Author Topic: My Sony Rant, Consolidated  (Read 24974 times)

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Offline Smash_Brother

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My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« on: June 05, 2006, 10:55:47 AM »
Sony has done everything it possibly could over the past year to turn itself into the biggest laughing stock in the gaming industry. The only thing left is for Ken Kutaragi to be involved in a child sex scandal.

So far, they've:

1. Bet all the marbles on Blu-Ray as a media format when it's likely to fail
If you don't know, Sony has had 3 failed media formats in the past (Betamax, Minidisc and UMD). Blu-Ray will be their forth attempt to push a proprietary media format into the world and collect "phat lewtz" off of licensing fees. Problem is, HD-DVD is being supported by far more powerful studios, such as Universal and Time Warner, who intend to do everything they can to stamp out Blu-Ray like a misfired bottle rocket. These studios intend to release such giant movies as Lord of the Rings and King Kong in HD on the same day Sony releases Blu-Ray players. Now, they're trying to launch BR players at around $900. If you don't remember, VHS killed Betamax for one reason: because it was CHEAPER. If Sony truly wants to push BR as a format, they need to make it affordable to everyone and they are doing the exact opposite.

2. Severely overestimated the selling power of the Playstation name
It has long been true that PS is the most profitable venue for Sony. Only trouble is, this has very little to do with Sony's own efforts but is instead thanks to the efforts of 3rd party developers who brought games with large fanbases (Final Fantasy) or huge controversy (GTA) to their console.

In this coming gen, Sony doesn't have the year-long lead on its competition, nor does it have the necessary 3rd party support to push PS3s. With the 360 sharing over 50% of its titles already, reasons to buy a PS3 can be counted on one hand (mainly, MGS4 and FF13).

3. Overpriced the PS3 by a long-shot
Many were shocked when Kutaragi (or whoever it was) insisted with a straight face that, at $600, the PS3 was "too cheap". The truth is, the people at Sony might actually BELIEVE this because, in Sony's eyes, the PS3 is both the successor to it's Playstation line AND a "cheap" Blu-Ray player.

Problem is, I've seen little evidence that consumers will want EITHER, with HDDVD appealing at a lower pricetag and with more popular movies and more movies in general and with the PS3 having few "killer apps", the logic that people will pay $600 because they want both a PS3 and a Blu-Ray player rapidly evaporates.

4. Tried to make a media format succeed via piggybacking it on another product, likely dooming both
The PS3 is Sony's only hope for Blu-Ray and thus, it was their decision to push the PS3 out into the world as a combo unit much like they did with the PS2. The DVD playback on PS2 was highly successful in pushing the console as a cheaper alternative to current DVD players, which were as expensive if not more so.

This would work again with the PS3...were it not being saddled with Sony's proprietary media instead of the format which will very likely be the dominant next generation media format.

As near as I can tell, Sony is setting themselves up for a huge failure. Every Sony fanboy I know has actually come out and repented because they too are appalled at what Sony is doing as of late. If the PS3 was going to launch with its premium package at a competitive $300-400, then I could definitely see them as a contender and as a valid vessel which might carry Blu-Ray into the realm of success.

But at $600, the PS3 becomes a luxury item, and with Nintendo and MS on the gaming front and Universal and Time Warner on the movie front, Sony is being attacked from both sides and their only hope for survival, the PS3, is so badly overpriced that even Sony's fanbase is abandoning them.

Unless Sony decides to drop the price, likely taking an even bigger loss on every console sold, then I cannot see them having any degree of success in the coming console war. If the PSP is any indication, Sony products are PERFECTLY capable of failing, most likely because of the $250 price tag and proprietary media format for movies which makes the console pale in comparison to portable DVD players which can go for as little as $70 and will use existing DVDs which the customer already owns.

So, in a nutshell, I think that Sony can either drop the price of the PS3 or they're royally f*cked. I wouldn't be surprised if MGS4 and FF13 were quickly announced as coming to other consoles shortly after being released on the PS3 due to very poor sales, leaving Sony with little to nothing to speak of in terms of exclusive titles.

MS has already made it blatantly clear that they intend to attack Sony full on this gen, having laid claim to many titles which would have otherwise been PS3 exclusive. With the Wii coming in as a seriously strong contender, Sony will have to convince players somehow that, despite the fact that its competitors are cheaper and offering similar game libraries to the PS3, the PS3 is worth paying $600 for.

Frankly, I don't see it happening.
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Offline Frozen Atlantic

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 10:58:02 AM »
^agree.

When's the next NR episode, dude?
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 11:11:03 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Frozen Atlantic When's the next NR episode, dude?


Soon.

I've been too busy to record one for far too long. Had a wedding to go to this past week and a whole bunch of other stuff in the way.
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Offline Arbok

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 11:30:14 AM »
Some good points I must say, although personally I don't see HD-DVD or Blue Ray taking off in any large way, with the best either of them could hope for being a reception similar to that of Laserdisc during the VHS era.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2006, 11:44:50 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Some good points I must say, although personally I don't see HD-DVD or Blue Ray taking off in any large way, with the best either of them could hope for being a reception similar to that of Laserdisc during the VHS era.


Yeah, I can see that, but in terms of support, HDDVD has MUCH more backing than BR any day of the week.

I forgot to mention that HDDVD and Blu-Ray are competing for a market which is likely to be shrinking and dying off soon in lieu of online media distribution. You download the movie for a fee online, burn it to your OWN HDDVD and keep it forever that way.

But this is what's killing Sony in the here and now, whereas that is an issue which they'll likely encounter further down the road.
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Offline JonLeung

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2006, 11:49:03 AM »
The thing is, DVDs were already around for a few years before the PS2 was launched...I think PS2s gave DVDs a decent push but I think it was already on its way to being a standard beforehand.  Though I could be wrong.  Blu-Ray is clearly another story, though.

Now Sony with their PS3 is trying to sell an all-new unproven format in the face of another...that's going to be a tough sell.  And people won't be in a hurry to adopt it, as most people are content with DVDs.  As far as I know, HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays are just like DVDs - just with more space...so there won't be new content, just more of it at higher quality.  It's not like the switch from VHS to DVD...menus and elimination of rewinding, etc....

And the games.  Sheesh.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 11:59:56 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: JonLeung
The thing is, DVDs were already around for a few years before the PS2 was launched...I think PS2s gave DVDs a decent push but I think it was already on its way to being a standard beforehand.  Though I could be wrong.  Blu-Ray is clearly another story, though.


Yeah, I didn't mention that because both HDDVD and Blu-Ray face that same hurdle, just that, if either format succeeds, it'll very likely be HDDVD.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 12:18:58 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I forgot to mention that HDDVD and Blu-Ray are competing for a market which is likely to be shrinking and dying off soon in lieu of online media distribution. You download the movie for a fee online, burn it to your OWN HDDVD and keep it forever that way.


I highly doubt that. It sounds like the same logic that was being tossed around before the dot com bust, when everyone thought that traditional stores would be dead within years as everyone would order online... seems people forget that most consumers like to buy tangible things, and prefer holding the item themself before forking over cash for it in most cases.
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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 12:30:32 PM »
One advantage DVD players had in its early stages was it used fairly standard outputs that were compatible with many TVs already in homes (the composite cable trio).  Of course, there were quite a few people who were stuck with RF/coax connections, but remedying that by buying RF modulators or routing the composites thru a VCR didn't break the bank.  Plus, it was providing an obvious jump in picture/sound quality and physical media convenience above VHS.

Now, Blur-Ayd-Isc via PS3 is aiming to provide a jump over DVD.  It already fails on the "physical media" front, cuz it's just another disc.  It also fails on the "compatibility" front, because the advantages of BRD are only apparent when you've got the hundreds-to-thousands of $$$ of audio components with an HD monitor to play it on.

Pushing the format and a game system at the same time, with a hybrid outrageous price, will make one of the two suffer; at worst (or best =D ) both will suffer.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 01:21:22 PM »
also, the hd dvd cases are so much nicer, the blueray discs cases look crappy  
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Offline Louieturkey

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 02:18:16 PM »
FYI, Bluray has way more support than HD-DVD does.  All studios but Universal (yes, WB is supporting Bluray) are supporting Bluray and only 3 (WB, Universal and Paramount) are supporting HD-DVD.  So yes, HD DVD has LOTR exclusive but Bluray has Star Wars exclusive(well, it'll be the umpteenth time we have to buy it I guess).

No studio has any thought of releasing HD quality content online at this point.  They are way too afraid of piracy to do this.  Only dvd quality is being offered and most of these downloads have many more restrictions than dvd ever had, let alone none of them being HD like Bluray.

The rest of the arguments I can agree with on some level, but these two are blatantly wrong.

ThePerm: I'm hoping you are being sarcastic here.  HD-DVD and Bluray cases are exactly the same, except one is red and the other blue.  It's the new 2.0 version of Red vs. Blue I guess. :P

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 02:30:01 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok I highly doubt that. It sounds like the same logic that was being tossed around before the dot com bust, when everyone thought that traditional stores would be dead within years as everyone would order online... seems people forget that most consumers like to buy tangible things, and prefer holding the item themself before forking over cash for it in most cases.


This is ALREADY happening via Digital Cable which allows you to "rent" movies from their servers and record them with a DVR as you watch them. Even my 50+ year old parents figured out how to do this so it ain't that hard.

It's already happening, just like mp3s. The real question is who will be the first to make it legal and start officially selling movies over Digital Cable.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 02:42:38 PM »
"So yes, HD DVD has LOTR exclusive but Bluray has Star Wars exclusive"

Star Wars?  Are you kidding me?  It took Lucas years to release Star Wars on DVD and then a few years more to release the original cuts.  You ain't going to see Star Wars on either of these new formats any time soon.

I think the point is moot anyway.  The general public is quite satisfied with DVDs and isn't going to abandon a format so soon.  It took years for VHS to be replaced and it wasn't until there was a huge jump in picture quality on standard run-of-the-mill TVs.  I can go to Wal-Mart and buy the cheapest TV there and the difference between VHS and DVD is still blatantly noticable.  I can't do that with HD-DVD or Bluray and I think that pretty much dooms the chances of either format taking over anytime soon.

Even if Bluray takes off it's FAR too early for Sony to gain an advantage by having it with the PS3.  When the PS2 came out DVDs were already accepted.  Stores were full of them and the general idea was that that was the new standard, a lot of us just hadn't upgraded yet.  In comparison I've never seen a physical Bluray disc in my life and only saw an HD-DVD for the first time yesterday.  The situation now and the situation in 2000 aren't even comparible.

Offline ThePerm

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2006, 03:02:32 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Louieturkey

ThePerm: I'm hoping you are being sarcastic here.  HD-DVD and Bluray cases are exactly the same, except one is red and the other blue.  It's the new 2.0 version of Red vs. Blue I guess. :P


actually little things like boxart can go a long way towards a purchase. People judge books by their covers i guess.

 
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Offline Louieturkey

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2006, 03:36:26 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: ThePerm
Quote

Originally posted by: Louieturkey

ThePerm: I'm hoping you are being sarcastic here.  HD-DVD and Bluray cases are exactly the same, except one is red and the other blue.  It's the new 2.0 version of Red vs. Blue I guess. :P


actually little things like boxart can go a long way towards a purchase. People judge books by their covers i guess.


That is true.  But in this case, it's a choice between two colors.  That is all.  Each side has exactly the same dimensions, same exact look and same exact verbage.

Offline capamerica

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2006, 03:51:50 PM »
WB and Paramount support for Blu-Ray can be very misleading. All they did was cover their butts incase HD-DVD tanked. Hell even Microsoft did the same thing with Blu-Ray when they joined the Blu-Ray board. They just wanted a fall back plan incase HD-DVD failed and Blu-Ray did take off. If you were unaware WB and Paramount has not shown any relay support for the Blu-Ray format all they did was say we might release these movies to Blu-Ray. Until you hear them actually come out and say yes we are going to be releasing these movies to Blu-Ray don't count them on that side, Again Even Microsoft said that there MIGHT be a Blu-Ray add-on for the Xbox360. Might is a powerful word you can say it all you want and its easy to use with out really committing.

Also IF WB was actually supporting Blu-Ray why would they combat the release of the Blu-Ray player and first wave of Blu-Ray movies with the release of Lord of the Rings and King Kong? Don't you think they would want Blu-Ray to take off? Also neither WB and Paramount have plans to release any movies in the first wave of Blu-Ray movies, strange since they have all those HD-DVD movies already in HD format all they would have to do is burn them to Blu-Ray discs.

What you are see is just smoke and mirrors done by the Blu-Ray group to make you think Blu-Ray has more support then it really does. Its a classic trick done by Sony. Just look at what they have done with the PSP. No Sale Figures, just Shipped figures. Flooding the PSP section with movies to make up for the lack of games. You would believe that the PSP has a lot of support listing to Sony and then looking at the PSP section at your local BestBuy or Wal-Mart.

For a sec lets look at a nice quote from them:
Quote
The Blu-ray format has received broad support from the major movie studios as a successor to today's DVD format. Seven of the eight major movie studios (Warner, Paramount, Fox, Disney, Sony, MGM and Lionsgate) have already announced titles for Blu-ray, whereas HD-DVD only has support from three major movie studios (Warner, Paramount and Universal)


First: Sony OWNS MGM so what choice do they have? They added MGM to the list just to make it look like they have more support then they really do. They might as well add Columbia TriStar Pictures, United Artists and GSN.

Second: Disney has announced that they will be supporting both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, yet they make it sound like Disney will not be. According to Variety.com, Bob Iger said during the firm's annual meeting with shareholders that they will be supporting both formats.

Third: Sony and Lionsgate are the only two studios that have actually announced any real content for Blu-Ray and have actual release dates. Studios can do all the talking they want about movies coming to different formats but until you see them they are just vaporware.

Also one other thing, Just because FOX is supporting Blu-Ray does NOT mean that StarWars will show up on Blu-Ray. George Lucas owns the StarWars movies and will decide where they go. And last I knew he was more supportive of HD-DVD then Blu-Ray. But has stated that StarWars will not show up on either format until both formats have matured. So we won't know which format StarWars will show up on untill 2009/2010.

The whole Blu-Ray/HD-DVD thing is very messy and unless you spend hours apond hours reading evey signal press release your never going to get the whole picture. I recomend just holding off until all the dust settles in a year or two and see where your favioret movies are then, there is no reason to jump on the next-gen video format on day one when your old DVDs are still alive and kicking. Or do what I'm doing and hold out for the next format which will most likely be announced some time next year. Holo-Discs here I come!

One other thing. The whole Format war is going to fail just due to the fact that no one is going to know which format their favioret movies are on. And no one is going to want to own two players to watch movies they already own on DVD.
 
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Offline SixthAngel

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2006, 03:54:20 PM »
With all the Playstation brand name talk I haven't seen anyone mention of the DVD brandname unless I missed it.
To the average joe HDDVD sounds like the natural choice

I would say DVD was the standard when the ps2 came out.  The playstation was a deal because people were already planning on buying a DVD player and there was no talk of any other player.  I don't even know if DVD actually had competition.  Unlike then has anyone who is not on videogame sites even heard of bluray?

Offline Arbok

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 04:09:58 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
It's already happening, just like mp3s. The real question is who will be the first to make it legal and start officially selling movies over Digital Cable.


Exactly, but last time I checked stores were still stocked full of CDs. Just because online retail of something is viable, doesn't mean it will stomp out the old means. MP3s are the best example, and considering how much easier it is to transfer those over full length films do you really think they will kill the DVD market when MP3s have yet to do that to CDs?

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Star Wars?  Are you kidding me?  It took Lucas years to release Star Wars on DVD and then a few years more to release the original cuts.  You ain't going to see Star Wars on either of these new formats any time soon.


My thoughts exactly. Lucas was not quick to jump onto DVD for the original films, and he sure won't be with HDDVD or Blu-Ray considering that you have two different formats fighting it out.

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Even if Bluray takes off it's FAR too early for Sony to gain an advantage by having it with the PS3.


I think what we are seeing here is that Sony is so desperate to claim a popular media format for themself that they are willing to jeopordize the Playstation brand name if needed just to win the war with Toshiba.
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Offline capamerica

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 04:17:33 PM »
DVD was the standard when the PS2 came out, Infact DVD players were coming down in price at that point cause I remeber getting a DVD player for xmas the same year X-Men came out on DVD which if I'm not mistaken was the same year the PS2 hit the market.

I also remeber bitching up a storm with my friends when the Dreamcast launched and it didn't have a DVD player. I just felt at the time it would have been a very smart move to suport DVDs. Sony was going to do it, the movies were fairly cheap, I think they were only like $10 more then the VHS versions and they had all these new features that we had never seen before with VHS.

DVD first hit the market in 1996 and it wasn't untill 1999 that they started showing up in Wal-Mart. The PS2 showed up in 2000.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are not having the same effect as DVD, besides a better picture what else do they bring to the table?  
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 04:38:16 PM »
lol, yet iv probably watched more movies on my dreamcast than any other console.  
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Offline Arbok

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 04:57:20 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: capamerica
DVD was the standard when the PS2 came out, Infact DVD players were coming down in price at that point cause I remeber getting a DVD player for xmas the same year X-Men came out on DVD which if I'm not mistaken was the same year the PS2 hit the market.


DVDs became standard relatively quick. I bought a new PC in 1998, and it came with a DVD drive and was fairly inexpensive considering and that was when the tech was first gaining mainstream appeal. The draw for me was getting to watch these films in different languages (a huge plus for a fan of Japanese cinema) and in widescreen.

Like others have mentioned, these new formats only real draw is better picutre, which takes a more expensive TV set to even enjoy, and a larger medium to fit things on.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 07:46:31 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: SixthAngel
With all the Playstation brand name talk I haven't seen anyone mention of the DVD brandname unless I missed it.
To the average joe HDDVD sounds like the natural choice

I would say DVD was the standard when the ps2 came out.  The playstation was a deal because people were already planning on buying a DVD player and there was no talk of any other player.  I don't even know if DVD actually had competition.  Unlike then has anyone who is not on videogame sites even heard of bluray?


That has been one of my points when it comes to the war, HDDVD does sound like the best choice for a consumer since they are familiar with DVD players. If you tell someone that MS has an HD-DVD player people may wonder what the HD stands for and that will be it, but tell them "Blu-ray" they will have no idea what it is. Chances are you are going to say that it is a HD DVD player in the long run.
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Offline Grant10k

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 07:55:53 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: SixthAngel
With all the Playstation brand name talk I haven't seen anyone mention of the DVD brandname unless I missed it.
To the average joe HDDVD sounds like the natural choice

I would say DVD was the standard when the ps2 came out.  The playstation was a deal because people were already planning on buying a DVD player and there was no talk of any other player.  I don't even know if DVD actually had competition.  Unlike then has anyone who is not on videogame sites even heard of bluray?

I think that someone was developing competition for DVD's but didn't want a format war so they backed down. If you look at the logo for SD cards (memory cards) you'll notice that the 'D' in SD looks much more like a disk than a square. It's my understanding that that would have been the logo for the competing format but they recycled it into SD cards.
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Offline Louieturkey

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RE:My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 08:04:59 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: capamerica
WB and Paramount support for Blu-Ray can be very misleading. All they did was cover their butts incase HD-DVD tanked. Hell even Microsoft did the same thing with Blu-Ray when they joined the Blu-Ray board. They just wanted a fall back plan incase HD-DVD failed and Blu-Ray did take off. If you were unaware WB and Paramount has not shown any relay support for the Blu-Ray format all they did was say we might release these movies to Blu-Ray. Until you hear them actually come out and say yes we are going to be releasing these movies to Blu-Ray don't count them on that side, Again Even Microsoft said that there MIGHT be a Blu-Ray add-on for the Xbox360. Might is a powerful word you can say it all you want and its easy to use with out really committing.

Second: Disney has announced that they will be supporting both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, yet they make it sound like Disney will not be. According to Variety.com, Bob Iger said during the firm's annual meeting with shareholders that they will be supporting both formats.

You don't need to spin like this.  You say one thing about WB and Paramount, yet say something completely different about Disney.  Yet Disney announced Bluray discs at CES, but have not announced any HDDVD titles.  WB on the other hand, has stated they are going to release Goblet of Fire on Bluray along with others, just they are supporting HDDVD first and the Bluray discs come either late this year or sometime next year.  Here's a list of currently announced Bluray titles.

Quote

First: Sony OWNS MGM so what choice do they have? They added MGM to the list just to make it look like they have more support then they really do. They might as well add Columbia TriStar Pictures, United Artists and GSN.

Actually they just were distributing the discs and now they do not do this.  20th Century Fox is taking over this duty.  Check digitalbits.com for more info.


Offline capamerica

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RE: My Sony Rant, Consolidated
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 09:12:27 PM »
Disney announced HD-DVD support in March of this year, Its a bit early for them to announce titles just yet. Heck they don't even have a real line up for Blu-Ray yet.

based on that list looks like WB has missed their release dates for Blu-Ray movies. Maybe they are holding off until the first consumer Blu-Ray player hits the market, who knows, we'll have to wait and see. I just know that WB has announced that when Blu-Ray hits the market that they will be releasing Lord of the Rings and King Kong on HD-DVD, which to me at least doesn't sound like something a company who supports both formats would do.

Sony bought MGM back in September 2004 for $5 billion. Sony and MGM are one in the same. Their is no arguing it.

I like how that site you linked lists WB and Paramount as "TBA (considered likely based on CES HD-DVD announcements in January 2005)" Also nothing really announced but they assume that it will be the same as HD-DVD.

I'm amused that they have not update Disney to say "Expected to support HD-DVD, but no announced titles at this time."

I wouldn't hold your breath on much if any support form WB and Paramount when it comes to Blu-Ray.  
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