Topic: Nintendo doesn't listen to western devs after all (EGM Iwata/Miyamoto interview)

[wandering]

Forgive me if this was posted before, I'd never seen this interview before. Some highlights:

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So we were able to put together a prototype, implement it in a gameplay demo, and we found out that this kind of control actually makes first-person shooters really fun with the aiming and pointing...but what do you do with movement? That's when we took advantage of the expansion port for the nunchaku configuration [where you plug in a second device connected by a cord]-that setup was proposed by the NCL [Nintendo Co., Ltd., Nintendo's name in Japan] producer of the Metroid Prime series.

So the nunchaku was proposed by an NCL producer, not Retro.

Also, Miymoto confirms Zelda will have WiiConnect24 functionality:

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Shigeru Miyamoto: We do have a lot of ideas on how to use this...we are looking with Zelda at ways of using this functionality to add an element to Wii gameplay. To be honest, I don't have any more examples right now, but generally speaking, we have a lot of ideas around this concept of flowing information to the hardware whether it's asleep or awake and seeing communities build something around that...but nothing concrete right now.

And is Miyamoto hinting at the existance of a Wii phone?

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Think about it this way: Everyone in the room probably has a cell phone, and even though you're not using it right now, it's sitting there in a waiting mode where it can receive calls and e-mail. We think that by taking advantage of this concept, we can bring some very interesting new ideas to gaming. Up until now, network gaming services have all offered the standard multiplayer experience brought online, where you battle against other players to test your skill. With our new functionality, we really think that we can change the types of things that you can do while online.

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But the sound teams in particular were very passionate about having a speaker in the controller that could make noise.

You are probably familiar with Yoot Saito, who developed Seaman and recently Odama for the GameCube-he made mention that if it had a speaker you could have it ring like a phone...that sort of thing. And a lot of the development teams were excited about it, too. So after debating its cost and function, we decided to include it.

[Requiem]

What?!

Is that confirmation?! That's amazing!

That not only confirms a WiiPhone, but also that you'll have one and only one friend code (giving the Wii a phone number). It also confirms some sort of BuddyList/Friend Manager type program.

This is great news!

[wandering]

Not confirmation exactly...he's comparing WiiConnect24 to a cell phone in the way that it's always on. He doesn't actually say the Wii will have phone functionality.

[Kairon]

Iwata said in another interview, in response to why a microphone wasn't incorporated into the phone, was that people are more used to "headsets" in terms of phones.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[mantidor]

But Iwata said it himself that he asked retro for advice, let me dig up the GDC speech transcript.

And urgh... more exclusive things for the wii version of TP, I can only hope nintendo gives something, anything at all exclusive to the GC version as well.

EDIT:

he didn't mention retro after all, damn!

"This sounded good, but when we shared the idea with our Metroid Prime producers, they objected. "

So cleverly worded, thats why I only believe half of what Nintendo says when the go with their PR speak, and sometimes not even that. Oh well... the fantasy was good while it lasted, that they were being more flexible and open with their western branches.

[Kairon]

When Iwata talked about Retro, he must've meant Retro's Japanese Producer who liasons with NCL.

And why develop any exclusive content for GC? The only thing the GC can do that the Wii can't is hook up to a GBA. If it's in the GC version, it makes no sense NOT to include it in the Wii version as well.

Edit: If it's any consolation (which I doubt it will be to you), the GC will have exclusive current gen controls that will probably be better suited to the game.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[IceCold]

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So cleverly worded, thats why I only believe half of what Nintendo says when the go with their PR speak, and sometimes not even that. Oh well... the fantasy was good while it lasted, that they were being more flexible and open with their western branches.

I'm sure that even before they talked to the producers, they had considered some sort of analogue attachment. I mean, 99% of games these days use the analogue stick (the same one that Nintendo pioneered), so why wouldn't they include it in the new controller? Probably the producers came up with the idea of the "nunchaku" way of connecting it, but Miyamoto wouldn't be insane enough to exclude an analogue stick from any controller.

And I have said time and time again, I agree with you about the whole Zelda thing. However, I really think you're taking your pessimism too far - never before would I have thought that you would say such things as "I want the Wii to fail just because I hate the name" or that you would become so distrusting of Nintendo. It's like you're a whole different person in the last few months. Of course, no company is perfect, but I think Nintendo deserves a lot more than what you're giving them now. In this case, saying that this small piece of news is proof that they are not being more flexible and open with Western developers is just absurd. This tells you that? Do you even know what's happening behind the scenes with Retro and Nintendo? Maybe Nintendo is giving them freedom and accepting input, but we don't know that. I would hardly say that it is a "fantasy" that was good while it lasted..

What happened to the old mantidor?

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: mantidor
But Iwata said it himself that he asked retro for advice, let me dig up the GDC speech transcript.

And urgh... more exclusive things for the wii version of TP, I can only hope nintendo gives something, anything at all exclusive to the GC version as well.

EDIT:

he didn't mention retro after all, damn!

"This sounded good, but when we shared the idea with our Metroid Prime producers, they objected. "

So cleverly worded, thats why I only believe half of what Nintendo says when the go with their PR speak, and sometimes not even that. Oh well... the fantasy was good while it lasted, that they were being more flexible and open with their western branches.

Way to blame other people for your own misconceptions. Ah, what an age of responsibility we live in!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: IceCold

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So cleverly worded, thats why I only believe half of what Nintendo says when the go with their PR speak, and sometimes not even that. Oh well... the fantasy was good while it lasted, that they were being more flexible and open with their western branches.

I'm sure that even before they talked to the producers, they had considered some sort of analogue attachment. I mean, 99% of games these days use the analogue stick (the same one that Nintendo pioneered), so why wouldn't they include it in the new controller? Probably the producers came up with the idea of the "nunchaku" way of connecting it, but Miyamoto wouldn't be insane enough to exclude an analogue stick from any controller.

Miyamoto and Nintendo were considering a "detachable" wiimote section that was part of a larger more traditional controller shell, and could be detached to be used for simpler games. The NCL Producer for Metroid Prime is the one who suggested that instead of having a controller that split into two or more pieces, make the Wiimote the standard controller and merely hook it up to a more traditional analog stick section when needed.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Ceric]

I think in the long run the plan they currently have is better then the one that Kairon said they proposed.  To many pieces that could break etc when you have a splittable controller.  Wii uses Bluetooth and thus a Bluetooth headphone borg thingy is not that out of the question.  If we are going for this to be "confirmation through hearsay" then the Wii will always have the ability to manage your e-Mail.  That would be cool and all or really annoying.

Middle of a game "You've got Spam"  Pops up in the corner during an intense scene ruining the mood.

I'm not to suprise that Twilight Princess will have WiiConnect24 capability.  I actually be more surprised to hear of a first party title that doesn't.  Sort of like most of the game from Nintendo for the Cube support Progressive Scan.  I see it as a feature at that level.  You can live without it but it might make things nicer.  I'm still trying to find where they are going to store the extra info if it's used heavily.  512 ain't gonna cut it for a couple things of good size.  An intrigueing idea is if the Wii disc didnt have to come fully written and the drive was actually a burner of some sort as well.  The prices are not as bad for that type of equipment now and it would solve the theoritical storage problem.  You just put it on it's applicable game.  The developer should know how much space they have to work with.  This would also allow Nintendo to sell blank Nintendo DVD discs for burning of your VC games tied to whatever they are tied to.  I mean at min Twilight Princess is going to have about 2.2 gigs of Free space left. (Leaving a generous amount for Wii Functionalities and possibly the loss in the burning process)  That's a lot of wiggle room.

[UncleBob]

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Originally posted by: KaironAnd why develop any exclusive content for GC? The only thing the GC can do that the Wii can't is hook up to a GBA. If it's in the GC version, it makes no sense NOT to include it in the Wii version as well.

Since the Wii has GCN ports on it, I see no reason why there can't be GBA connectivity in a Wii title (in theory)...

[Artimus]

There's no indication that the idea didn't come from Retro. They're constantly working with the NCL producer. Considering he's their contact at NCL it makes sense they'd send any ideas through him.

[Ceric]

That is true.  I mean it's not like Retro and Console Developement can run into each other at lunch.

[ThePerm]

hmm being able to call your friends wii, that sounds totally kickass..then you can chat and give otehr people numbers, and it would be like a big phone list

[mantidor]

Oh please kairon, it wasnt my misconception, it was everyone's misconception, just look at the title of the thread, I didnt made it

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Originally posted by: IceCold I'm sure that even before they talked to the producers, they had considered some sort of analogue attachment. I mean, 99% of games these days use the analogue stick (the same one that Nintendo pioneered), so why wouldn't they include it in the new controller? Probably the producers came up with the idea of the "nunchaku" way of connecting it, but Miyamoto wouldn't be insane enough to exclude an analogue stick from any controller.

Nintendo wanted to make something completly different, the name alone is enough proof. I think they, specially miyamoto, were perfectly ok with dropping analog stick support. They wanted to be as far away from current gaming as possible, it appears they later realized that it wouldnt be such a good idea, and thats why theres analog atachment, a shell and VC games. Still the whole philosophy behind the console is to make something never seen before.

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And I have said time and time again, I agree with you about the whole Zelda thing. However, I really think you're taking your pessimism too far - never before would I have thought that you would say such things as "I want the Wii to fail just because I hate the name" or that you would become so distrusting of Nintendo. It's like you're a whole different person in the last few months. Of course, no company is perfect, but I think Nintendo deserves a lot more than what you're giving them now. In this case, saying that this small piece of news is proof that they are not being more flexible and open with Western developers is just absurd. This tells you that? Do you even know what's happening behind the scenes with Retro and Nintendo? Maybe Nintendo is giving them freedom and accepting input, but we don't know that. I would hardly say that it is a "fantasy" that was good while it lasted..

Its known NCL is close to being a tyrant with NoA, even PGC had an editorial  called "free NoA". Maybe things are better, but Retro being involved in the creation of the controller was extremely good news, I personally was thrilled about that because it was proof of a better attitude, now we are in the dark again about it. Its not really proof of anything and it wasnt my intention to mean that, but I feel inclined to assume NCL is still not very nice about NoA and NoE, just look at the name of the console for instance...

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What happened to the old mantidor?

Its gone! Im very dissapointed with Nintendo's attitude, I don't see why I should root for a company that tells us in our face we are not their focus anymore, and I just don't see them as artists as I used to. I am now rooting more for the small studios and dev teams, including those inside Nintendo like Intelligent Systems, who are going to make Super Paper Mario because its fun, not because it would help a little in their financial report.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Oh please kairon, it wasnt my misconception, it was everyone's misconception, just look at the title of the thread, I didnt made it

Yeah, notice how you're the only one complaining though? The rest of us acknowledge our own culpability in the mistake, yet you make it out that it's Nintendo's fault when reality doesn't match up with your perception of it.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Nintendo wanted to make something completly different, the name alone is enough proof. I think they, specially miyamoto, were perfectly ok with dropping analog stick support. They wanted to be as far away from current gaming as possible, it appears they later realized that it wouldnt be such a good idea, and thats why theres analog atachment, a shell and VC games. Still the whole philosophy behind the console is to make something never seen before.

Wow, if you READ about the story behind the controller, then you'd realize that they weren't dropping the analog stick support at all. They simply had a different idea of implementing it before the Nunchuck idea came on. That different idea was that the Wiimote would be a detachable section of a larger controller, instead of having the analog attachment seperate altogether.

If you think about it mantidor, you can THANK the analog stick for making the analog stick LESS STANDARD because otherwise, the Wiimote would've been perceived as a side-accessory, a detachable simplified controller that had to be intentionally detached to be used since it was originally part of a larger traditional controller.

Again, your perception of reality and the stated facts are at odds.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Its gone! Im very dissapointed with Nintendo's attitude, I don't see why I should root for a company that tells us in our face we are not their focus anymore, and I just don't see them as artists as I used to.

That's a rather self-serving definition of art. Artists aren't supposed to entertain us, they're supposed to challenge and incite us. With the Wii, I don't think there's any question that Nintendo is issueing videogame lovers a series of unprecedented challenges, from new ideas of who plays games to new ways of playing them.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ceric]

Haven't we had the Art argument before?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Didn't one of the Wiimote prototypes have an analog stick in place of the d-pad?

[Kairon]

Yup.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[IceCold]

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Its gone!  Im very dissapointed with Nintendo's attitude, I don't see why I should root for a company that tells us in our face we are not their focus anymore, and I just don't see them as artists as I used to. I am now rooting more for the small studios and dev teams, including those inside Nintendo like Intelligent Systems, who are going to make Super Paper Mario because its fun, not because it would help a little in their financial report.

Oh gosh.. seriously? I thought I knew "mantidor" better, and I respected you a lot. But this seriously moves that a few notches down. First off, you're assuming both that Nintendo wanted to make the controller so radically different that it wouldn't be able to be called a controller AND that they have dropped gamers completely in favour of a new audience. If you even saw the mockups and all the processes they went through to get to this stage, you'll find that what you think is false. They were considering the traditional shell with analogue stick, buttons and all, then with the detachable remote. Then, as BnM said, they had a concept with an analogue stick on the remote. Then the other figures had different button layouts, including kidney buttons in one. Being different definitely was the idea, but not in the way you think. They still wanted to keep the functionality of current games, but balance that with their new vision. Furthermore, what do you mean they told us to their face that they weren't focusing on us? Please don't refer to that Iwata comment where he said that they shouldn't listen to their fanbase. That was clearly taken out of context. He meant that if they do something that no one is expecting, the surprise will be that much sweeter. And E3 showed that gamers are still very much part of Nintendo's focus. I don't see why there can't be a balance between pursuing nongamers and appeasing gamers - and gamers actually get a better deal because it's a whole new way of playing games, keeping them interesting. Nintendo needs to expand their market, but gamers are still very much a part of the equation.

And every single gaming company makes games for the money. It's all about profit, and I don't believe you were naive enough to believe that they made games for fun. Heaven knows that you're being the opposite of naive right now, dismissing everything Nintendo says as PR speak. Intelligent Systems is NOT making Super Paper Mario for fun, it's because it will sell a lot. Having said that, through all of the business and profits and figures, Nintendo is the gaming company that breeds creativity and artistry the most. All the innovations, all the lovingly made software and all their ideas prove this. The Zelda move WAS a business decision, and I don't like it, but I accept the fact, and let's move on with it. How this would lessen your opinion of Nintendo after they keep emphasising profit is beyond me. I really believe that you are being too harsh on them, and I have changed from looking forward to your posts to avoiding them.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nintendo doesn't listen to anybody, especially ME, cuz Nintendo Power isn't including any sort of E3 trailer DVD in their next issue.

What a bunch of losers!

[mantidor]

I think you misunderstood me, Icecold. Im really not that angry about the non-gamer aproach, so far it has produced games like Nintendogs or Brain Training that I think I could enjoy, but Im not going to cheer Nintendo for focusing on this non-games instead of, for instance, Metroid. Nintendo has never said it explicitly of course, but they have said that their focus is to make my mom play games, I simply cannot go crazy about such statements and defend Nintendo left and right as many of you do, because I honestly couldnt care less if my mom or grandma pick up the controller or not, and chances are I wont like the games they are going to like. I don't hate them for focusing in people who don't play games, but I dont love them for doing it either.

The real source of my discontent with the company is the TP deal as Im sure you know. These games are all financial projects after all and Im very aware of it, but still a dev like IS created a game based on GC and they won't cram in remote functionality when it doesnt need it just so it can pass as a wii title and sell more copies. I really saw that move as something so cheap! so tacky! it shocked me like nothing else the company has ever done, not even the name, and you know how much I hate it. Nintendo was the kind of company that delayed Ocarina constantly while the N64 wasn't really doing well so the game could really be a masterpiece, they were the kind of company that sticked to toon shading when everyone was screaming their lungs out how much the hate the look. They had a vision for a game and stick to it against all odds, but now they came with this thing added last minute. In my eyes is comparable to something EA or ubisoft does, when they release the same game for every single platform in existence to maximize profits, but its obvious the quality of the game suffers as a result. So I see this as a big change in the way the company does games for their new console, and I don't like it at all, so I can't be as confident on them as used to.

[couchmonkey]

I don't really give two poops whether Nintendo listens to western devs or not, since there are few that I actually care about.

As for the whole Zelda thing, I don't believe Nintendo is delaying the game JUST for Wii features.  They said the game is 80% complete at E3, do you really think they're going to spend 20% of development time just tweaking the Wii control?  I doubt the control will even change that much from what was at E3, and if it did, I still doubt it takes all 80 people (or however many are working on the game) just to do that.

The idea that Nintendo delayed the game just for Wii control used to bother me too, but looking at the monthly interviews Nintendo Power does with members of the development team, I think it's clear the company is still polishing the game up in every area, from graphics to level design, not just Wii control.  That's good enough for me.

[Ian Sane]

"Miyamoto and Nintendo were considering a 'detachable' wiimote section that was part of a larger more traditional controller shell, and could be detached to be used for simpler games. The NCL Producer for Metroid Prime is the one who suggested that instead of having a controller that split into two or more pieces, make the Wiimote the standard controller and merely hook it up to a more traditional analog stick section when needed."

Damn!  I actually prefer the original idea of having an otherwise normal controller with a detachable remote for use when needed.  I think such a design would remain innovative but would result in less games that use motion control just because it's there even though it makes no sense to (ie: Zelda).  Dang NCL guy!  It's his fault the controller is short on buttons.

[Requiem]

Hahahaha

aww, Ian's mad....

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I think such a design would remain innovative but would result in less games that use motion control just because it's there even though it makes no sense to (ie: Zelda).

I agree, yet disagree with that point. Though (as of right now) Zelda's controls seemed shoe-horned, I believe they went with this move for the simplicity factor. The controller is innovative none-the-less, but the fact that it's also simple won't scare away potential non-gamer buyers.

A controller that can break apart and morph into something else is ALOT scarier and intimaditing than a simple remote that has attachments.