Topic: Rare's New Xbox360 game revealed!!

[Ian Sane]

"96, 98, and 01, Rare only released one N64 game each."

Well I don't think it's very fair to count 1996 or 2001 since ther were switchover years from one console to the other.  The N64 only existed for a few months in 1996 and in 2001 Conker was one of the only N64 games released period.  I don't think EAD released any N64 games in 2001 for example.

"F-Zero GX, Donkey Konga and MGS:TS were all excellent games and credits to the cube's lineup."

I agree but none of those games really demonstrated the unique abilities of each developer.  They were all assigned what otherwise would have someone else's work.

I think what I'm really missing is Rare when they were good.  Deep down I'm pretty pissed off that when I purchased a Cube, Rare's support contributed to my decision but I didn't get what I was more or less promised.  It's kind of like quality games from Rare was part of my "terms" for continuing to support Nintendo for another generation.  I think I would have prefered to discover that Rare wasn't any good anymore myself, rather then have this "what if?" scenario where they might have released some good Cube stuff but we'll never know because Nintendo sold them and their Xbox output isn't an accurate representation of what they could have accomplished with Nintendo's help.  Hell Star Fox Adventures has so many outside factors like switching platforms and Nintendo shoehorning an unrelated franchise into it that that might not even be a good representation.  Who knows how Dinosaur Planet as an N64 game would have turned out?

[capamerica]

You forget thou, Retro's games are Freaken AMAZING, while Rare's games are par at best.
Anyone can pump out cruddy game after cruddy game every year. But I much rather have a company that takes their time and creates an AAA title in 2 years.

Retro has easily replaced Rare, Unlike Rare Retro's games have turned a profit and development cost were a fraction of any of Rare's games, while Rare on the other hand barely broke even.

The Rare you knew is long dead. Its time you finally come to terms with this. Rare's last 21 games for a lack of a better word, Sucked! They were not great games, The only game that was somewhat special was Perfect Dark, But it was just a rehash of Goldeneye. Rare hasn't done anything special since 1998.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

After one original Xbox game, one N64 remake, one high-budget so-so shooter, and one high-budget sparkly lifeless platformer, I don't think you're missing much.  Comedy doesn't replace "meh."

After seeing the Viva Piñata trailer, I say their sense of comedy hasn't been intact for quite some time (think of the aweful CG animated kid's films in the past few years; I don't think the Rare of old didn't settle for the obvious and lame like that).

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think I would have prefered to discover that Rare wasn't any good anymore myself, rather then have this "what if?" scenario where they might have released some good Cube stuff but we'll never know because Nintendo sold them and their Xbox output isn't an accurate representation of what they could have accomplished with Nintendo's help.  Hell Star Fox Adventures has so many outside factors like switching platforms and Nintendo shoehorning an unrelated franchise into it that that might not even be a good representation.  Who knows how Dinosaur Planet as an N64 game would have turned out?

So Nintendo's influence would have improved Rare's games, even though Nintendo's influence is part of the reason Rare's last Nintendo game sucked?

Another of Nintendo's influences on Rare was forcing them to make Disney licensed games when they didn't want to.

[jasonditz]

Companies don't make games, people do... we got our Perfect Dark sequel, and it was called Timesplitters 2.

Maudlinly looking back on the Rare that was is silly... it was gone long before Nintendo cut them loose, and I find it really hard to believe Nintendo's influence could've turned the second stringers that remained at the company into anything more than a considerly more expensive n-Space.

[Hocotate]

This does look interesting.... I don't know why, but my first impression was "They've been playing Pikmin 2." I've lost faith in Rare after "Grabed by the Ghoulies" but this looks nice from the screens.

[IceCold]

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Different developers provide their own little touches that provide variety to a lineup. Lately Nintendo has robbed games of those touches by having talented third parties working on Nintendo franchises instead of something that lets their own uniqueness stand out.

We've gone over this before, Ian.. Nintendo gave their franchises away to improve third party relationships. The licence would guarantee sales, and now the third parties are a lot more friendly towards Nintendo. Namco (Star Fox & Mario Baseball), SEGA (F-Zero), Capcom (Minish Cap) are all closer to Nintendo as a result. And going into the Revolution era, don't you think that their support is crucial?

[jasonditz]

Lets not forget letting Square Enix make a Mario Basketball title...

[Ian Sane]

"We've gone over this before, Ian.. Nintendo gave their franchises away to improve third party relationships. The licence would guarantee sales, and now the third parties are a lot more friendly towards Nintendo. Namco (Star Fox & Mario Baseball), SEGA (F-Zero), Capcom (Minish Cap) are all closer to Nintendo as a result. And going into the Revolution era, don't you think that their support is crucial?"

Their support is only worthwhile if they then go and make their own stuff.  If they continue making Nintendo stuff their support doesn't mean anything.  But we have to wait and see on that.  One other problem though is that Nintendo's overemphasis on franchises is training some of their fanbase to only accept sequels or spinoffs.  Plus market share is what gets third parties on board and this practice didn't help that.  Plus third parties have to feel confident their own games will sell.  Right now they're all afraid that they have to have Mario associated with them or they won't sell.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"We've gone over this before, Ian.. Nintendo gave their franchises away to improve third party relationships. The licence would guarantee sales, and now the third parties are a lot more friendly towards Nintendo. Namco (Star Fox & Mario Baseball), SEGA (F-Zero), Capcom (Minish Cap) are all closer to Nintendo as a result. And going into the Revolution era, don't you think that their support is crucial?"

Their support is only worthwhile if they then go and make their own stuff.  If they continue making Nintendo stuff their support doesn't mean anything.  But we have to wait and see on that.  One other problem though is that Nintendo's overemphasis on franchises is training some of their fanbase to only accept sequels or spinoffs.  Plus market share is what gets third parties on board and this practice didn't help that.  Plus third parties have to feel confident their own games will sell.  Right now they're all afraid that they have to have Mario associated with them or they won't sell.

And?

Namco gave us Tales, Baten Kaitos, and so on...

Sega gave us Sonic games, Super Monkey ball, etc.

and do I even need to get into everything Capcom gave us?

In fact, looking at our third party library for the Cube it seems like almost the whole of the meaningful contribution of third party exclusives came from the companies Nintendo rewarded with those licensed titles.

[IceCold]

And's Square's DS (and hopefully Revolution) support has been exceptional..

[wandering]

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It may be just a fluke coincidence that Rare's leaving and Nintendo going franchise crazy coincide. If Nintendo didn't do insane things like having Sega and Namco work on Nintendo games or having Silicon Knights work on remakes them maybe I wouldn't care so much about Rare leaving. When Nintendo had Rare there was some variety in Nintendo's games. Since Rare left almost everything has this bland homogenous look, feel, and style. Maybe the problem is not a lack of Rare but just Nintendo having no idea what the purpose of third party support is.

It's not a coincidence. Nintendo has been hurting with the GameCube. They've tried out all kinds of original games, but franchise games have been the only things that have sold. GameCube has not the system to start new franchises on - Nintendo doesn't have enough troops to try and conquer new territory, they need to regroup and build up their army. And get rid of any worthless moneysinks that they can. Worthless moneysinks like Rare.

If the DS is any indication, the rev will be different.    

[Smash_Brother]

The only way we could truly determine what Rare would have offered Nintendo is by looking what they offered the xbox, which, of course, is jack-friggin'-squat.

I don't get the argument. Rare would have added to Nintendo's lineup? Just like the last 3-4 games they made for Nintendo platforms, which were StarFox Adventures, DK64, Banjo-Tooie and Conker.

None of them earned Nintendo much in the way of sales, praise or recognition.

I think, Ian, that this is your natural desire to see everything which Nintendo does in a negative light which is interfering with your ability to note the painfully obvious. The painfully obvious being that Rare's work went downhill LONG before they were sold off like the dead weight that they are.

[Smash_Brother]

Also, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Rare included some grotesque piñata destruction.

If Conker's BFD taught me anything, it's that Rare relishes the act of making people watch something unpleasant. The game mentions attracting the right predators to scare away the wrong ones, and supposedly "chocolate coins" were mentioned which would likely constitute the innards of these creatures.

I don't think the graphic depiction of a Fox piñata tearing up a rabbit piñata is too much of a stretch for Rare. It's the same logic Cartoon Network used in Samurai Jack when he came upon villages of slaughtered robots with electronic parts and oil strewn everywhere. It's not technically the entrails of a living thing, but it's still the innards of something which emulates life.

[wandering]

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If Conker's BFD taught me anything, it's that Rare relishes the act of making people watch something unpleasant.

haha, and that's what I love about them. Remember in JFG, when the spaceship landed on dancing tribals?

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: wandering
haha, and that's what I love about them. Remember in JFG, when the spaceship landed on dancing tribals?

I only rented the game, but yes, I do.

I mention it in this case because this game is supposed to pander to children. I think it'd be interesting to watch Rare try to explain to angry parents whose children are scarred for life that the fox and rabbit are both made of papier-mâché so it doesn't matter that one is tearing the other to pieces.

[wandering]

Well, that's Rare. Even Banjo Kazooie was pretty twisted.

...I don't know if that's good or not. I was raised on technically-clean-but-actually-quite-dark entertainment, and I turned out just fine!

Well. Maybe not fine. But I haven't gone on any murderous rampages or anything.  

[Nephilim]

I dont know what you guys are talking about, after watching the trailer of the tv show
I doubt it will have many twisted moments
alot of 3D toons are hit and miss these days, about 3/4 seem to be a mainstream failure in the last year
hudson seems lame, hes a 3d version of johnny bravo that hangs around dorky animals  
donkey kong had a 3d series, didnt heap donkey kong 64 sell well... im sure rare are aware they could be making the same mistake twice thu

[Ian Sane]

"They've tried out all kinds of original games, but franchise games have been the only things that have sold."

Which original games are we talking about?  Pikmin and Eternal Darkness are the only ones I can think of prior to Nintendo going sequel nuts.  Animal Crossing I suppose counts as well since it was new for North America.  If Nintendo can't market worth a damn then they're never going to sell a non-franchise game ever again.  Nintendo can't say that non-franchise games don't sell when their advertising is complete horsesh!t.  Nor can they say that when if they train their fanbase to only accept franchise games.

"I don't get the argument. Rare would have added to Nintendo's lineup? Just like the last 3-4 games they made for Nintendo platforms, which were StarFox Adventures, DK64, Banjo-Tooie and Conker."

Technically those aren't the last four games Rare made with Nintendo.  You conveniently forgot Perfect Dark which came out well after DK64.  You forgot Mickey's Speedway USA as well though I imagine few of us would count that.  If we do then I would say that of Rare's last five games three of them were fantastic.  Of the two ones I didn't like both of them had outside factors affecting development.  Mickey's Speedway was just a contractally required title due to a deal Nintendo had with Disney.  Thus I can be expected that Rare had no real passion in the product.  Star Fox Adventures switched platforms partially through development and had the Star Fox franchise shoehorned into it.  Those two factors likely contributed to the end result.  I know if Nintendo forced me to use a franchise I didn't want to use the resulting game probably wouldn't be my best work either.

1999 was probably the only year on the N64 that I would say Rare had an off year and DK64 and JFG seemed well meaning but just didn't turn out that well.  I would consider them decent games still.  Dk64 was too ambitious and JFG was a concept that just didn't turn out that well (though playing it now I think it would work fantastically with twin analog sticks).  EAD has had off years before but no one would suggest dumping them.  Of their initial Cube offerings I thought Luigi's Mansion was weak, Pikmin was great, and Super Mario Sunshine was underwhelming.  So only 1/3 titles delivered.  I'd say EAD overall actually had a pretty weak output on the Cube.  Even Wind Waker wasn't quite the masterpiece one expects from that developer.  Pikmin 1&2 are probably the only Cube games made by EAD that I felt were up to their N64 standards.  But they're still worthwhile and they're still a valuable asset and it's still believable that they can bust out something amazing.  So I didn't think Rare was finished just because their one Cube game sucked but most of their last few N64 games didn't.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
You conveniently forgot Perfect Dark which came out well after DK64.

Actually, I didn't know that it came out after, but I don't see what was so special about it. In fact, the FPS which gamers remember is Goldeneye which was done much earlier in their cycle.

And you ignored the other half of the point: what has Rare made after leaving Nintendo? Answer: garbage. Grabbed by the Ghoulies sucked and sucked hard. PD0 was a "tide-you-over-til-Halo3-arrives" FPS, with Call of Duty 2 being called a better FPS than PD0. Kameo was a big sack of "meh" from everything I hear. Conker was a port and the multiplayer sucked.

I cannot see Rare as a loss when they only produced ONE game for the GC (but promised around 4) and are producing garbage for MS with predictability you could set your watch to.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"They've tried out all kinds of original games, but franchise games have been the only things that have sold."

Which original games are we talking about?  Pikmin and Eternal Darkness are the only ones I can think of prior to Nintendo going sequel nuts.  Animal Crossing I suppose counts as well since it was new for North America.  If Nintendo can't market worth a damn then they're never going to sell a non-franchise game ever again.  Nintendo can't say that non-franchise games don't sell when their advertising is complete horsesh!t.  Nor can they say that when if they train their fanbase to only accept franchise games.

How about Geist, Odama and Chibi Robo? Technically you could count games like Donkey Konga and Battlion Wars too: just because there's a recognizable franchise attached to the game doesn't mean it's not original. Of course anyone who says original games can't sell well on the Cube forgot about Viewtiful Joe

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1999 was probably the only year on the N64 that I would say Rare had an off year and DK64 and JFG seemed well meaning but just didn't turn out that well.  I would consider them decent games still.  Dk64 was too ambitious and JFG was a concept that just didn't turn out that well (though playing it now I think it would work fantastically with twin analog sticks).  EAD has had off years before but no one would suggest dumping them.  Of their initial Cube offerings I thought Luigi's Mansion was weak, Pikmin was great, and Super Mario Sunshine was underwhelming.  So only 1/3 titles delivered.  I'd say EAD overall actually had a pretty weak output on the Cube.  Even Wind Waker wasn't quite the masterpiece one expects from that developer.  Pikmin 1&2 are probably the only Cube games made by EAD that I felt were up to their N64 standards.  But they're still worthwhile and they're still a valuable asset and it's still believable that they can bust out something amazing.  So I didn't think Rare was finished just because their one Cube game sucked but most of their last few N64 games didn't.

You forgot both Animal Crossing and Mario Kart: DD.

And say what you will about Luigi's Mansion and Mario Sunshine, they sold... and sold in big numbers. When Rares failures start selling millions and millions of copies I'll agree Nintendo should've spent hundreds of millions of dollars to keep them.

[blackfootsteps]

Although Animal Crossing was basically an enhanced port of a 64 game.

[Ian Sane]

"How about Geist, Odama and Chibi Robo?"

I specfied as prior to Nintendo going sequel crazy which I feel coincides with Nintendo selling Rare.  Those came out much later.

"You forgot both Animal Crossing and Mario Kart: DD."

I wasn't specifically mentioning every EAD release for the Cube.  I was just using those three as an example since they were the first three on the Cube.

"And you ignored the other half of the point: what has Rare made after leaving Nintendo?"

I didn't ignore it.  I just didn't mention it because I've already given my answer for it.  I think a key part of what made Rare great was that collaboration with Nintendo.  Since the MS era Rare games don't have any Nintendo involvement I don't see them as a representation of what Rare would have created had they remained with Nintendo.  Plus even then Rare had to deal with switching consoles partway through a generation which can affect game development.  Kameo switched from the Cube to the Xbox to the Xbox 360.  Games that hop around from platform to platform like that don't usually turn out that good.  Would PD0 have been a "tide-you-over-til-Halo3-arrives" FPS if there it was on a Nintendo console with no Halo 3 to tide you over til?

"I don't see what was so special about it. In fact, the FPS which gamers remember is Goldeneye which was done much earlier in their cycle."

Goldeneye is more remembered because more people played it and since PD is a direct followup Goldeneye was also more original.  PD is basically a sequel so it naturally won't have the same impact and it was released towards the end of the N64's life when not kid friendly games had no chance in hell of selling worth a damn.  The only flaw you can really fault PD for is the framerate goes wonky in certain situations like co-op or if you have too many bots.  But even then I like the fact that Rare through those extras in anyway and if I choose to deal with a low framerate for non-essential extras I can.  However you can play the one player game and deathmatch with four players with virtually no problems.  It's a damn crime that Halo is highly praised when it's only at best a competent FPS while Perfect Dark has faded into obscurity despite being probably the best console FPS ever made and for doing things in 2000 that Halo 2 pretended was brand new.

If Perfect Dark was a 2001 Cube title instead of a 2000 N64 title Nintendo would have crushed the Xbox.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane If Perfect Dark was a 2001 Cube title instead of a 2000 N64 title Nintendo would have crushed the Xbox.

That's debatable.

It was the LAN parties which made Halo so popular. PD0 wouldn't have had those, and I've played PD0 all the way through: par, at best.

As for the collaboration, it didn't save SFA, JFG, DK64, or Banjo-Tooie. Rare clearly works harder on games THEY want to make. I don't think Nintendo's help made all that much of a difference because Nintendo's franchises turn out poorly when made by Rare (DK64 and SFA).

The last good game Rare made with a Nintendo license was DKC3 or so. Everything else which is largely considered a "good" game is made under a different license or one of Rare's own concepts.

[Hostile Creation]

Ian is for some reason in denial about Rare sucking.  Probably a childhood thing.