Topic: Katamari Developer denounces revolution

[NWR_pap64]

While I loved both Katamary games I agree the guy is VERY full of it. To say that a controller DOESN'T aid in the enjoyment of a game is to be completely ignorant. I mean, try playing a game with a really bad control scheme. See how much FUN you'll get out of it!

And I agree about Ian Sane. Dude, why are you SO negative about Nintendo? Sure, they are NOT perfect and they have messed up way too many times, but why bash every single thing they do? You need to realize that innovation IS needed in order to evolve gaming.

Let's use that mentality of yours with the N64. How would gaming be like today if Nintendo didn't create a controller that worked PERFECTLY in a 3D game? We would still be clunkily controlling a character with the d-pad or a joystick. How about the guy that came up with First person shooters? Or even Tetris??

If it weren't for innovation we wouldn't have half the stuff we have today. Innovation is the thing that fuels our life. It makes our lives better, more easier and enjoyable. True, innovation isn't always needed or works, but someone HAS to reinvent the wheel in gaming.

One of the problems this generation is that what we are basically getting is highly souped up versions of what was established this generation. How can the PS3 and XBOX 360 be considered "next generation" when the games they have is the same stuff we got last generation? Nintendo is TRULY going next gen. They aren't just going to update the graphics chip or the RAM, they are going to update the game we play games.

Wake up and smell the reality, Ian. THE GAMING INDUSTRY NEEDS INNOVATION MORE THAN EVER. Deal with it...

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: mantidor

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane"I also really hate the example of a single game being a reason why the current setup should stay"

Fair enough.  Here's some more from the last generation:

Pikmin
Metroid Prime
Ikaruga
Devil May Cry
Grand Theft Auto 3
Warioware

You can be negative all you want, but that list that you just gave, every single of those games would be simple awesome for the remote, its not just to make innovative games, is making the games better.

Yeah I agree all those games would be better with a revmote.  GTA3 and MP would benefit from an easier to aim and look around peripheral.  Score one for the revmote.

Pikmin would benefit from the preciseness and accuracy of the revmote.  PIcking up a specific group would be much easier.  Also I can imagine flinging PIkmin around with a flick of the revmote.  Score another pt for the revmote.

Ikaruga would also be a fun game to play by using the tilting functionality of the revmote.  Tilt to turn left and right and move/forward backward.  But from what I know about the game the setup it uses now seems to be fairly simple and might work with the revmote titled as an NES pad.  

Warioware of course is a game that could take on a whole 'nother dimension with the revmote.  You can see in what directions the GBA and DS versions of the game went with their tilting and precise/accurate touchscreen control respectively.  BAg the revmote another pt.

I don't know much about Devil May Cry.  Is that a 3d fighting game?  If so then cha-ching!!!

The beauty of the revmote too is that it's going to allow additonal peripherals to be attached to it.   Take a trip to the arcade and past arcades.  You'll see all sorts of different control devices for all sorts of games.  I think many of  these control devices made the game or at least made the experience more immersive.  

Way back when when Battlezone came out you learned thru a 'submarine scope' of sorts and you had 2 flight sticks for control.  That really added to the immersion factor.

Steering wheels add to the fun of many racing games.  I'm just finding that out today.  I'm not sure why I never picked one up before, but man it really makes some of these racing games unique and more enjoyable.  

You've seen how trackballs are inherent in the enjoyablity of arcade titles from Centipede to Golden Tee.  

Not to mention NIntendo is going to put out a classic controller shell.  Somehow they have to make their  N64 games playable  on the virtual console.

And lastly videogame console controls have gradually been refined and added onto over the years.  From the ATari 2600 joystick with one button to today's 2 analog thumbsticks, d-pad, 4 face buttons and 4 triggers, etc.  I don't think it should suprise anyone that someone out there especially Nintendo is trying to further videogame control.    

[Djunknown]

Just as how Nintendo is walking the beat to their own drum,  Keita Takahashi is walking to his. And just as how Takahashi is not interested in the Revmote, others like Suda 51 (Of Killer 7 and Samurai Champloo fame for those with short memories.) flock to it. Can't expect everyone to embrace change so easily...

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How would gaming be like today if Nintendo didn't create a controller that worked PERFECTLY in a 3D game?

I hate answer a question with a question, but what if Nintendo unveiled the the analog stick with no games, just a concept and theory to go with it? The gaming press and co. would say Nintendo lost their mind; the joystick's been around since the Atari days, so why go back to it? Thankfully, they didn't. We're in a point in time where we don't know if the Revmote is going to be a hit, let alone 'save' gaming.

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How can the PS3 and XBOX 360 be considered "next generation" when the games they have is the same stuff we got last generation?

Because there's no way that Elder Scrolls IV could be done even on an Xbox. That massive land battle in Kameo can't be done on the 'Cube.  Can't say much about PS3, its been hiding somewhere...

[wandering]

Wow, I'm so glad this thread exists, otherwise I wouldn't know that

a)Takahashi is just criticizing the rev because he's jealous.
b)Takahashi isn't even that talented.
c)Ian Sane is actually obsessive compulsive.

Anyway. On topic, I don't take Takahashi's comments too seriously. The criticizm that Nintendo is focusing too much on the controller, to me, is kind of silly. Who cares what the focus is on? Sony focuses too much on the synergistic Toy Story power of their system's graphical capabilities. The important thing is: the rev's controller can be used for interesting new game ideas, and, at the same time, is flexible enough to allow for traditional game design.

[Kairon]

In my opinion, the massive land battles of Nintey-Nine Nights amount to little more than Dynasty Warriors on the PS2. And the world of Elder Scrolls IV exposes plenty of neat open-endedness, but does it give you any new gameplay options that you couldn't do in Elder Scrolls III or in the GTAs?

Seriously, I haven't played either game, but explain to me how these next generation systems provide us with anything more than more eye-candy or open-ended worlds that were already achieved last gen.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

Wandering, how can you sound so sensible and even-handed with Jack Thompson as your Avatar?!?!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Kairon


Seriously, I haven't played either game, but explain to me how these next generation systems provide us with anything more than more eye-candy or open-ended worlds that were already achieved last gen.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Well yeah, but they could. The early PS2 games weren't exactly sparkling innovations either... I'm sure there'll be some new genres that the enhanced processing power and RAM make possible, and just some new stuff that would've been possible before but no one thought of yet.

But I don't think it's an either/or proposition. I'm still not convinced that the difference between the Rev's power and it's competitors is that significant, since most of their extra horsepower will go unused in a standard resolution environment. The Rev's jump in processing power and RAM compared to this generations offerings is non-trivial, and it will probably allow for some fascinating new features in and of itself. Then we also get all the things that wouldn't be possible under the traditional control scheme on top of it all.

[wandering]

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Wandering, how can you sound so sensible and even-handed with Jack Thompson as your Avatar?!?!

Ahaha.

(I'm sure I don't have to say this, but, I don't actually agree with Thompson.)

edit: thanks, btw. For the sensible and even-handed thing, I mean.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
In my opinion, the massive land battles of Nintey-Nine Nights amount to little more than Dynasty Warriors on the PS2. And the world of Elder Scrolls IV exposes plenty of neat open-endedness, but does it give you any new gameplay options that you couldn't do in Elder Scrolls III or in the GTAs?

Seriously, I haven't played either game, but explain to me how these next generation systems provide us with anything more than more eye-candy or open-ended worlds that were already achieved last gen.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

EXACTLY!

This is the point I was trying to make.

True, I agree that powerful hardware will make what was impossible in this gen possible and even expand on that. But in terms of gameplay you can have the most powerful hardware and still be playing a game designed with a 1980s ideal.

Better graphics, expanded hardware and bigger mediums are important, yes, but creativity and innovation are also important as well. If there is no one daring enough to be creative what's teh point of having the newest and best hardware if all the games are basically the same?

And to answer your question, djunknown, yes, Nintendo hasn't truly shown what the Rev. controller can do, leaving many of us in the air regarding it's features. But a lot of developers are impressed with it, and if there's one thing the DS proved is that Nintendo can take an idea that is too farfetched and make it logical and fun, so at least in my case I can't help but think that this could do wonders for games.

[wandering]

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Because there's no way that Elder Scrolls IV could be done even on an Xbox. That massive land battle in Kameo can't be done on the 'Cube. Can't say much about PS3, its been hiding somewhere...

If I could respond to this also, we don't know whether or not these things can be done on the rev yet. And, more importantly, these things are, really, pretty unimpressive. Saying 'OO! Look! 100 enemies on screen!' or, 'OO! Look! Slightly wider-open environnments!' every once in a while is all well and good, but...look at Rogue Leader. EVERYTHING about that game's graphics was amazing when it came out.

[TrueNerd]

This is a shock to me, really. I've read other interviews with Keita Takahashi and he was basically saying the exact same things Nintendo has been saying the last two years. Simplicity this, innovation that. To hear him speak negatively of the Revmote is a contradiction to his philosophy. And for the record, he didn't want to do a sequel, Namco made him do it, and he had nothing to do with Me and My Katamari.

However, his critique matters not. He's not making anymore games. He's into playground design now.  

[ruby_onix]

I'm sure you guys know that I don't think the Revmote is perfect (too image-conscious IMO). But 3D space control has the potential to be the next analog. Bigger than that, even.

Considering this guy built his entire game around analog, he should be on his hands and knees, kissing Nintendo's feet in gratitute for pioneering the analog stick. If he's not already drooling over the Revmote, he should at least be watching it very closely. But to dismiss it out of hand because it's hype is too big? Because it's supposed to be too good? That's just crazy.

Oh wait. He didn't build his game around analog. He built it around dual analog. He's kissing Sony's feet for stealing Nintendo's idea. He's waiting for Sony to steal 3D space control, which will be his signal that it's a working technology, and that it's okay for him to like it.

[Infernal Monkey]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane

Looking at the 1UP article on this he apparently sh!ts on the Katamari sequels too so he might not have even been involved with the PSP KD.

He was, but he didn't want to. He didn't even want to make a sequel, but Namco was like "come aaaawwn" and showed him some money, so he sold his soul to the devil for a donut. Only to complain about Nintendo's controllers because PSP wasn't able to do justice to the series.

Kinda like how Midway and Acclaim blamed Nintendo because their PS2 and Xbox games weren't selling.

[ThePerm]

the ps2 controller is d-pad centric...the revolution controller is d-pad centric....

[Ian Sane]

"Why must control schemes so powerfully intuitive and mass market be related to add-ons? Imagine the widespread appeal of DDR and Guitar Hero, but sold as core titles to a wide audience instead of as nice little niche add-on titles."

Because they have very specialized control mechanisms.  The most intuitive control scheme for any game would be custom to it with no buttons that don't do anything, like an arcade game.  But a console controller has to be more generic so that it will work with a wide variety of games.  So something like DDR or Guitar Hero has to be niche because their controllers are far too specialized and won't work with any other games.

[Bill Aurion]

Or they could be released as cheap add-on peripherals to the Revmote so people don't have to spend a fortune for "specialized controls"...

[Rhoq]

As soon as the Revolution gains popularity he'll be itching to have Katamari grace the Nintendo console and praise the controller along the way.

[KDR_11k]

"We don't need the Revolution, two analog sticks to control one ball of crap is perfectly intuitive!"
Katamari on the Rev wouldn't need two directional inputs to be played.

One thing that has always bugged me about the Revolution is this attitude that Nintendo has to reinvent the wheel in order to innovate as if it's impossible to innovate with the existing setup. I think that attitude is total crap.

Eh, yes, but how else are you going to sell a new piece of hardware to the people? Would you rather have another Gamecube? "Why should we buy your console?" "Um, uh... We got Mario! Isn't that great?" The new controller isn't just attracting users, it's attracting developers as well. If Nintendo tried to steer the same course as the competition they'd end up with another Gamecube, the Rev controller is their primary selling point both to developers and users. Without it they'd have another pointless console the market doesn't need.

[Dirk Temporo]

I don't like that he's trashing Nintendo for focusing on the controller, but it doesn't seem to bug him in the least that the other two are focusing on graphics. Double standard FTW.

[GregLee]

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Originally posted by: trip1eX
Steering wheels add to the fun of many racing games.  I'm just finding that out today.  I'm not sure why I never picked one up before, but man it really makes some of these racing games unique and more enjoyable.  

Speaking of which, do you think we'll be able to plug the Logitech Speed Force wheel into the Revolution and have it work right?

[KDR_11k]

Does it have a GC plug? Then you can use it if you're playing GC games and probably some emulated games. If not, you can probably attach a wheel to the rod and let the gyroscopes work as your wheel.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: GregLee

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Originally posted by: trip1eX
Steering wheels add to the fun of many racing games.  I'm just finding that out today.  I'm not sure why I never picked one up before, but man it really makes some of these racing games unique and more enjoyable.  

Speaking of which, do you think we'll be able to plug the Logitech Speed Force wheel into the Revolution and have it work right?

My guess would be they'd just have some sort of wireless version.  

[MaryJane]

This is interesting thread, but i can't read all of it since i'm going out again so i'll just hope no one has said this and someone can find enjoyment in it.

GameInformer played a Revolution game, granted they didn't play full levels, but they played nonetheless, and they liked it. did this guy play with it? i ask seriously cuz i wouldn't be too surprised if he hasn't because he approached Ninty with an idea and they said, no. that'd be funny, idie devs are getting kits, and this guy gets shunned and pissed.

or maybe he's one of the people who truly don't like the idea.
You can't please everybody all the time.  

[Hostile Creation]

"I don't like that he's trashing Nintendo for focusing on the controller, but it doesn't seem to bug him in the least that the other two are focusing on graphics. Double standard FTW."

Especially when Katamari's look is so simplistic.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Because there's no way that Elder Scrolls IV could be done even on an Xbox. That massive land battle in Kameo can't be done on the 'Cube.  Can't say much about PS3, its been hiding somewhere...

But it can be done and was done on the PC, I don't know about others but I want console games to be unique experiences from the PC, not a strong reliance on graphical horsepower. Instead there should be a focus on different gaming experiences from what the PC has to offer (though it is fine to have a PC port here and there if need be). Elder Scrolls IV is a fun game (I have it for PC) but it isn't what I would call a truly next generation game, it basically is a revamped ESIII with larger and more detailed worlds.