Author Topic: Sony getting hit Hard lately  (Read 867261 times)

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Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1075 on: December 05, 2006, 10:36:33 AM »
The PS3 is of the Devil....


Also from the IGN article
Quote


Unlike music CDs, which allow users to create back-up copies for personal use, Blu-ray and DVD movies carry express copyright laws forbidding any form of duplication. Even ripping a Blu-ray disc to a PS3 for your own enjoyment is in violation of these laws.


Thats how Nintendo can also make it illegal for you to have backups.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1076 on: December 05, 2006, 11:04:56 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
Also from the IGN article
Quote


Unlike music CDs, which allow users to create back-up copies for personal use, Blu-ray and DVD movies carry express copyright laws forbidding any form of duplication. Even ripping a Blu-ray disc to a PS3 for your own enjoyment is in violation of these laws.


Thats how Nintendo can also make it illegal for you to have backups.

That statement is not backed up with any reference to laws or contractual agreements, not to mention oddly worded, so I don't know where they're getting that idea from, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and call it utter nonsense.

Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1077 on: December 05, 2006, 12:04:47 PM »
I found this article interesting.
Ten big myths about copyright explained

PartyBear I've been scouring for a while trying to find some place that says that I have a right to have a backup copy.  So far I haven't found one.  I was just sort of wondering if you had one.

Actually I just found it.  US Copyright Law.  Though its with regards to this part.  I think they can get around this by stating there isn't a need for backup.
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1078 on: December 05, 2006, 12:22:31 PM »
As I'm sure you all know the buzzword is that the recent shift in Sony management suggests Sony moving from hardware to software (where have I heard these arguments before??) I scanned the past posts (I've been gone for a while vacations are nice) and didn't see anything about it.

Personally I think management shift may help Sony. The dude who got replaced (I'm bad with names and don't feel like googling I'm about to go out for the night and don't want to waste the time, although I just wasted a bunch of time typing this stupid parenthesis statement) was all about making a supercomputer, the dude running the show now is more focused on games. Games are what is important, thus maybe Sony is hearing the cry of its gamers after all.

The hype of a big bad powerful PS3 is still strong despite its recent failures even in the minds of those who actually read video game news, they're looking forward to Lair... of all F'N games Lair? Give me a break. Anyway.

I don't want to start a poll so I'll phrase my inquiry this way; What would it take for Sony to not make a PS4, is it even a possibility that they won't make a PS4?
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Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1079 on: December 05, 2006, 01:18:45 PM »
I'm sorry but why would a hardware company that has never been particularly good at Software to began with go to Software only?
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Offline Sir_Stabbalot

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1080 on: December 05, 2006, 01:25:40 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Quote

Originally posted by: stevey
PS3 cause death toll rising


"Strickland's dog, a German shepherd, also was shot to death."

Jesus Christ...

Anyway,  I assume the officers assumed the controller in his hand was a gun, when they broke the door down, and then opened fire on account of it. I have no idea how the dog was shot though, unless they were using some automatic weapon or something that happend to spray the area with shots.


Dogs don't like it when someone attacks their owners or someone they know. Heck, my dog flips out if someone shakes hands. She's only a 13 pound terrier, so she can't do any damage, but I could easily see a German Shepherd trying to defend its master and getting shot by police.
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Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1081 on: December 05, 2006, 01:33:21 PM »
Where I lived the police shoot a dog and it was national/almost international news.
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1082 on: December 05, 2006, 03:25:34 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
I'm sorry but why would a hardware company that has never been particularly good at Software to began with go to Software only?


Because an analyst said so! don't you know how right these guys always are?

Quote

Analysts said that Mr Hirai’s promotion to a global role at SCE could mark a critical shift in management thinking, with Sony changing its emphasis so that the current generation of games console will be its last as a hardware manufacturer.

“The appointment of Hirai could be the start of a shift from hardware to software,” said Yuta Sakurai, an analyst at Nomura. “I cannot now imagine a PlayStation4.”

Mr Sakurai said that Mr Hirai’s new global portfolio puts a predominantly software-focused manager in charge of the company, adding that SCE’s future would be shaped by Mr Hirai’s relationship with Phil Harrison, the president of SCE’s worldwide studios.

Analysts argue that while Mr Kutaragi, a brilliant engineer, was the right man to run SCE as a hardware powerhouse, Sony may now see better opportunities as a pure maker of games.

.


Link

Google (or Yahoo! which is what I like to use) no ps4, the story is making headlines, no matter how farfetched it is. I tend to disagree with the statements, but it makes me somewhat happy to see people's faith in Sony failing.
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Offline Ceric

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1083 on: December 05, 2006, 03:34:00 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: MaryJane

...

Because an analyst said so! don't you know how right these guys always are?

Quote

Analysts said that Mr Hirai’s promotion to a global role at SCE could mark a critical shift in management thinking, with Sony changing its emphasis so that the current generation of games console will be its last as a hardware manufacturer.

“The appointment of Hirai could be the start of a shift from hardware to software,” said Yuta Sakurai, an analyst at Nomura. “I cannot now imagine a PlayStation4.”

Mr Sakurai said that Mr Hirai’s new global portfolio puts a predominantly software-focused manager in charge of the company, adding that SCE’s future would be shaped by Mr Hirai’s relationship with Phil Harrison, the president of SCE’s worldwide studios.

Analysts argue that while Mr Kutaragi, a brilliant engineer, was the right man to run SCE as a hardware powerhouse, Sony may now see better opportunities as a pure maker of games.

.


Link

Google (or Yahoo! which is what I like to use) no ps4, the story is making headlines, no matter how farfetched it is. I tend to disagree with the statements, but it makes me somewhat happy to see people's faith in Sony failing.


You know I bet you that analyst is in New York, New York.  I just got done kicking New York, New York out of the Union.  Therefore he no longer counts.

I could see them getting out of Gaming Hardware.  They day that Sony no longer makes Hardware.  Is the day that Microsoft starts making a line of OS X running PCs.

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1084 on: December 06, 2006, 01:35:19 AM »
PartyBear, Ceric: The copyright law in question is the Digital Millenium Copyright Act that makes it illegal to circumvent a copy restriction for any purpose. Making a backup is legal but DVDs have a (very ineffective) coüpy restriction system you have to circumvent to make a copy so it's illegal. Same goes for the HD discs, I presume.

A company can't tell you backups aren't needed, because that's pure bullshit but they can exploit the DMCA to prevent them.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1085 on: December 06, 2006, 02:58:25 AM »
What I was primarily taking issue with is the silly disclaimers in instruction manuals and such that try to limit what you can do.  These have no power.  Only copyright law and contractual agreements you enter into have any bearing on what you can and can't do.

Offline Ceric

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1086 on: December 06, 2006, 08:55:22 AM »
And by playing the game you agree to abide by there rules.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1087 on: December 06, 2006, 10:04:52 AM »
What?  No, I don't.  There's not even anything to agree to.


But, hey, how about that Sony, eh?  Getting hit hard lately, right?

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1088 on: December 06, 2006, 10:26:46 AM »
On the topic of Sony possibly selling software, the company has 30 million-sellers in North America (link) putting it way ahead of Capcom, Konami and probably most other Japanese devs except Nintendo.  It also has 14 million-sellers in Japan, still higher than Capcom's 9.

Without its own console to sell those games on I think sales would drop, but still, Sony could make good money from software alone.
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Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1089 on: December 06, 2006, 02:03:54 PM »
Sony Published Mickey Mania.
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Offline capamerica

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1090 on: December 06, 2006, 03:33:36 PM »
include this in the idea that Sony could go software only.
Sony has been axeing Hardware devisions and more of their money is coming from games, software, movies and music.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1091 on: December 06, 2006, 05:01:46 PM »
... actually... looking at how much money Sony LOSES whenever they have to develop their next uberpowerful next-gen system... I don't see why they wouldn't go third party at all. Despite the hefty licensing fees they can charge, they STILL lose money the first couple years.

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Offline Zach

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1092 on: December 06, 2006, 05:05:33 PM »
Im just trying to think of all the times we had to deal with Sony Fanboys telling us that Nintendo was gonna go the way of Sega.  Now that the PS3 is faltering, we are starting to say the same thing.  (I admit, we are only talking about the possibility at this point.)

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1093 on: December 06, 2006, 07:10:09 PM »
The main difference is that I think the people saying Nintendo would go the way of Sega were being ignorant. Nintendo was still making profits on their consoles even with a system like GC that struggled. Sony on the other hand is bleeding money all over the place.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1094 on: December 06, 2006, 11:38:31 PM »
And by playing the game you agree to abide by there rules.

No, only if you present you an EULA and force you to press "I Agree" AND your courts/laws have decided those are valid contracts. Writing some junk into the manual does not make a valid contract.

Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1095 on: December 07, 2006, 01:35:30 AM »
So your telling me there are no legal ramifications if I go and say alter a game to make Mario kill hookers?

By that logic I don't have to pay for my goods as well because I never enter a bounding contract with a company to pay them.  Because by walking on the premise its upheld that I have agreed to pay.

Or a better example.  At a grocery store the grocer states clearly that by parking in the parking lot that any damaged committed by carts they are not liable for.

Or how company computer usage?  Did you know that actual policy manuals do not hold up in court better then those throw away little blurbs right before you login?

I'm sorry but the printed Terms of Use have ramification that are rarely pursued but are still there no less.  Also it's fairly obvious that Nintendo and the like are using copy protection that must first be defeated.
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Offline JonLeung

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1096 on: December 07, 2006, 01:54:15 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
Sony published Mickey Mania.


There were some other Super NES games published by Sony ImageSoft. Or at least one other one I know of, a cute little platformer called Smart Ball.  It was a silly little thing, about some blobby little guy with blobby abilities, but charming enough for me to at least enjoy playing it for some reason.

I wonder if those would show up on the Virtual Console?  >_>  Or if the PS3 would have them available for download in some fashion?  Or if anyone would really care enough for anyone to bother with the tangled legalities for rights and whatnot.  I could see games like GoldenEye worth figuring out who owns the rights but Smart Ball and Mickey Mania?  I may like to play Smart Ball and I remember Mickey Mania's graphics and animation looked really good but neither are remembered as must-have games.

It would've been nice if every game licensed for a Nintendo console could be in some way owned enough by Nintendo to see rereleases by Nintendo themselves whenever they see fit (like for the VC) - original developers would still get a cut of the profits, of course.  But that would probably have scared away developers some more, even if they didn't mean to take the rights of an entire franchise, just particular games.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1097 on: December 07, 2006, 02:22:36 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
So your telling me there are no legal ramifications if I go and say alter a game to make Mario kill hookers?

Strictly speaking, no, there aren't.  If you just modify your own copy, that's fine.  If you distributed code that people could use to likewise alter their own legally obtained copies, that would be fine.  If you distributed complete copies of your modified Mario game, you'd be infringing on Nintendo's copyright by distributing a derivative work.

Quote

By that logic I don't have to pay for my goods as well because I never enter a bounding contract with a company to pay them.  Because by walking on the premise its upheld that I have agreed to pay.

You are confusing copyright infringement/contract violations with theft.  Theft is a criminal matter, and we're talking about a civil matter.

Quote

Or a better example.  At a grocery store the grocer states clearly that by parking in the parking lot that any damaged committed by carts they are not liable for.

They are lying.  Unless they get you to sign a waiver when you enter the parking lot, they can't avoid liability that way.

Quote

Or how company computer usage?  Did you know that actual policy manuals do not hold up in court better then those throw away little blurbs right before you login?

Policy manuals are not agreements of any kind.  They are 100% one-sided.  A dialog box that requires you to click "I Agree" is two-sided, but just barely.  Whether or not that's enough currently depends on where you live.

Quote

I'm sorry but the printed Terms of Use have ramification that are rarely pursued but are still there no less.  Also it's fairly obvious that Nintendo and the like are using copy protection that must first be defeated.

The Terms of Use document only has any bearing on your use if you agree to be bound by it.  If there's a EULA you have to agree to, it contains a clause saying that you agree to be bound by the Terms of Use by clicking "I Agree."  If there's no EULA, there's no agreement.  There is no EULA on Twilight Princess.  There's not even a Terms of Use on Twilight Princess.  There's nothing but a little warning blurb just like the one about epilepsy.  You know, the one that appears every time you boot up a Nintendo game now because just printing it in the manual wasn't enough to cover Nintendo in court?  Do I need to draw the parallel?  

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1098 on: December 07, 2006, 04:09:41 AM »
So your telling me there are no legal ramifications if I go and say alter a game to make Mario kill hookers?

That's creating a derivative work and falls under different rules.

By that logic I don't have to pay for my goods as well because I never enter a bounding contract with a company to pay them.

No, sales contracts are implicit and defined by law. A private person cannot write a similar implicit contract because they are not the law. A contract can only be established through the consent of all parties. Consent can only be given when the contract terms are known (contracts where one party cannot be reasonably expected to have full knowledge of all terms before signifying consent are void). A note in the back of the manual is not defined as known and you have no way of telling whether the person you claim entered the contract has agreed to it or rejected it and simply proceeded to use what is legally his (he can use it without agreeing to that contract and there's not a damn thing you can do). With click-through EULAs you present the contract and force the user to click "accept" in order for the program to start.

Or a better example. At a grocery store the grocer states clearly that by parking in the parking lot that any damaged committed by carts they are not liable for.

That is a disclaimer of liability, not on the same level as a contract. It's also the terms under which you are permitted to enter the grocer's land. A shrinkwrap contract does not give you anything in exchange for agreeing since you have the legal right to use the product. The grocer could wihdraw his part of the offer if you don't keep yours (i.e. get you for trespassing), the company that issued a shrinkwrap contract cannot prevent you from using the product if you don't agree to their contract.

I'm sorry but the printed Terms of Use have ramification that are rarely pursued but are still there no less.

Terms of use apply when you use other people's property. When you buy something and it comes with a shrinkwrap contract it's your property. Copyright can prevent you from copying but it cannot prevent you from using it. Only installers that force agreement to an EULA can do that (although this method is not valid in some jurisdictions since it constitutes 1. a contract under durress (void since you can't disagree with it without losing money), 2. a change to the terms of sale that the buyer was not informed of (sold product differs from product the buyer understood he bought, license vs. copy, constitutes fraud) and 3. a non-negotiated contract (EU law limits the terms those can carry, minus those the EULA is merely a declaration that copyright applies)).

They are lying. Unless they get you to sign a waiver when you enter the parking lot, they can't avoid liability that way.

I don't think the landlord is liable by default, those carts don't move themselves so the guilty party is someone in the area. I've never seen that kind of disclaimer 'round here, I guess it's to deal with the flood of stupid lawsuits the US legal system is plagued with (suing people because you're too dumb to hold a cup of coffee? YOU spilled it, YOU are liable!).

Policy manuals are not agreements of any kind. They are 100% one-sided.

They are the terms under which you can use somebody else's property, the owner of those computers is not required to let you use them, if you agree to the terms he agrees to do so.

You know, the one that appears every time you boot up a Nintendo game now because just printing it in the manual wasn't enough to cover Nintendo in court?

I don't think Nintendo would have lost that case, they simply settled. This disclaimer probably allows them to make the judge throw lawsuits out as frivolous before they get a real hearing which saves on legal costs.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #1099 on: December 07, 2006, 05:14:04 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
They are lying. Unless they get you to sign a waiver when you enter the parking lot, they can't avoid liability that way.

I don't think the landlord is liable by default, those carts don't move themselves so the guilty party is someone in the area. I've never seen that kind of disclaimer 'round here, I guess it's to deal with the flood of stupid lawsuits the US legal system is plagued with (suing people because you're too dumb to hold a cup of coffee? YOU spilled it, YOU are liable!).

To the best of my knowledge, private property owners are liable for virtually any injury or damage that happens on their property.  You can't even get away with having unsafe conditions on your land because nobody's allowed on it, anyway.  However, I'll defer to you because I don't want to argue the point.

Quote

Policy manuals are not agreements of any kind. They are 100% one-sided.

They are the terms under which you can use somebody else's property, the owner of those computers is not required to let you use them, if you agree to the terms he agrees to do so.

I addressed that in the following point, where I said that a separate contract could require you to follow the terms of use.

Quote

You know, the one that appears every time you boot up a Nintendo game now because just printing it in the manual wasn't enough to cover Nintendo in court?

I don't think Nintendo would have lost that case, they simply settled. This disclaimer probably allows them to make the judge throw lawsuits out as frivolous before they get a real hearing which saves on legal costs.

I don't know how a judge would see things, but when the disclaimer only appeared in the manual, it was easy to overlook.  Now it's next to impossible to overlook.  Nintendo must hope that this will reduce the chances of someone at risk playing their games in the first place.  I doubt Nintendo will be able to have any such lawsuits dismissed as frivolous unless they actually fight one out and win to set a precedent, and the risk of setting the opposite precedent is probably too great for them to be willing to do that.  

Regardless of what we think would happen in such a case, for Nintendo it looks like a choice between a couple hundred thousand dollars in "go away" money vs. a million in legal costs with a risk of many millions in damages.  No matter how obnoxious the warnings become, Nintendo's always going to settle just in case, and that's the sensible thing to do, really.  The plaintiff will also always be willing to settle for similar reasons:  a guaranteed payoff now vs. a merely possible larger payoff much later after lawyer fees have bankrupted them.  The chances of any such case receiving a judgment are tiny.  It's symptomatic of a bigger problem, but that would be getting political.