Topic: Mario Revolution

[KDR_11k]

Gestures can be better than buttons. I use mouse gestures in Firefox all the time and it makes me three times as fast as if I had to use buttons.

Are gestures faster than pressing mouse buttons? Reaching over to the keybaord doesn't count because that's a different device. My mouse has 8 buttons. A lot of stuff fits on it.

Think about the combinations you can't do well with buttons that can be done with wrist + button presses.

So how would the wrist factor in? Wrist up = layout 1, wrist centered = layout 2, wrist low = layout 3? Confuse the player by changing the button functions depending on how he holds the controller?

Analog input is bad for digital functions and must NEVER be used as a shift key. Imagine the GC OOT port had no X,Y,Z support and you'd have to use the c-stick for using all items. Fun, eh? Now to top that, imagine having to hold up on the c-stick in order to maintain lock-on while using the shoulder buttons for attacking and some other action bound to moving the c-stick to the sides while holding up.

The gyro should only be used for 1:1 input translation.

Besides, if moving up would make Mario jump, how do you control the jump height? By moving higher? But Mario doesn't rise as fast as you can move the controller so he'd fall in a moment completely disconnected to your controller timing. Or would he drop when you stop moving the controller? What if you move the controller too fast and reach the limit of your arms before Mario reaches his maximum height? How do you handle a rapid series of jumps? Would you require the player to move the controller down between jumps?

[Ian Sane]

"I can't believe you honestly think Nintendo - the one company responsible for working 3D camers, lock on systems, and redifining how games work over and over - would be stupid enough to release something that didn't allow for accuracy. They are not that stupid."

The remote will undoubtably be accurate and responsive.  But like an analog stick there will be times where it makes no sense to use it.  It's inaccurate in the sense that when you have a million different points that can be interpretted it's harder to make sure you did the correct thing then when you have a simple on/off button.  What if you try to go straight up but you end up going a little diagonal up so it doesn't interpret your movement correctly?  With a button that never happens.  A digital button is pushed or it isn't and there's no margin of error unless your controller is busted or the game has bugs in it.

It's the same issue as playing a d-pad game with the analog stick.  The analog stick is incredibly responsive when the action on the screen directly mimmicks what you're doing.  You push a little bit the guy walks slow.  You feel in control.  But when it's just go or don't go the analog stick feels wrong.  You don't feel like you're in control.  Motion control only feels intuitive if the game reacts exactly as your movements suggest.  If it's just a button push assigned to a gesture you don't feel like you have that control.

[Zach]

Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Um.

Well wrist = another muscle entirely.

Think about the combinations you can't do well with buttons that can be done with wrist + button presses.

Oh wait, you can't, because you've made up your mind it's a stupid gimm!ck.

I can't believe you honestly think Nintendo - the one company responsible for working 3D camers, lock on systems, and redifining how games work over and over - would be stupid enough to release something that didn't allow for accuracy.  They are not that stupid.

Thanks for playing, Ian.  Please don't buy a Revolution.  I don't want to have to kick your ass on SSBM only to hear you whine that OMFG I CAN'T DO GIMARCKS CONNTROLARS!!1

I dont think that is what Ian was saying.  The thing is that the jump works fine as a digital input, making it a flick of the wrist simply overcomplicates things.  The point of the mario games should not be to move the controller just to the right height, so that you die if you dont get it exactly right.  The jump does not benifit in any way from controlling it by flicking the controller.  The motion sensor should be used only for actions that can actually benifit from such control.

Its not that the controller is innacurate, its that people arent necissarily(sp?) accurate.  Would you want to die in a mario game simply because you didnt move the controller at just the right angle or speed to make him jump?

Edit: I feel like I need to help Ian out because of posts like Strell's (no offense), he gets trashed a lot on these forums, because he can be very pessimistic.  I have to admit, this place has a lot of people who practically worship nintendo, and it is always good to have someone to sometimes questions what is being done, Ian is always there to make a good argument.  Without him, it could get pretty dull around here.

I dont think the design of the controllers is very sparkling innovationy.  But the applications of the controller have the potential to be very sparkling innovationy, especially if tasks that are best done digitally are incorporated into the motion sensor control

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Um.

Well wrist = another muscle entirely.

Think about the combinations you can't do well with buttons that can be done with wrist + button presses.

Oh wait, you can't, because you've made up your mind it's a stupid gimm!ck.

I can't believe you honestly think Nintendo - the one company responsible for working 3D camers, lock on systems, and redifining how games work over and over - would be stupid enough to release something that didn't allow for accuracy.  They are not that stupid.

Thanks for playing, Ian.  Please don't buy a Revolution.  I don't want to have to kick your ass on SSBM only to hear you whine that OMFG I CAN'T DO GIMARCKS CONNTROLARS!!1

Geez, I agree with Ian in this case, there's unique functionality and there's sparkling innovations... here's the difference:

Mr. Driller: Drill Spirits touch screen control is sparkling innovationy... it's an effort to map a control system that was working fine to a device where it doesn't belong. The end result is a less crisp play experience.

Pac Pix touch screen control is unique and meaningful... the game would be impossible with a standard control system and is well suited to the device.

Lets face facts: there will be sparkling innovationy games for the Rev... there will be games that map the Revmote to functions that it's not well suited to, there will be times when you thnk: boy, that would've worked way better if they did it the old way. System selling games like Mario should not be among them.

And I think Nintendo gets that... look at Mario Kart DS: now imagine how it would've played if they'd tried to map steering to the touch screen using the thumbstrap to make it simulate an analog stick.

[Smash_Brother]

I don't think the new Mario would do something like that.

That'd be forcing the concept on players. Mario 64 on the DS didn't force you to use the touch screen in some new aspect of the gameplay. There were some games that forced it, but I doubt the new SMB on the DS will force it.

Moving Mario with a gesture is not fun, but using gestures to make Mario do things like swim, punch, throw fireballs, etc. could be fun.

Also, enough with the bit about the arm fatigue. DDR tires out your feet and yet people reacted by strengthening their feet. It doesn't take much more effort to rest your elbow on the arm of a chair and move your wrist than it does to hold a controller and press the buttons.

[jasonditz]

Incidentally, what the hell mods?! Why do we have to spell g1mm1ck like some warez dudez not to get it changed like that?

And you still allow terms like cockmonger... care to explain that?  

[Strell]

The thing is that ALL the naysayers are talking like Nintendo hasn't thought this through.  Their entirely next-gen livelihood staked on a bet?  I don't think Nintendo - who has been in the business the longest and is the most profitable - would be that stupid.

If you can sit there and make assumptions and conclusions about what won't work, then fine, I can make conclusions and assumptions on how I don't think Nintendo is that stupid.  

They aren't going to throw Rev capability onto every last damn input method on every game.  You'll still jump with a button, but you'll use the Rev to control the camera.  Any damn fool can make up situations where it does and doesn't work to use Revmote input.  But it takes a total moron to sit back and think "Gosh, EVERYTHING is going to be gesture based now."

Criminy.  

Again, people said the same bullshit about mice on computers.

As for tired arms, you people need to be introduced to something called Ping Pong.  Or hell, tennis.  There's whole world associations aimed at those sports, and the players aren't exactly supermen.  Maybe you are just a total wuss if you can't put up with it.  Let's not take into account that, more than likely, you'll be doing wrist movements, not whole arm movements.

I swear the negatives people make up are so astoundly devoid of logic...

And I object to the word gimm!ck, cockmonger!  

[Zach]

I completely agree cockmonger, nintendo knows exactly what they are doing.  I do not think that they would make this controller just for the hell of it.  I am sure they planned, and made a controller that they are sure they could use to enhance all of their games.  They were probably under some pressure to come up with something new, but even so, they wouldnt make a controller that they would never actually use well.  The question is, whether or not the capabilities of the controller will be used well by not only nintendo, but also all of the third parties.

Edit: keep in mind that when I say whether the capabilities will be used well, Im referring to using it well when the game calls for the feature AND knowing when not to use the features.  

[ShyGuy]

Forget Nintendo, has Miyamoto ever let you down?

[Ian Sane]

"Mario 64 on the DS didn't force you to use the touch screen in some new aspect of the gameplay."

They did try to map analog stick movement to the touchscreen.  It was either that or using the d-pad and neither method was a good replacement.  But that was just a port and I imagine if Nintendo had made a new Mario platformer instead it would have controlled more naturally.  The game was designed for something totally different.

I wonder if Mario for the Rev is going to play like we expect.  We've all assumed that the remote will be used in some way so will the game be drastically different to accomodate it?  Or perhaps our assumption is wrong and Mario will just be like we expect and the new IP is what is going to sell the concept?  How do you use the remote in a meaningful way for a Mario game and still have it feel like a Mario game?  Maybe the game uses the nunchuck and the remote is just the new way to swing the camera around so that you don't have to take your hand off any of the other buttons like Strell suggests.

Oh and I'm just going to say "cockmonger" since that seems to be the "in thing" right now.

[RiskyChris]

I agree with Ian =/

The SINGLE MOST ANNOYING THING EVER was using the GC shoulder button to try to lock on in zelda.  Hello analog threshold emulating digital response!

[Strell]

Oh good, Ian has a sense of humor.    That makes me want to take back all the mean-spirited things I tend to fling at him during more heated exchanges.

Well, almost fully anyway.  

Cockmonger.

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
Incidentally, what the hell mods?! Why do we have to spell g1mm1ck like some warez dudez not to get it changed like that?

And you still allow terms like cockmonger... care to explain that?

43rd time. "Do not parse Emoticons". Under "Reply to Topic"

[jasonditz]

That's all well and good if you're not using the Quick Reply box.

[MaryJane]

Mario is a good game! Don't hate on it! Nintendo is smart! They won't screw up the game! Even if it isn't the traditional mario you're looking for it will still be good! I like exclamation marks! I can't wait for the revolution! Viva la france! Viva liberty! Viva Revolution!

[pudu]

With all this debate over control I'm really very interested in how they decide to do it and after some serious thought I've come to the conclusion that...the next mario game will be awsome no matter what they freaking do! Viva la cockmonger!

[IceCold]

Quote
Viva la france!

Geez, get it right. Vive la France. Viva is Spanish

[nemo_83]

They need to take what they are doing with the New Mario Bros on DS and do that on Revolution using the new controller.

One way to do it is the nunchuck using the remote to control the camera.

Another way is to move dual remotes up and down as if running in Donkey Konga; it would be the first game giving the player complete control over both arms.

I would like to control the characters with one remote and the camera with another.  

[KDR_11k]

Another way is to move dual remotes up and down as if running in Donkey Konga; it would be the first game giving the player complete control over both arms.

Except Mario doesn't use his arms much. In Katamari Damacy it makes sense to control the arms but not in a Mario game.

[BigJim]

Boy I'm late... anyway I agree with someone way back who said replacing digital controls with movement is a bad idea. One of the main "disconnects" I've had with this controller was the thought of replacing simple button functions with motions. That's kinda lame. But I could see it being used best as an analog replacement.

For example... Table Tennis (or Mario Tennis). It might be fun to use movement to move your character forward/back/left/right, but still use the button to swing the racket or paddle. As long as the character can keep up with arm movements, then it's a good simulation.

But in a real Mario game... use a button to jump, and controller movement could determine the type of jump... how high or how far, or some other type of action. Like maybe if you slam the controller downward while he's in the air, that would make him do the stomp or some other new trick.  

[RiskyChris]

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
But in a real Mario game, use a button to jump and controller movement could determine the type of jump... how high or how far, or some other type of action. Like maybe if you slam the controller downward while he's in the air, that would make him do the stomp or some other new trick.

Okay that's a really awesome idea =)

[KDR_11k]

Yes but only as long as there isn't just a number of different jumps that are triggered digitally with different gestures.

[animecyberrat]

Using the revmote on its own might not work for Mario, but maybe using the nun chuck or shell could work for that game. I think we could use the analog stick and revmote together to make Mario work, you would have the A button for Jump and the analog stick for movement and you could then use the motion controls to do things like fire balls (flick your wrist and toss a fireball) or for picking up turtle shells (motion like your gonna pick it up and he grabs it, well you might need to hold the B button to do that also, but it could work, you just sweep the revmote and he picks up the turtle shell or whatever item it is you want to pick up.)


Then you map the shoulder buttons to triggers like in Mario 64, you jump and press B trigger on bottom of the remote to do a  butt attack. you could use forward jambs to make Mario punch or for swinging, its possible to use the gyros for good game play but not to make the jumping a flick of the wrist, but there are other ways to use the technology and add to the game play. Now if Nintendo decides to make it like Mario sunshine where you have water pack and you doing things like spraying in SMS, you would see the remote used with the analog stick combo move Mario and aim your water gun, but I SERIOUSLY hope they don’t make it another water pack game.

[Strell]

....

Wait a minute..


People thought...you WOULDN'T USE THE NUNCHUCK ATTACHMENT WITH A GAME LIKE MARIO?

...

My faith in humanity is rapidly falling....  

[Guitar Smasher]

I'd actually like 2 Marios, one in 2D, one in 3D.  I think it would be cool if for the 2D one, you hold the revmote sideways as if it were an NES controller.  Now I believe SMW only used 3 buttons, so the third could be mapped to the B button on the back.  Imagine what it would be like to have a classic Mario sidescroller with sprites or high-polygon models in the foreground, and high-resolution pictures in the background, like what's being done in Tetris DS.  It's a bit of a novelty, but I think it would be cool nonetheless.