP, at a certain point, you aren't paying for power anymore but rather getting the power down to a portable size.  But taking that portable hardware strategy and applying it to a console is like saying we need big console software on portables.  Noone wants to play console games on a portable (that is why the DS is kicking PSP's unholy ass).  The same goes for portability in consoles (the only time size becomes an issue with consoles is when it's a quarter the size of my minifridge, PS3).

[Ceric]

Oh wait... Last I checked no one could affordably get an internet connection that could max out 802.11B but I might be mistaken.
I like Cheeseburgers.
Also it's too early to tell if there is any game that sells the controller really yet till we use them.  That goes for the PS3's controller as well.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nemo, you make it sound like the analog stick had no learning curve.  When most people (YES, GENERALIZATION) picked up Mario 64 for the first time, they just RAN AND RAN AND RAN AND RAN, not realizing the benefits of analog sensitivity, and treating it more like an arcade joystick.

The analog stick was "transparent" as you would argue probably because it's use was still limited to "Move here.  Move here.  Move there."  -- character traversal.  The Remote goes beyond that, more like it focuses on new avenues of control rather than simple character traversal.  Analog sticks are already great for character movement, hence we left the "simple" jobs to the Nunhaku.  But the Remote is about new possibilities, and therefore involves a different learning curve.

The simple games will be simple to pickup because Nintendo has done reasonably well with instructions and hand-holding this GC gen compared to the N64 gen.  And I'm sure people can follow on-screen instructions.  Learning to use the Remote may possibly be easier than "analoging" for the first time.  When my friend tried out Ocarina of Time for the first time, she couldn't stay on the little bridge in the middle of Koriki Village without jumping off suddenly.  And when she tried archery, she was ALL OVER THE PLACE.  Talk about opaque.

The analog stick was sitting on top of 2 previous generations of "push this way to run" gameplay.  Yeah it was obvious to seasoned gamers what they had to do.  And hence many genres stayed intact, many games that were made were still about moving characters to some location, steering, or aiming (as what happens a large % of the time in actiony games).  MANY of the Wii games demo'd at E3 included BEAUTIFUL tutorials before allowing the person to start playing.  When I was at Nintendo's booth at E3 2001, HARDLY ANY of the GameCube demos had any bit of instruction whatsoever.  They assumed we already had an idea how to play.  That was related to the continuation of previous generations' control fundamentals -- and hence the repetoire of mechanics and genres presented were not much different from previous years.

That is in STARK CONTRAST to the mechanics and genres lined up for Wii's launch.  It's exciting.  What new mechanics did analog gaming help allow for in the past 2 generations?  Aiming, and Super Monkey Ball.

I'd like to believe players can follow on-screen directions.  I'd like to believe players can "forget about the controls" once the mechanics are pointed out to them.

The Remote already works for traditional games.  Racing?  We've got ExciteTruck to show us that, and it worked.  Traditional gameplay in Zelda?  Metroid?  Red Steel?  NO PROBLEM.  Enter the Nunchaku.  Push the analog stick, the character walks.  BAM -- THAT WAS TRADITIONAL, AND IT WORKS.  Need buttons?  The Remote has buttons.  BAM -- THAT WAS TRADITIONAL TOO, AND IT WORKED.  I don't know much more traditional you can get than "Zeruda" with its "push this direction to walk and tap this button to murder things" gameplay, but the Remote+Nunchuck already has it covered.

"Walking slowly" was not transparent, and "steady aiming" was not transparent.  More like an accident.  The analog was just the latest in the long dynasty of up-down-left-right control gizmos that told your character to where to move.  That transparency wasn't a benefit of the analog, we were just conditioned to expect Mario(64) to move when we pushed a particular direction, and we were pleasantly surprised/relieved that fundamental mechanic HAD NOT CHANGED -- but things have been that way ever since PACMAN.  Analog sensitivity condirations by the player required considerable adjustment and practice, BUT we were still practicing within the confines of old objectives: push this way to run this way.

Nunchaku and D-pads satisfy traditional gameplay.  The Remote satisfies new dimensions of gameplay.

If there was a control method to compare the Remote to, it's the first arcade joysticks.  Why?  Cuz their intentions were undeniably new.

~~~~~

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGHH I FELL FOR THE TRAP!!

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

I just finished my Wendy's for lunch and I'm at work.

[Kairon]

Mark Bozon of IGN has similar sentiments VGrevolution.

And he has screenshots

Seriously, only graphics whores could complain about these shots. I seriously can't tell much of a difference between them.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
thus far the real games they have tried to make with it have fallen on their faces.  They have failed to prove the remote works for traditional games.

...

Noone is going to argue that Twilight Princess will not be a polished epic adventure with gigantic bosses, skull fuker puzzles, and nonlinear level design; but the game is also going to control like complete shyt with the remote and that will ruin the enjoyment of the game.

...

Can you mail me your advance copy of TP when you're done playing it please?

Quote
on price: I think that if Wii has a fifth the bandwidth of 360, maybe it should cost one fifth the 360.  

It does. It's just that Microsoft is hiding the bulk of that cost in their own red ink.

MS lost $6 billion last gen just for an XBox that was made using purely
off-the-shelf
mass-mass-produced
multi-use
year-old
without-research-costs
technology.

Can you imagine the bundle that they're losing now with custom designed tech and actual research going into it?

Analysts have guessed the X360's real price at around $700, but today it's most likely nearer to around $500, and that's being optimistic in my opinion.

I think the Wii is turning out to be priced very responsibly.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[AnyoneEB]

JonLeung: The Wii will have a different connector instead of the GameCube's two separate connectors (there's pics). I am pretty sure Nintendo said that all games will be 480p, but at the very least I assume the studios which have been making 480p games will continue to do so. As the the cables... I really hope the Wii component cable (or even VGA/DVI, maybe?) will be sold retail. I am currently really annoyed that I did not buy a GCN component cable at launch and now I cannot find one for less than $45.

Ceric: You are right that most consumer internet connections do not max out 802.11b, but Optimum Online (CableVision's internet service) is 10/1 or 20/2 (megabits down/up) depending on how much you pay. That is definitely more than 802.11b can handle (11 megabits peak). On the other hand, gaming does not require anywhere near that much bandwidth and if downloads are done overnight via WiiConnect24, speed is not a big deal either.

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Nemo, you make it sound like the analog stick had no learning curve.  When most people (YES, GENERALIZATION) picked up Mario 64 for the first time, they just RAN AND RAN AND RAN AND RAN, not realizing the benefits of analog sensitivity, and treating it more like an arcade joystick.

I believe the stick was an easy transition (at least for myself).  I just ran around in the court yard for a while playing with my new found sensitivity; it was fun just playing with it and being able to tip toe.  It was easier than learning to drive a car.  Mario 64 got the analog stick right the first try for character movement (even today it is a standard that games like GTA can't meet).  However, sticks were never accurate enough for things like aiming in first person.

The problem I see is there is not a traditional game for the Wii that says, this is how you do it.  It's like the DS; we're going to be wading through experiments for the first two years.

Look at Metroid Prime 3: as immaculately as the adventure may be plotted out, the controls create more problems than they solve (at least with an analog stick the crosshair was fixed like in PC shooters).


"Can you mail me your advance copy of TP when you're done playing it please?"

Come on, did you not read the E3 impressions?  The game was made for a pad.  Or are you arguing the game design won't be genius as usual?  

[wandering]

Quote
Look at Metroid Prime 3: as immaculately as the adventure may be plotted out, the controls create more problems than they solve (at least with an analog stick the crosshair was fixed like in PC shooters).

I dunno, I kind of believe the people who said aiming with the wiimote was better than aiming with an analog stick.

Quote
Come on, did you not read the E3 impressions? The game was made for a pad. Or are you arguing the game design won't be genius as usual?

I dunno, I kind of believe Miyamoto, who said he can't go back to playing the game on the cube.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Mark Bozon of IGN has similar sentiments VGrevolution.

And he has screenshots

Seriously, only graphics whores could complain about these shots. I seriously can't tell much of a difference between them.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Seriously, Rogue Leader (ref: GameCube 1st gen) brings more to the table than any of those flight games.

And thus I refer back to my "furniture" idea.  Each of those flight games is an empty, lonely house.

Like last gen's launches, it appears the industry has to wait for Nintendo to show everyone what it means to take advantage of new hardware.  It's not about adding bells and whistles -- those are expected cuz they're easy to implement:  pay for upgraded hardware, stuff it into your new console and VWUHLAH! we have people claiming superiority as soon as they see the numbers on the spec sheet are bigger than yesteryear's.

Furniture, people.  You're sitting on it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Mark Bozon of IGN has similar sentiments VGrevolution.

And he has screenshots

Seriously, only graphics whores could complain about these shots. I seriously can't tell much of a difference between them.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Interesting article, and I definately agree with him. Also like him I really do like my Xbox 360 but also like him I feel like I'm playing the same games, some of which don't look or feel that much different! When I hear discussions of graphics and what is good and what isn't, I tend to roll my eyes. One recent example of this was Prey for the PC, I thought the graphics were quite stunning and some of the best I've ever seen, then I read how people say how they aren't that great. I guess I have become very disgruntled with the graphics obsession and don't care to notice all the minor details if a game runs smooth and looks decent.

To Nemo about the analog stick, I know for me it took awhile to get the hang of it. With the Wii mote I'm fairly certain you will see a similar learning curve, and I believe some of this fear is not justified since people did not get much time to spend on the Wii at E3. Things should be much different in the home where you are in a comfortable enviroment where you can spend all the time you want.

[Ceric]

Times of Experiments can be pretty fun.  In fact I seem to be into that early face more then the later phase now.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"I feel like I'm playing the same games"

Then you're being cheated and ripped off and should sell your 360 to someone so they can experience it break and they can go thru the trouble of replacing it.

[Athrun Zala]

Pro, you rule ^^

I agree with what you said, and nice analogy with the furniture (maybe you should tell that one to Kojima )

[IceCold]

Quote
I dunno, I kind of believe Miyamoto, who said he can't go back to playing the game on the cube.

Yeah, I was against the idea of Zelda being turned into a Wii game from the beginning, but my faith in Miyamoto overrides this. If anyone can do it well, Nintendo can..

[SixthAngel]

Since Wii has a similar architecture to the gamecube we should also be able to expect more games by Nintendo this gen then last.  They don't have to spend all that time getting used to it again unlike other upcoming consoles.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Since Wii has a similar architecture to the gamecube we should also be able to expect more games by Nintendo this gen then last.  They don't have to spend all that time getting used to it again unlike other upcoming consoles.

That is a good point, I never really thought of that!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
"I feel like I'm playing the same games"

Then you're being cheated and ripped off and should sell your 360 to someone so they can experience it break and they can go thru the trouble of replacing it.

I still have Dead Rising and PGR3! Even though neither game feels like a true "next generation" title they are still fun. When I bought my Xbox 360 I got it more for the great games coming out, even if the experiences are similar to the old Xbox.  Then again you may have a point with shoveling it off to someone so they can experience it breaking (which should be a fairly new experience).

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The most argument I've seen for graphical horsepower is that the games can include hundreds of enemies on screen at once...

What is qute funny about that is from what I hear the game that flaunts around the hundreds of enemies (99 Nights) has tremendous slowdown. Nothing more satisfying than fighting hordes of enemies while your gameplay slows to slideshow quality, so long live the "next generation" of graphics!

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Back on topic to Deg's request on HD games in non-HD conditions.  I took an MGS4 pseudo widescreen shot (1024x576) and simulated its appearance on a "standard television".  I used PaintShopPro for the effects and IrfanView for Lanczos Resizing (Lanczos downsizing is accurate in such a way that it provides a pleasant anti-aliasing effect -- NEVERMIND that, for that is just a generous side effect).  What should be noted are the differences in quality with each successive downgrade.

Global assumptions:  "Standard" NTSC TV, 720x480 max drawable rez, 640x480 console-rendering rez.  4:3 (fullscreen) ratio.  No 16:9 (widescreen) mode.  4:3 480p allowable.


1.  480p, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system.  Pristine picture clarity.  Just like RE4-GCN at 480p, spec-wise, via component cables.
pic #1

2.  480i, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system.  Slight loss of picture definition, slight loss of saturation.  Negligible presence of noise.  S-Video connection.
pic #2

3.  480i, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system.  More loss of defintion, more loss of saturation.  Noise is noticeable, dot-crawl is noticeable in-motion.  RCA composite video connection.
pic #3

4.  480i, "fake" widescreen mode -- frames drawn at 640x360, with letterbox drawn-in by game system.  More loss of defintion, more loss of saturation.  Significant noise increase.  Coaxial cable connection.
pic #4

EDIT:  More noise added to Pic#4 for greater accuracy.

[Deguello]

Fantastic.  Thanks.

[IceCold]

Yeah, thanks Pro; that's wonderful..